When are you going to rebalance Shades

[mr_road]

Is there a readme somewhere explaining how perks work, how they scale, etc etc etc?

not that i've seen.

i look at the data in auno.org (where it is up to date).

for defense checks i use what i read on the message board (although never actually formally tested it)

its (Attack Skill * percentage) + AAO vs (Defense Skill*percentage) + AAD

eg. exultation has a 35% evade close check (don't panic people, its a very small dd and heal perk). so with 3k AR, if it was percentage * (evade close + AAD), then someone would need 8570 defense rating to 'evade' and it gets resisted by fixers and crats with def perks most of the time. with the defense skill*percentage + AAD being the check, fixers with 2.8k evade (with DoF up) and 2.5k AAD (rough numbers) would have 3.48k 'defense rating'.


For scaling...

if the damage scales on the number of perks in the line, then it will show it on the page.

if the damage scales by the attack skill, then when you search for the perk name you will get multiple entries.

eg - hecatomb: http://auno.org/ao/db.php?cmd=search&name=hecatomb

The Nano formulas are the DoT cast by the different tiers of the perk.

The entries in Armor define the damage done by the perk. The tiers go from 1 to 1000, 1001 to 2000, 2001 to 3000, where:

1st ql 1 item: damage at skill 1
1st ql 500 item: damage at skill 1000
2nd ql 1: skill 1001
2nd ql 500: skill 2000
3rd ql 1: 2001
3rd ql 500: 3000

eq. if piercing skill is 2500, then the perk damage tier you are in is 3rd one. divide by 2 to get the ql of the third tier item (250), click on the 3rd ql 500 item, enter 250 at the ql and that should be the damage done by the perk.

[Ciex]

I cant understand why my pvm crat has more AR than my pvm shade, does more pvm dmg, is better in pvp and is much more deserved pvm and pvp team member

[Hacre]

I cant understand why my pvm crat has more AR than my pvm shade, does more pvm dmg...

Perhaps you should work on your Shade. PvM Crats are very good DD, but they're not the best.

[SoldiTwo]

Perhaps you should work on your Shade. PvM Crats are very good DD, but they're not the best.

I too have a 220 Crat and a 220 Shade and most of the time I easily OD the Shades(incl. my own Shade) with my semi equipped Crat. My Shade has the best possible equipment.

Imho a Crat should never do more damage than supposed damage profs like Shades if they are on the same level.

[Hacre]

I too have a 220 Crat and a 220 Shade and most of the time I easily OD the Shades(incl. my own Shade) with my semi equipped Crat. My Shade has the best possible equipment.

Imho a Crat should never do more damage than supposed damage profs like Shades if they are on the same level.

Is this since the Shade perks got unnerfed? When my Crat was set up for PvM DD, he did OD Shades until the Shade perk chains and behind target reqs were changed.

That was of course with 275 Pere and the Dread pistol and pre nanodamage proc, however.

[Graftmage]

Is this since the Shade perks got unnerfed? When my Crat was set up for PvM DD, he did OD Shades until the Shade perk chains and behind target reqs were changed.

That did not change shade damage output at all, though.
/me is missing the shade dance ;(

[Hacre]

That did not change shade damage output at all, though.
/me is missing the shade dance ;(

Um yeah it did, because in raid situations you could continue the perk chain on the next mob due to the "must have previous perk running on target" change.

It did something, because I went from ODing Shades with Charmming, to not ODing Shades. With that patch.

[Mountaingoat]

The workload is so much higher for shades when it comes to dd than for crats/engs. Imo shades should be way out in front, not just barely in front of other professions. The damage of our perks hasn't been adjusted since the release of SL, and I'd like to see them get a bit more umpf or maybe a new perk or two after hecatomb (most shades don't use the first two PM perks anyway).

[Stinnipeng]

All I see here is "crat this, shade that...".

What about having a showdown?

One big dummy with infinite HP, 10 minute timer and two perfect geared/specced chars?
The playstyle between crats and shades are very different...
Not just anyone can go from playing a crat where they press "pet attack" and a shade who has to do speed before joining a pande raid...

[Graftmage]

It did something, because I went from ODing Shades with Charmming, to not ODing Shades. With that patch.

*bad shades then You could always pick the right mob to perk. It was very rarely to **** up a perkline in ordinary PvM raiding (DD wars or PvP is another story, ofc).
Besides, with PM perks, you could always continue chain on the next mob (perkline is divided into three sub chains) and TR never required shade to be behind.

Shades should OD everyone by at least 50% (and I believe, it was true when they were first introduced). Shade does not give anything other than DD to the team, all other classes with high damage output have additional "features" (calms, reflects, heals, init debuffs).

[SoldiTwo]

Is this since the Shade perks got unnerfed? When my Crat was set up for PvM DD, he did OD Shades until the Shade perk chains and behind target reqs were changed.

That was of course with 275 Pere and the Dread pistol and pre nanodamage proc, however.

It was after the changes to the perks.

*bad shades then You could always pick the right mob to perk. It was very rarely to **** up a perkline in ordinary PvM raiding (DD wars or PvP is another story, ofc).
Besides, with PM perks, you could always continue chain on the next mob (perkline is divided into three sub chains) and TR never required shade to be behind.

Shades should OD everyone by at least 50% (and I believe, it was true when they were first introduced). Shade does not give anything other than DD to the team, all other classes with high damage output have additional "features" (calms, reflects, heals, init debuffs).

