crats aren't getting enough of an NR boost to make up for losing AAD + NR

[SSK]

Overall it seems like most support profs are happy with the removal of AAD from NR perk checks though.

Because "most support profs" will be the ones landing these perks and crats "AAD dependant prof" will be on receiving side. OP was all about that, if we have our single defense (read AAD) removed from perk checks, we should get compensation in others (read more NR).

[Questra]

Because "most support profs" will be the ones landing these perks and crats "AAD dependant prof" will be on receiving side. OP was all about that, if we have our single defense (read AAD) removed from perk checks, we should get compensation in others (read more NR).

Well, you'll be taking less damage from combat profs, and more from support profs. With Contemplation at your fingertips, which are you more afraid of at the moment?

To paraphrase what you just said, "if you're going to have your single defense (read AAD) relatively increased on AI perk checks, what small sacrifice are you prepared to make?"

Apparently none at all. Keep in mind you'll be landing those perks on people easier yourself.

[Raynefists]

Well, you'll be taking less damage from combat profs, and more from support profs. With Contemplation at your fingertips, which are you more afraid of at the moment?

To paraphrase what you just said, "if you're going to have your single defense (read AAD) relatively increased on AI perk checks, what small sacrifice are you prepared to make?"

Apparently none at all. Keep in mind you'll be landing those perks on people easier yourself.

according to the docs released by means, AI perks are having their def checks lowered to compensate for losing double counting of AAO so that they are still easy to land. Crats will also be losing a large amount of AR on many of their own perks.

So really this is pretty much just a negative for crats. They'll be taking more damage from support profs, the same from combat profs, and doing less damage themselves.

I don't think just slapping more passive NR on crat perk lines is a solution though. For one, its brittle. New patch comes out with a nano skill item that raises everyone's nano AR by 40 and suddenly crats break. Crats need a more permanent defensive solution beyond simply relying on passive defense skills.

[SSK]

according to the docs released by means, AI perks are having their def checks lowered to compensate for losing double counting of AAO so that they are still easy to land. Crats will also be losing a large amount of AR on many of their own perks.

So really this is pretty much just a negative for crats. They'll be taking more damage from support profs, the same from combat profs, and doing less damage themselves.

I don't think just slapping more passive NR on crat perk lines is a solution though. For one, its brittle. New patch comes out with a nano skill item that raises everyone's nano AR by 40 and suddenly crats break. Crats need a more permanent defensive solution beyond simply relying on passive defense skills.

Pretty much this, but seeing only perk changes doc, it's logical to ask for some more NR compensation. When more balance features will be revealed, we'll comment them too, but until then we were nerfed / boosted less than others with perk changes.

[Sterva]

How? Don't you have the highest passive def of all the support professions?

Nope!

The entire point of this change is to make these perks easier to land. If they gave you enough NR to completely make up for the lost AAD then they would change precisely nothing.

If crats aren't survivable enough after this change(likely), then that's another argument that should be addressed separately.

I see this differently. I have trouble imagining that the sole purpose of this change is for crats to become perkable by these perks. I think that the purpose is for all of the other profs that have enough general AAD to be not perkable, but who's defense clearly aren't built entirely around AAD to become perkable.

My argument is strengthened by the fact that they are adding NR to crats, for no other ostensible reason, except to increase the chances that we won't get perked.

But they aren't adding enough NR to make a difference, which is why I made this thread.

[Sterva]

And, while I agree that crats need a more permanent defensive solution, FC has thusfar _completely ignored_ every request by crats for such a fix.

[ragerayden]

And, while I agree that crats need a more permanent defensive solution, FC has thusfar _completely ignored_ every request by crats for such a fix.

It's not an easy matter to deal with.
I bet they are doing their very best >.> ....

[sultryvoltron]

And, while I agree that crats need a more permanent defensive solution, FC has thusfar _completely ignored_ every request by crats for such a fix.

You have _no idea_ if that's true or not.

[Hacre]

If crats aren't survivable enough after this change(likely), then that's another argument that should be addressed separately.

No, it's a discussion to have now, in the rebalancing discussion forums, where we discuss proposed changes as well as suggesting other changes or different/better solutions.

Nothing is set in stone which is the whole point of these forums.

My two cents on the perk changes however is that aao counting twice against one lot of aad with Attack Modifier as the attack skill was kinda stupid and an obvious bug that's finally being fixed. It also makes sense that things checking NR don't have aad counted, or aao (CoNC needs fixing still in this regard).

This does as Sterva rightly points out, create an issue for Crats with the only damage mitigation still being buttloads of aad. As he says as well, I think this is better resolved by looking at other parts of the Crat toolset rather than keeping the Crat as a one trick pony when it comes to defense.

What that solution is though, I've no idea. Hence these forums.

[Klod9000]

Nope!

Yeah, my mistake. I forgot about SoZ MPs (LOL?).

But they aren't adding enough NR to make a difference

Maybe that's the whole idea.

[Hacre]

Yeah, my mistake. I forgot about SoZ MPs (LOL?).

You also forgot Fixers.

By the way where's your thread on boosting pets as part of this whole balancing act so that SoZ MPs are actually viable as a pet+casting profession? Especially as it'd probably lend some credence to making pets important for, you know, pet professions as opposed to them being nice if they're around to bolster your otherwise shoehorned offense, that's been shoehorned in because pets suck.

