Engi' thing

[Harlss]

I have no opposition to the perk changes not affecting pistol wielding Engineers. I think most people view the grenade engineers in terms of PvM/TS'rs so there should be a distinction between the applicable perk lines much as a melee or ranged advy would have.

I would however like to see Heavy Weapons added to the perk requirements along with Grenade. Given a Heavy Weapon choice, it would not be locked down to a specific weapon type as was stated as one of the goals. It would open up another possible weapon line for future development. They also use the same implant positions so they are effectively identical in drawbacks for achieving a higher AR, except for the grenade in the Syndicate symb.

My actual feeling is that all weapons that req Heavy Weapons should just require grenade instead and Heavy Weapons should be gotten rid of entirely. I don't see much use for Heavy Weapons given that it is in the exact same implant spots. I'd move Grenade over to ranged where it belongs, dump HW and move Sharp Objects to Melee, and get rid of the "Misc Weapons" button altogether.

But I digress.

Add Heavy Weapon to the Grenade line for the reasons stated above.

/brox

[Xyphos]

I have no opposition to the perk changes not affecting pistol wielding Engineers. I think most people view the grenade engineers in terms of PvM/TS'rs so there should be a distinction between the applicable perk lines much as a melee or ranged advy would have.

Sorry my friend, I'm going to have to disagree.
I myself am Grenade and even tho I do PvM and TS, I also PvP.

there is no distinction.
PvM/TS/PvP Multi-Purpose engineers make great main characters for those who enjoy dynamic content.

Tho I do like the attack times on the demolitions perks reduced, I don't see WHY it requires grenade weapon to be equiped.
it's not even a ranged grenade perk, it's a close-up "Use Device" perk and should be useable by all engineers.
locking them to grenade only makes no sense what-so-ever because grenade engineers never use grenade weapons in PvP. we use remod or arbalest.
besides, if you're not a grenade engi, and you don't have Grenade skill raised, you'll never land these perks on anyone anyway.


However, I do agree; besides the common Pistol setup and the few Grenadiers we have, Heavy Weapons is yet another weapon option for Engineers and could use some love in this area.

/Xyphos

[Swordbreaker]

I would love seeing that upcoming Grenade weapon req going away in the Demolitions line. It's only gonna turn that perk line into a yet another Gadgeteer for most Engineers, since there are no Grenade weapons ingame worth a damn. Even tradeskillers can use the tradeskill pistols which are better DD than even that darn Sloth of Xan they added.

I could support a "must use ranged weapon" for it though!

[Towerblock]

I support part of what Harls is saying. I do like that engi's have had some good upgrading portions of pistol, but I am not seeing so much in terms of balance. What we got was pistol perks that everyone else has. Its pretty simple to think that pistols users should have had the entire perkline all along, side by side from the beginning.

Secondly, that would also mean the same for 1hb mp/enforcer perkline, which is still not on par with pistol in the same regards.

I also kinda dont see why there is a heavy weapons skill really. There are a handful of heavy weapon options, but those are pretty outdated. Some profs (specifically engineer and soldier) are getting heavy weapons love and even combined with some buffing items, it doesn't make the outdated weapons any better in terms of usability. We should see some heavy weapons options and possibly some better grenade options, for all. That way, its possible that at least a few people could take advantage of it at least.

[Harlss]

I think most people.....

Ehh, you're not most people. Consensus at least up until LE would reflect a TS/PVM Grenade stance but that issue is of no real importance. The idea really revolves around the fact that we essentially have two identical weapon skills. One so obsolete, save for maybe MCS, that no one even bothers to notice it exists, never mind use it.

I honestly think it could just be done away with and the skill combined into Grenade moving all things that req HW to req Grenade.

We could debate the push to get more grenade options into the hands of Engineer's and counter that with the lack of support for it in their Control symb set all day as well, especially when compared to the notion that Infantry prof's get Heavy Weapons in their symb set and not a single profession who can use infantry symbs, would ever use that skill. There may be PvP Grenade Engi's but there are no Heavy Weapon Enforcers.

A clear half the professions targeted to use Heavy Weapons have no business doing so. Ok then, let's move the target demographic and move it to a group that doesn't have a plethora of weapon choices like the Infantry prof's do.

If the skill has clearly failed within its demographic, change the demographic and support the use of it, or remove it entirely.

There is no real need to gum this up. I think everyone knows where I'm coming from with this. I think we'll be hard pressed to find a dissenter as well.