Yeah - the dance was tricky, but the perklines were no problem.

I wouldn't say at by least 50% but imho something is definitely wrong, if shades are very often behind a crat in dmg.

[Odov]

Shade balancing:

* New lines of SHD for levels 0-219
* Interpolated QLs on Medi-Blade for levels XXX-219
* Lower defensive check on perks (70-80%?)
* Overall damage increase in all perk lines to bring shades to proper 2009 damage output
* Increase perk execution times

With the new defensive check paired with the longer execution times this could result in a more reliable steady alpha for more breeds in PvP, without being able to take down any profession in heartbeat. The execution times should allow for shades to have a slight or insignificant boost in damage, with reliability being the main advantage.

PvM would benefit by the increased damage of the perk lines (more than PvP), as well as survivability for lower level shades through the use of medi-blades and SHD. Possible disadvantage vs low HP mobs due to execution times. Increased damage should make up for this though.

[Hacre]

Shade balancing:

* New lines of SHD for levels 0-219
* Interpolated QLs on Medi-Blade for levels XXX-219
* Lower defensive check on perks (70-80%?)
* Overall damage increase in all perk lines to bring shades to proper 2009 damage output
* Increase perk execution times

With the new defensive check paired with the longer execution times this could result in a more reliable steady alpha for more breeds in PvP, without being able to take down any profession in heartbeat. The execution times should allow for shades to have a slight or insignificant boost in damage, with reliability being the main advantage.

PvM would benefit by the increased damage of the perk lines (more than PvP), as well as survivability for lower level shades through the use of medi-blades and SHD. Possible disadvantage vs low HP mobs due to execution times. Increased damage should make up for this though.

I don't think more damage for Shades should come with an increased perk execution time. Shades are obviously a pure damage output profession. That should be what you're good at. As you say your damage output hasn't really scaled much and it should.

[-XeI20-]

I refuse to change my melee adv to ranged b/c of the 80% check lameness of pistol perks....I'm completely opposed to Shade dmg perks having anything other then 100% checks...To think that someone would actually want their Shade to play just as lamely as a ranged adv....

[Hacre]

I refuse to change my melee adv to ranged b/c of the 80% check lameness of pistol perks....I'm completely opposed to Shade dmg perks having anything other then 100% checks...To think that someone would actually want their Shade to play just as lamely as a ranged adv....

Well I've already made my suggestions about the 80% pistol perks for advies. I don't see anything wrong in Shade perks having a 90% check to offset their lack of AR compared to everyone else. They're already screwed on token boards which add a good chunk of AR, remember?

The fact that every decent PvP Shade is Atrox should say something.

[-XeI20-]

The fact that every decent PvP Shade is Atrox should say something.

It's says a great deal. I believe I've already outlined the best method towards alleviating this problem. Shades have tools to help them perk evade profs, the goal shouldn't be to negate these tools but improve them to where they're functional in a real and practical way.

I don't want to play a toon with 2 pokers and high dmg low check perks. I want to play a prof with effective tools that are necessary in order to unleash it's full potential.

[Hacre]

It's says a great deal. I believe I've already outlined the best method towards alleviating this problem. Shades have tools to help them perk evade profs, the goal shouldn't be to negate these tools but improve them to where they're functional in a real and practical way.

I don't want to play a toon with 2 pokers and high dmg low check perks. I want to play a prof with effective tools that are necessary in order to unleash it's full potential.

And as well you should.

I forget the name of the perk but Shades have a low(ish?) check perk that debuffs defense and buffs Shade attack rating...is it Blur? This could be strengthened. Decent Shades used to run that on my Crat then run the drains on my pets and they could perk me if I didn't have my defense perks available.

[-XeI20-]

And as well you should.

I forget the name of the perk but Shades have a low(ish?) check perk that debuffs defense and buffs Shade attack rating...is it Blur? This could be strengthened. Decent Shades used to run that on my Crat then run the drains on my pets and they could perk me if I didn't have my defense perks available.

I believe you may be talking about blur. It however does not buff our offense. It debuffs aao/aad on the target and has a 95% check. The only active perks which buff a Shades AR are SP drains.

[Hacre]

I believe you may be talking about blur. It however does not buff our offense. It debuffs aao/aad on the target and has a 95% check. The only active perks which buff a Shades AR are SP drains.

That's the one. A 90% check at least if not less and a stronger debuff so that it scales with the aad that's been added since SL wouldn't go amiss for Shades. It'd certainly help, imho (correct me if I'm wrong) steering Shades away from the reliance of MR.

I want to see the Holy Mark perks get a 75% check for Keepers, I don't think it's that unreasonable for Blur to get a similar buff so that Shade perks are actually useful without the need for Mongo Rage. Not as low as 75% I add, because Keepers have nowhere near the access to alpha power as Shades, but 85-90% checks should be a step in the right direction.

Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on the numbers. I know Keepers and I only know Shades from the point of view of a Keeper under nemesis nano or an NT that can be perked by any Shade anyway. So if that 85% should be 75%, feel obligated to correct me and point it out and why.

[-XeI20-]

Well, it's all really relative according to how one wishes to tweak a perkline. As blur is atm, 220aao/aad debuff, a 50% check would be fine. However, as you're speaking of increasing the debuff power then a higher check would no doubt be needed.