General concerns

[Armus]

I have 3 accounts full of toons. I play every prof except shade atm.
Well used to play.

It's obvious that carefully tweaking items/nanos/other is NOT the way FC is going to go about this. Instead they opted for changing EVERYTHING at once and hoping it will play out well. How can FC or any of us know which way this will go? Who will be the new lovechilds and who will be the new suckers at the bottom of the food chain? How can you overlook this while changing so many variables at once?


I agree that it's pointless to cry at this stage but it's also pointless to put work into the game when you have no idea what things will be like.
Alot of ppl played this game for many years and personally, like myself I think they won't be interested in remaking their setups yet again. Or even rerolling just to be able to be competetive.

I'll check in every now and then to see how things play out. Until then I don't feel like playing and putting in time into something that may be a waste because some dev is clueless and FC's unwillingness to do this slowly like it should be.

Accound cancelled x3

/noobius

ps. Not "quitting". Just saying I'm not playing/paying for this.

pss. Yes this is a real concern about the way you go about this balancing act.
It has been said by many that it should be done carefully. This is not that.
This is the "wreckeverythingandrebuilditandhopeitturnsoutbette r" approach.
I think it could very well kill this game. Old users leaving in droves when they realize they have to remake ther toons yet again to play this "new game".
Hope you will listen at some point FC.

[jorricane]

I see your point, this shotgun approach to balance could concievably cuase some huge upheavals - but none of them really look to be "setup breaking". As it is now, people in many cases have been forced into what are really workaround or marginally exploitive setups to take advantage of poorly thought out/badly implemented perks.

From the point of view of having played most professions (except shade lol), I can say I'm happy with almost all the changes on the horizon - in fact in many cases I think they didn't change enough. Most of the changes seem to be the result of a lot of internal discussion, and theres nothing haphazard in the perks that I can see.

In fact, this list of perk changes and the possible future reintroduction of parry/riposte caused me to reactivate 2 of my 4 accounts (most closed for some months), with the third and fourth probably coming soon (depending on how many times I feel like completing Dark Ruins solo).

I agree with you entirely, I just have the opposite reaction - to be here with these groundbreaking changes underway is a priviledge worth paying for imo

[Mastablasta]

There was another thread with a guy saying pretty much the same thing "if you change the game so I have to change out of my forced-into perk setups, in order to become a much better and whole profession, I'll quit the game right now" ... it's not as if there's much of anything groundbreaking in the outlined changes. I personally don't think enough was actually changed. Far as I could tell, mainly the perks everyone was already using was made so they would work better. Nothing along the lines of making alternative setups viable, or making perklines difficult to choose between cropped up.

[Armus]

I see your point, this shotgun approach to balance could concievably cuase some huge upheavals - but none of them really look to be "setup breaking".

The changes to how aao is calced in perks alone is enough to make some profs unperkable again. Especially at lower levels. Which means those profs are back to being unkillable again. Ofcourse there may be other changes that will somehow compensate for this. But we don't know this. And that's the whole point. Given FC's track record of following up and balancing things they put IG i'm not holding my breath.

Remember SB+OS? It killed tl7 NW for over two years before FC FINALLY listened to the community and made the necessary changes.

This time we are looking at literally hundreds of changes to pretty much every aspect of the game.... As I said.. I'm not holding my breath.

As it is now, people in many cases have been forced into what are really workaround or marginally exploitive setups to take advantage of poorly thought out/badly implemented perks.

I agree somewhat. But the thing is. Noone knows if things will be better after all these changes. Noone knows what it will play out like.

From the point of view of having played most professions (except shade lol), I can say I'm happy with almost all the changes on the horizon - in fact in many cases I think they didn't change enough. Most of the changes seem to be the result of a lot of internal discussion, and theres nothing haphazard in the perks that I can see.

Then we see differently. I see already that so called support profs will be moving up the pvp ladder and the return of unperkable evaders. Now featuring blockers as well.

In fact, this list of perk changes and the possible future reintroduction of parry/riposte caused me to reactivate 2 of my 4 accounts (most closed for some months), with the third and fourth probably coming soon (depending on how many times I feel like completing Dark Ruins solo).

