Balanced ways to reduce Enforcer and Soldier mass pvp/pvm surviviability?

[Ciex]

Lower run speed! There is nothing wrong with enfs and solds having great standing power. They are tanks after all. The problem is run speed, especially on enfs. AMS/TMS also shoul have some negative RS, like enfs HP buffs.

[Moonbolt]

I think that they are fine in mass PvP, however I would like to see evade debuff on MuIB. Something like -500 evades. I mean it is supposed to be trade of speed for uber HP =)

PS: also make ICH completely wipe doc's nano and it'll be a start in the right direction :P

u realy dont have a clue how an enf builds itself to tank stuff right?
AAD and evades are worth 100x more then HP for an enf.
if Muib had a -500 evade buff i would stop suing Muib while tanking raids even.
having 40k health or 65k health isnt all that big off a difference if u can dodge eery second hit with 40k health

[Vetusleet]

exactly... having good defense and 70k HP in PvM is retarded... especially with docs having 100k heal.

IMO tanking is just to easy like this. You have every right to have your oppinion about it tho.

[Hacre]

it dont have difrence if nt uses doubles or triplas on soldier both kills solja very fast. most NTs uses triplas in mass pvp like in bs because they want solo kills

It makes a huge difference. Instead of saying silly things about a profession you know little about other than they have nukes that hurt you, go and learn some more and you'll figure out quickly why NTs shouldn't spam triples against anyone, least of all Soldiers.

It never fails to amuse when you fill up a Soldiers NCU with debuffs and then they come and whine on forums that all that needs to happen to kill a soldier is stand there pressing triple.

I've been more than reasonable with my suggested NT changes, even in this very thread where I've offered what I feel is a good idea that Soldiers reflects don't get nerfed against everyone when an NT pushes a button and you're still bleating about Triples.

Like I said. If you and by you I now mean you Perskules, get killed by an NT that's only pressing the triple button then I'm emailing Funcom to report an ebayed account because quite simply, I know you're better than that. At least you were.

[NoGoal]

@ OP: What enforcer in his right mind would imub in mass PvP?

hehe I even used it several times on BS. Get all RS buffs+rage+proc and you don't have too much issues with running. At tara most enfos use iMUB too because you do'nt have to move too much and you usually have blockers+docs.

I think that they are fine in mass PvP, however I would like to see evade debuff on MuIB. Something like -500 evades. I mean it is supposed to be trade of speed for uber HP =)

I had the same idea in mind, well -500 def and remove the snare.

[Hacre]

I had the same idea in mind, well -500 def and remove the snare.

Seriously? Ridiculous HP with that run speed and difficulty to crowd control?

Enforcer would be out of range by the time CB has recharged, let alone had a chance to cancel the SL Essence with the nemesis nano.

[NoGoal]

Well it could also debuff NR for all I care. It would make PvE harder and less good in duels. It doesn't need to be balanced just for NTs anyway.

Running away is the best def enforcers have, you can't complain about that. Especially since you have roots enforcers can't break with rage.

I always wanted to know what happened in the mind of the dev who had the idea to make NTs (the ultimate casting prof) the nemesis of enfos, the best nano resist prof.

[Hacre]

Well it could also debuff NR for all I care. It would make PvE harder and less good in duels. It doesn't need to be balanced just for NTs anyway.

Running away is the best def enforcers have, you can't complain about that. Especially since you have roots enforcers can't break with rage.

I always wanted to know what happened in the mind of the dev who had the idea to make NTs (the ultimate casting prof) the nemesis of enfos, the best nano resist prof.

Well I mentioned NTs since out of the professions capable of crowd control, NTs have the best "chance" of stopping an Enforcer.

To be honest I find the only thing that really tips the balance too far from the NT's favour is the 20% root resist item, it's irritatingly effective (unless I'm being a noob about Enforcer toolset and there's other items they use that add root resist as well). Cast caps on the SL roots and against an Enforcer's NR, the requirement of using CB should be enough difficulty. There's nothing like the adrenaline rush hoping the Enforcer hasn't spotted you during CB cast or hasn't reached you by the time the SL root casts, then hoping it actually lands.