[Klod9000]

You also forgot Fixers.

Fixers are combat profession.

By the way where's your thread on boosting pets as part of this whole balancing act so that SoZ MPs are actually viable as a pet+casting casting profession?

We got something on that part, if I'm not mistaken.

[Hacre]

Fixers are combat profession.

This is not a cut and dry definition of Fixers and you know it. They're as much a support profession as say, Crats are. I know I certainly want Fixers around to support me in mass PvP. Trust me, I'm not going by what symbiants they can equip, here.

Combat professions can dish out wicked amounts of reliable damage (hi there Enforcers, Soldiers, NTs, MAs and Shades) that rely on Support professions when their situational defenses have run out (hi there people who can crowd control, heal, remove debuffs on others, boost the defenses of others, boost the attack skills of others, immediately evacuate others, boost other various capacities of others).

I bet Fixers fit more criteria in the latter than the former. HoTs, Wake Up Call, NCU buffs, runspeed buffs, snares, roots, with WUC, NCU buffs and runspeed buffs not being insignificantly sized boosts.

Wielding a weapon does not a combat profession make. The amount of HP a Fixer can achieve alone, even if they go for a HP setup, excludes them from being an all out Combat profession.

[Klod9000]

This is not a cut and dry definition of Fixers and you know it. They're as much a support profession as say, Crats are. I know I certainly want Fixers around to support me in mass PvP. Trust me, I'm not going by what symbiants they can equip, here.

Combat professions can dish out wicked amounts of reliable damage (hi there Enforcers, Soldiers, NTs, MAs and Shades) that rely on Support professions when their situational defenses have run out (hi there people who can crowd control, heal, remove debuffs on others, boost the defenses of others, boost the attack skills of others, boost other various capacities of others).

I bet Fixers fit more criteria in the latter than the former. HoTs, Wake Up Call, NCU buffs, runspeed buffs, snares, roots, with WUC, NCU buffs and runspeed buffs not being insignificantly sized boosts.

Wielding a weapon does not a combat profession make.

By your definition, everyone is a support profession then.

[Hacre]

By your definition, everyone is a support profession then.

Nope not at all. Stop the straw manning already. Because otherwise, MPs are a combat profession by your own logic. Are they? No.

Let's make it simple though. I've given you my argument as to why I believe Fixers certainly very much fit the Support profession role, why do you feel they fit the Combat profession role better?

[Klod9000]

Nope not at all. Stop the straw manning already. Because otherwise, MPs are a combat profession by your own logic. Are they? No.

Well, you can't say that because I didn't give any definition, yet.

Let's make it simple though. I've given you my argument as to why I believe Fixers certainly very much fit the Support profession role, why do you feel they fit the Combat profession role better?

Because they have decent AR template, they go *pew pew*, they have clearly defined weapon build toolset - perks/nanos/symbiants (combat profession's feature in this game), they don't actually support team actively as true support professions do...

We are getting OT.

[Hacre]

Because they have decent AR template, they go *pew pew*, they have clearly defined weapon build toolset - perks/nanos/symbiants (combat profession's feature in this game), they don't actually support team actively as true support professions do...

We are getting OT.

Ok, you got me on the AR template, I completely forgot about that.

Not strictly OT, as it was brought up that Crats aren't the Support profession with the highest passive defenses and I'm seriously hoping that wasn't a comparison to SoZ MPs.

Fixers are definitely at least a hybrid of the two. They don't have the HP of your typical combat profession, Traders are a Support profession yet they also have a clearly defined weapon build toolset around Shotgun, MPs have been shoehorned into Bow (and I do think you should have full access to the bow perk lines because of this, the names escape me) and they certainly have a comparable number of buffs/debuffs/debuff removers/crowd control that you expect of a typical Support profession..

So...hell by both our definitions we're both sort of right?!

Sterva tell us who the hell you were thinking of already.

[Klod9000]

So...hell by both our definitions we're both sort of right?!

Sterva tell us who the hell you were thinking of already.

This.

Even tho, I think traders are some sort of a hybrid, not fixers.

[Hacre]

This.

Even tho, I think traders are some sort of a hybrid, not fixers.

Nah.

The reason I say nah, becomes clear if you look at it from a pairing/teaming point of view.

Pair a Fixer with a Soldier or an NT. Fixer isn't going to score the majority of damage, nor is the Trader or even really compete. However they will facilitate those deaths occurring quicker.

Essentially I guess I classify a Combat profession as a prof who's main strength is damage dealing or tanking and a Support profession as a prof who's main strength is facilitating those Combat profession strengths to another degree.

That's not to suggest that Support professions shouldn't be incapable of killing in their own right, of course. Hey I could be completely wrong, but that's how I see it.

EDIT: However as I recently stated in a conversation, there's obviously a line between "combat" and "support" and varying professions have varying distances from that line, in a graph of grey.

Fixers, imo, err near combat, but on the support side of that line.

[Sterva]

The distinction between support and combat professions is pretty damn murky in my opinion, especially with profs like MPs getting noobcannons and blockers.

Specifically, I was thinking of Fixers, who are very support like IMHO. However, since the distinction between support and non-support professions has never ever been helpful in any discussions of balance anyways, I'm will to abandon my point and reduce my statement just to, there are other profs out there with more passive defense, support or otherwise.