I agree with you entirely, I just have the opposite reaction - to be here with these groundbreaking changes underway is a priviledge worth paying for imo

I'm glad you like it. I hope you enjoy remaking your toons to be competetive. I know I won't.

[Parranoid1]

The changes to how aao is calced in perks alone is enough to make some profs unperkable again. Especially at lower levels. Which means those profs are back to being unkillable again.

the perk overview that means posted says in like the 2nd paragraph that the aao is gonna be counted once, but the easy landing perks that these were on will likely have a defence check reduction. so they will still hopefully be landable on evade profs like regular.

here ill find it:

When Attack Modifier is used as attack skill, Add All Offense (AAO) is
counted twice. This will no longer happen.
 Perks that have previously been easy to land because of this will
have a lower defense check.

[Armus]

There was another thread with a guy saying pretty much the same thing "if you change the game so I have to change out of my forced-into perk setups, in order to become a much better and whole profession, I'll quit the game right now" ... it's not as if there's much of anything groundbreaking in the outlined changes. I personally don't think enough was actually changed. Far as I could tell, mainly the perks everyone was already using was made so they would work better. Nothing along the lines of making alternative setups viable, or making perklines difficult to choose between cropped up.

Perhaps this will all turn out well sometime in the distant future.
Who knows. But personally I don't trust FC's judgement. They've proven over and over and over that they won't go back on their changes no matter how gamebreaking they are.

Want examples?

SB+OS: Killed tl7 NW for almost 3 years.
GTH: Disables half the profs IG at the push of one button.
NBS+triple: Kill any low, medium hp prof IG with one nuke from 40M if they go below 90% hp.

How can we expect them to give attention to detail when they are applying hundreds of changes at once when they take literally years to tweak really, really BIG stuff like those?

For me personally, initially changing the way aao is calced into some perks will have a very real effect on the the ammount of profs I will be able to kill. Perhaps this will be compensated for. But as I said. I'm not holding my breath for it and I don't want to pay for another 6 months of subscriptions x3 while FC is spitting out band aid fixes to fix the fixes.

[Armus]

the perk overview that means posted says in like the 2nd paragraph that the aao is gonna be counted once, but the easy landing perks that these were on will likely have a defence check reduction. so they will still hopefully be landable on evade profs like regular.

here ill find it:

When Attack Modifier is used as attack skill, Add All Offense (AAO) is
counted twice. This will no longer happen.
 Perks that have previously been easy to land because of this will
have a lower defense check.

I know. But there is no way to know how this will play out. There is no way to know how it plays out. And as I said. Not holding my breath for FC to come through.

[ninor]

As a general remark to the general concern...
The main question I ask myself; do i play the game to create and improve my character or is that just a painful process because what i really like is to have the best possible toon as a sort of trophy.

Yes, a big change like this will make existing trophies a bit less trophies, even if it won't totally destroy them as some think. At the same time it offers a lot of other players and professions a way to create and improve on new and existing characters and make old parts of the game interesting again.

You can call this innovation by destruction, it's just a question of how much gets destructed and how much new possibilities come in and how that reflects on the AO player base.

Until then I think there is enough interesting content for most players to continue players or just transfer to test in order to help with the change an make in workable. Yet it is a valid point that for some players with mostly twinks and no leveling concerns these are trying time, especially with low populations around for at least some skirmish.

[jorricane]

I'm glad you like it. I hope you enjoy remaking your toons to be competetive. I know I won't.

After playing for nearly 7 years, the only thing I enjoy is remaking toons. Its not that its AO's grind that bugs me, its that its the only MMO where I have to put some thought into setups. Nothing else in the game, PvP or PvM is nearly as enjoyable as setting up toons in my eyes.

As for support profs moving up in the ladder, AO is not really about group PvP anymore, or ever really - NW was never not laggy enough for really well played tactical PvP, and despite NW and BS, its still really a solo thing (in terms of the fights themselves, not so much the objectives to be achieved). Support profs need to move up, else we will find ourselves with a dearth of well set up support profs when we need them.

These changes are large scale, but if you look in depth at the perk changes, the vast majority are minor tweaks that will improve the performance in the context they are mainly used in. The major things (defense checks primarily) will just change who the targets are - and in many cases they will make the "unperkable evaders" perkable where they were not previously.