/brox

[Boltgun]

Because nades can use their own line, when you can use both lines with pistols there is no way someone will pick up grenade again. However why not make the engie launch his bombs with the launcher ? Giving it a higher range ?

Because a ranged line with melee actions is err... dumb. Especially when you shoot explosives, and shotting them point blank is err... dumber. I'd like to go kaboom again on my lowbie engie.

This doesn't change the fact that there no decent grenade launcher anyway.

Also other concerns :
- Freak shield going number of perks and not level dependent. Perk 1 AI action were to give immediate reward that isn't ai level dependent (either level or skill dependent).
- Taunt box hould be looked at further, maybe even give it at lower level. Gj still on that one.

I'm writing this because engies should be easier to play at lower levels, I know many quit immediately because you start with a pet hitting once in a decade who won't keep aggro.

Edit : HW is one of those skills we don't really know how to treat anymore. Merging it with nade might do some good, but heh. Misc weapons were either thrown or skills used to represent heavy melee or ranged. Original 1he weapons were heavy weapons.

[sannz]

Also other concerns :
- Freak shield going number of perks and not level dependent. Perk 1 AI action were to give immediate reward that isn't ai level dependent (either level or skill dependent).

This. NTs got a similar "fix" there on Flim Focus (good fix for NTs tho, imo), while other profs like advys (Beckoning, now adds +200alldmg@lvl200, no more cold-dmg-override) and sols (Supressive Horde, unchanged) are still allowed to be unchanged.

Also, making the Grenade perks pretty much melee is kindof silly. And not in a good way. Rather make its range be based on the weapon equipped.

[Xyphos]

Also, making the Grenade perks pretty much melee is kindof silly. And not in a good way. Rather make its range be based on the weapon equipped.

But they ARE NOT grenade perks, they are close-up "Use Device" perks.
the name "Install ____________ Device" explains it all;
you are getting up close and installing a device that when activates, devastates your opponent.

Imagine This:
Metal Gear Solid on PS1, you run up to an enemy and plant C4 on their person without them knowing and then detonate it.

These perks are in no way related to grenade besides the Attack Skill check, which means without enough grenade skill raised, you will never land these perks on anyone.

the fact that they are being locked to grenade weapon only would make them COMPLETELY USELESS because there are no viable grenade weapons for PvP use. and it is for this reason, that grenade engineers who do PvP, use remod or Arbalest.

These perks need to be usable by any engineer regardless of weapon equipped.

[agentwolve]

i think they should do a if weapon grenade then the def checks stay 15% as they are for installing, if not 90%

add a viable grenade wep and it could be intresting ( not a AS grenade wep)

[Xebulba]

*BUMP*

1.) More up-to-date, viable grenade weapons -- YES

2.) Heavy weapons going away completely -- YES

3.) Move Grenade over to ranged where it belongs, move Sharp Objects to Melee, and get rid of the "Misc Weapons" button altogether. -- YES

4.) "Demolitions" perk line changed to melee attack skill instead of grenade attack skill -- NO, the perk line buffs grenade skill...want the perk actions? USE GRENADE. (see #1 and # 5)

5.) Make grenade ranged and add more up-to-date/viable grenade options. -- YES (Didn't I mention that already?)

These perks are in no way related to grenade besides the Attack Skill check, which means without enough grenade skill raised, you will never land these perks on anyone.

Doesn't the fact that the line raises grenade skill make it related to grenade or do things work differently in your world?

[Technogen]

Doesn't the fact that the line raises grenade skill make it related to grenade or do things work differently in your world?

No, its more about what the perk is, its installing a device, you dont shoot a device at something you apply the device to it.

[Ciex]

Some lowbie pvp love would be also good. At tl5 buffed slayer alone is unable to outheal my heal delta on enf and i dont have 2s HD yet

[Dancingrage]

I'll dissent to removing skills like HW or SO, but I'll give support to giving them more support.

My big beef these days is that there isn't enough support for some of those random 'wtf' builds like MBC. It's not just HE that never gets used anymore, Melee Energy was supposed to be MP build once upon a time but now it's pretty much ignored, mostly because of how it was implemented (shining in head slot probably wasn't brightest idea) and Ranged Energy fell by the wayside since it's hard to compete with the pistols available like the CDR at lower levels.

I think opening up HW perklines would be a good idea and probably adding skills to symbiants so there's actually support for some of the weapons that you'd see control profs using (ME/RE/HW/Grenade/Pistol). If they're willing to look at and fix perks, they can look at and fix symbiants as well, and I'm willing to wait if they're willing to fix 'em.