Then again I'm thinking in ideal world terms where crowd control is useful and doesn't have retardedly long durations.

But yeah, NT the nemesis of Enforcers in the current climate is pretty funny. But only with -all- the "recent" Enforcer changes, I feel. Prior, it could be made to work if the NT used some grey matter.

[Gatester]

Seriously? Ridiculous HP with that run speed and difficulty to crowd control?

Enforcer would be out of range by the time CB has recharged, let alone had a chance to cancel the SL Essence with the nemesis nano.

If the SL/DB essence lines lost the RS buff, perhaps it would be fair to lock out the use of Rage then. Enforcers would then be choosing between capped RS, inits, and nice NR or massive amounts of health.

You dont own an NT or soldier do you? they kill is in 2 tripples or 3.. without defence against them lol

ANyway we soldiers are front line assault class, yes we are ment to take dmg
Supports are what makes us last, this is Notum wars. Now get some experience

As far as the first part:

25k health soldier at Tarasque can take several doubles and then get healed by the support.
13k health actually squishy prof (like a crat) gets hit with a double and a triple and can die before he gets healed.

Soldiers will not die because of a single NT with healing support.



Now more on topic, soldiers and enfs are front line fighters, and you think they should be able to have their current level of survival with a support prof assisting them. I think the same thing too quite often, I am just not sure if it is fair to be nearly invincible, and in pvm, which isn't really being discussed yet, it is far too easy.

[NoGoal]

Well I mentioned NTs since out of the professions capable of crowd control, NTs have the best "chance" of stopping an Enforcer.

Actually it feels like traders has the more chances. They have high AR on their roots and with 1 drain they can lock your rage.

I'm not even sure if the hud really works as I often get chain rooted but that's just bad luck I hope.

[Hacre]

Actually it feels like traders has the more chances. They have high AR on their roots and with 1 drain they can lock your rage.

I'm not even sure if the hud really works as I often get chain rooted but that's just bad luck I hope.

Hehe. I'm sure if we take your experiences of being rooted and my experiences of trying to root an Enforcer, somewhere in the middle is probably closest to reality.

[Perskules]

It makes a huge difference. Instead of saying silly things about a profession you know little about other than they have nukes that hurt you, go and learn some more and you'll figure out quickly why NTs shouldn't spam triples against anyone, least of all Soldiers.

It never fails to amuse when you fill up a Soldiers NCU with debuffs and then they come and whine on forums that all that needs to happen to kill a soldier is stand there pressing triple.

I've been more than reasonable with my suggested NT changes, even in this very thread where I've offered what I feel is a good idea that Soldiers reflects don't get nerfed against everyone when an NT pushes a button and you're still bleating about Triples.

Like I said. If you and by you I now mean you Perskules, get killed by an NT that's only pressing the triple button then I'm emailing Funcom to report an ebayed account because quite simply, I know you're better than that. At least you were.

i have met lots NTs on bs who jsut hit nbg, root and tripla, tripla, tripla and can really do anything becasuse cant last guard time, before that big nano pool buff atleast got change. many dont even bother use blinds.
there are some good NTs too and i dont blame thems just stupid becasuse noobs can hit so much samage in short time and really cant do anything against it.
just stupid ppl just say get more hp and nr. yeah right have tried that 28k self hp and 3050nr and NT/trad not even notice it, all came in on first cast without nr debuffs

[Hacre]

i have met lots NTs on bs who jsut hit nbg, root and tripla, tripla, tripla and can really do anything becasuse cant last guard time, before that big nano pool buff atleast got change. many dont even bother use blinds.
there are some good NTs too and i dont blame thems just stupid becasuse noobs can hit so much samage in short time and really cant do anything against it.
just stupid ppl just say get more hp and nr. yeah right have tried that 28k self hp and 3050nr and NT/trad not even notice it, all came in on first cast without nr debuffs

NBG lasts for 25 seconds.
3 second recharge, 22 seconds.
4.5 second recharge on root, 17.5 seconds.
2 second cast time before any damage is done, 15.5 seconds.
5.5 second recharge, 10 seconds.
2 second cast time before any more damage is done, 8 seconds.
5.5 second recharge, 2.5 seconds.
2 second cast time for the third triple, 0.5 seconds left on NBG.