As I said, the changes are the first thing I've actually looked forward to in AO in a long time - probably since the release of AI. We agree that things could go wrong, but thats half the fun

[Armus]

As a general remark to the general concern...
The main question I ask myself; do i play the game to create and improve my character or is that just a painful process because what i really like is to have the best possible toon as a sort of trophy..

I like to make toons and try things that perhaps haven't been tried before. The grind is nothing but pain for me though. The thing is the whole point of going all out with a toon in terms of ai levels and gear is to give you an edge in certain situations. When that edge is completely wiped out because FC feels like it.. Well. then it all becomes futile, doesn't it?

Yes, a big change like this will make existing trophies a bit less trophies, even if it won't totally destroy them as some think. At the same time it offers a lot of other players and professions a way to create and improve on new and existing characters and make old parts of the game interesting again..

That's what I said: You need to retwink or even reroll to stay competetive.

You can call this innovation by destruction, it's just a question of how much gets destructed and how much new possibilities come in and how that reflects on the AO player base..

I agree.

Until then I think there is enough interesting content for most players to continue players or just transfer to test in order to help with the change an make in workable. .

Yeah cuz FC likes to listen to it's users. We all know that

Yet it is a valid point that for some players with mostly twinks and no leveling concerns these are trying time, especially with low populations around for at least some skirmish.

That's exactly where I am. And in fact that's where my whole org is.

[Armus]

Here is what I think should've been done:

Identify which profs are at the bottom at the pvp food chain. You will come up with a list of 3 or 4 profs. Start with the obvious one:shades.

Then move to the next step and identify what is stopping said prof from performing well. Is it too low AR, too low NR, no cc or whatever.
Then remedy this with nanos or perk changes or whatever.
Put it on test. Try it out.. Then on live. Give it some time to sink in.

If it works well move on to next prof. If not go back and see what else is needed.

Do this until those 3-4 profs have gotten attention. Then give it some more time and you do a "second pass". Pick another 3-4 profs. Only this time the changes should be more subtle.

Rinse and repeat with ever smaller and more subtle tweaks and you may approach something that resembles balance.

[Questra]

Here is what I think should've been done:

Identify which profs are at the bottom at the pvp food chain. You will come up with a list of 3 or 4 profs. Start with the obvious one:shades.

Then move to the next step and identify what is stopping said prof from performing well. Is it too low AR, too low NR, no cc or whatever.
Then remedy this with nanos or perk changes or whatever.
Put it on test. Try it out.. Then on live. Give it some time to sink in.

If it works well move on to next prof. If not go back and see what else is needed.

Do this until those 3-4 profs have gotten attention. Then give it some more time and you do a "second pass". Pick another 3-4 profs. Only this time the changes should be more subtle.

Rinse and repeat with ever smaller and more subtle tweaks and you may approach something that resembles balance.

We know what actually happened, though. Funcom used a lottery system and the Trader ball came up 5 times in a row

[Armus]

We know what actually happened, though. Funcom used a lottery system and the Trader ball came up 5 times in a row

Actually what they do is they read the forums and collect all sensible suggestions and put them on a really huge whiteboard in their office labeled FORBIDDEN.

Every now and then someone erases something. I personally think that troublemaker may be the janitor.
I'm pretty sure that's what happened to the fix to orbital strike. I mean if you haven't fixed it for two years (a lifetime literally in the onlie gameworld) you won't ever do it unless it's a mistake.

[ninor]

Well, as pointed out somewhere already. those lists are nice food for whiners of all professions. some more some less. Making the basic system more evenly balanced between classes by adjusting offense and defense mechanics seems to be a good start. The proposed changes are a first step to adjust to the basic change, and are the current state of affairs, neither final nor last of the coming changes.

It's not an easy job and how long it takes and how well it works out will greatly depend on the quality and quantity of the player input and the ability or willingness of the designers to listen and implement. So far even offering to discuss these changes in such an open way is a a positive signal for me.

As I like to think: "We live in interesting times."

[Venachar]

Whatever way you spin it, your 'FC sucks I quit' thread does not belong in this forum. If you really want to post it, go post it in LoA/LoR, where I can safely not care about it until people troll you