Now all the NT's nano and reflects are gone. Bye bye. You claimed 28k HP. Even assuming perfect conditions of NINE THOUSAAAAND point triple hits, 3 triples still isn't enough. Given that on average triples are more likely to hit anywhere from 5k to 7.5k in PvP -total-...

I think you can see where this is going. Above, you have perfect conditions for the NT. By perfect, I mean:

The root didn't break on any of those triples. Given the root can break on each triple tick, that is highly, highly, HIGHLY unlikely. 25% chance to break on attack, so almost a certain chance a triple will break the root. So if the NT doesn't want you getting away, factor in at least another 4.5s recharge. This is also assuming you the Soldier haven't used any of the plethora of root removal options at your disposal (or root resist if your MotR is up).

It also assumes you haven't used any form of healing.

It also assumes you're just standing there taking it, instead of pumping damage back into the NT. 40k nanopool or not, the damage a Soldier puts out can easily sap that away. 40k nanopool does not equal 40k HP. The NT still takes damage while under NBG and for every point of damage you do, it takes away between 2 points of nano (Atrox) to 1.5 points of nano (Nanomage). A 30% cap on my NT is around 4.5k or so. For an Atrox that's ~9k nano gone, for Soli/Opi that's ~7.8k nano gone and for Nanomage that's 6.7k nano gone. Burst/Full Auto? That's half the pool and upwards, gone. Now add in regulars and perks before your next burst 9s later and full auto 11s later. Don't forget as well that damage to nano doesn't discriminate against damage types like absorbs do. Yeah, NBG sure does last the full 25s against a Soldier if all the NT has done is pop NBG, rooted you and stood there spamming the triple button.

Not.

To emphasise: AGAINST YOUR 28K HP, WITH YOU NOT FIGHTING BACK, ROOTS NEVER BREAKING AND -EVERY- TRIPLE HITTING YOU FOR 9K DAMAGE, YOU STILL WON'T DIE AND NOW THE NT HAS NO NANO.

So, as I said. If you're getting owned by idiots standing there doing nothing other than pressing this apparent IWIN combination of buttons, you're doing something terribly, terribly wrong. NTs that consistently tank and spank Soldiers (like mine, for the record) are using more of their toolset than any of the mouth breathing trolls that come whining on these forums about noobie OP professions give them any credit for.

Essentially, stop lying/exaggerating about how terrible Soldiers have it in PvP vs NTs. There is no "but if there's someone with the NT I'll die" because you're 2v1, what makes you think you -should- survive when outnumbered? I've already, again, suggested that the pierce reflect need only pierce radiation, solving that little dilemma for you as well.

If you want to be taken seriously, in fact if you want anyone to be taken seriously in these forums, at least stop posting drivel about what actually happens in PvP. Because neither you, nor any Soldier with a brain, is getting spanked by triple spamming Ofab armour packing "triple naabs". Ever.

I don't know what I find more irritating, that people actually believe this utter tripe, or the fact that YOU, Perskules, are trying to sell it, because I know full well that standing in front of YOUR soldier doing nothing but the things you claim, will result in a trip back to reclaim/decon with you at around 50% HP.

[Perskules]

main point is fc should do some balance le nukes/br/gth and stuff.
like engi rippers are good example how it should work it dont take all defences down. still leaves some reflect if ams up.
nukes should got 50% reflect piercing so soldier without ams getting hitted full dam of it and with ams little lower and still good NTs can take soljas down if know what hes doing.
same with br. takes 50% reflect from soldier and gives 50% to trader back.
and gth make it nanodrain only and remove -nd part of it.
and agents whining about RI. make longer recharge on it. 3s or 5s so cant spam anymore.
and keepers loosing auras when shade landing nano. make it take active auras off like 15s and nut dont delete base nano from ncu.
fc have make all those thing too powerfull. taked long enought to raelise with crat stun procs. and they messed it up when removing them and not really giving anything back. better fix should be shorter duration of stuns like 3-4s and not stacking,
and now planning nerf As/fa combo. taking away 30% of soldier and fixer alpha and giving nothing back? and melees still can keep AS swap. so without heal nerf healers become god. and with heal nerf they should nerf all profs damage.

[Moonbolt]

Hehe. I'm sure if we take your experiences of being rooted and my experiences of trying to root an Enforcer, somewhere in the middle is probably closest to reality.

aye ur prolly correct hacre.. ive found that its undescribable anoying to get rooted and not being able to rage out of the root.
im not 100% sure but i noticed while fightng NTs that there seem to be some kind of rage removal nano aswell that actually prevents u from using rage for 10 secs or so.
isnt it kinda fair imo that this is the way to stop enforcers from raging out of the roots instead of specialized burden that can be chain cast.
well that wasnt what i had planned to type bu anyhow.
ive noticed tho that even tho i get rooted quite alot by NTs i rarely get chain rooted.
its probably NR or the root resist items helping there.

[NoGoal]

main point is fc should do some balance le nukes/br/gth and stuff.

FC had to add OP nanos to nerf OP defences. Nerfing OP defenses would have been a better choice but they were too chicken to do it and they are kinda used to fix old stuff by adding new OP stuff anyway.

[NoGoal]

ive noticed tho that even tho i get rooted quite alot by NTs i rarely get chain rooted.
its probably NR or the root resist items helping there.

Traders not NTs!

[Mastablasta]

Soldiers should be invincible one man armies capable of killing everything solo and tanking any damage, never ever needing to even contemplate teamwork

Could it be that these changes are more in line with ENCOURAGING teamwork in pvp?

[Perskules]

Could it be that these changes are more in line with ENCOURAGING teamwork in pvp?

i meaned overal balance not only soldier.
dont even play solja much anymore, pvm farm and random bs.
playing mp in mass pvp.
on soldier sitting root/snare/blind all time

[Hacre]

aye ur prolly correct hacre.. ive found that its undescribable anoying to get rooted and not being able to rage out of the root.
im not 100% sure but i noticed while fightng NTs that there seem to be some kind of rage removal nano aswell that actually prevents u from using rage for 10 secs or so.
isnt it kinda fair imo that this is the way to stop enforcers from raging out of the roots instead of specialized burden that can be chain cast.

ive noticed tho that even tho i get rooted quite alot by NTs i rarely get chain rooted.
its probably NR or the root resist items helping there.

You kinda answered your own question there. NTs can't afford to stand around spamming cast capped at 1s/4.5s recharging roots when they're the -only- profession with a single threaded method of combat, debuffing and defense. Spamming a root on you? Not doing any damage. Spamming a root on you? Not able to put my main defenses up. Spamming a root on you? Can't debuff you.

Consider only being able to execute one perk at a time, unable to press the next perk button until the first one has executed and have that lock out your regular swings, specials and defensive nanos as well. Then you've some idea of the juggling NTs have to do and you also have some idea of why the nukes NTs cast, hit as hard as they do when they cast them.

Yes I know NTs can technically perk as well as cast stuff, but the perks NTs have access to are either negligible damage, so handy to throw in along with a nuke, or are so slow either the target or the NT are dead before anything meaningful lands.

NTs have -one- awesome perk for PvP and it's not even exclusive to them, Dazzle with Lights and it costs 10 perks to get the best out of it. Supernova is technically good on paper, but because it has a slow execution time, as well as needing 2 other slow executing perks to land as well, fights are usually done with before Supernova even gets clicked.