Why i should kill myself? I have only CH as def, so this recharge just kill me if someone want to attack. And stop telling me, what to do, and i dont tell you where you should go. When you get an 220 agent, then we talk, if not, shut up and leave thread pls.Originally Posted by Klod9000
Well, you should. God forbid to use other nanos but CH, tactically.
Last edited by Berserkmc; Oct 18th, 2009 at 14:52:09.
You are not looking at the big picture. What will kill you so fast in the future? Specials are getting nerfed, your damage potential via perks is rising, heals are getting nerfed, more re-balancing stuff is inc...
{This is not a necessary commet, Klod... - Venachar}
Last edited by Venachar; Oct 18th, 2009 at 18:04:06.
When appropriate, we should also use the Kyr type 3 for the glory proc and then swap to XoA for the aao to maximize our AR and chances of hitting someone. Yet, somehow, we don't.
If it turns out Ignat's becomes more useful in the future, maybe we'll use it more often.
This discussion is about whether having a constant 3k AS skill in a reasonable pvp setup is viable or not. Ignat's is not constant, and so I'm not much interested in it as a way to reach 3k AS.
Damn, i'm playing as an agent and not see a big picture of my prof, but you playing another prof and see it.
Ok, let's try to see a "big picture".
Incoming heal nerf:
CH is a heal too, so in a "big picture" our already crippeld defence will be destroyed completely by heal nerf. Nevermind, how it being nerfed, cast cap, lowered heal amount or tripled nanocost. It's actually already nerfed by RI, Init debuffs, Nanodrains, NSD.
Special nerf:
Specials getting nerfed, but AimedShot is a special and it 60 to 70 of my damage in PvP. Swap is getting nerfed too. Even 2nd AS will come to game it will have a def check, so wont land @ high evades due to low AR of agent.
Perks damage potential:
There is nice damage potential in perks, yes. But it's only potential. In real world, perks, which have Rifle skill check vs Def check is not landning on any prof, that have good evades. And actually most of perks have their damage lowered, like CS become 2 - 2.5k PvP damage w/o reflect, atm it hit 4.5-5k. So most of perks have twice lower damage, than before.
Let's see AR part.
I have best equip on my agent, except ACDC, and w/o towers i have 3.3k AS AR flat. So, it means 3650 with Bullseye. I can perk some evade profs with nonevade setup with CS in that case. Let's get this as a point of perking.
I have 3k AR with Rifle AR. And i can not perk with Rifle AR perks.
Towers highest QL add me 90+42 = 132 AR.
If i change AAD Utils to AR Utils i losing 125 def(which means i get perked by all and get most of specials in cap).
Rifle AR = 3.1k, 3450 with Bullseye. 200 Short from the point.
AS AR = 3.4k, 3750 with BE.
Change my setup to completely AR will cut off 400 AAD from me, which means even mobs will hit me close to 100% of the time. Since i have only one CH as def i get killed faster, than i load all my perks.
Rifle AR = 3220 AR, 3570 with BE. 80 short from the point.
AS AR = 3685 in that case, 4025 with BE.
So, in cost of 400 def agent can get up to 3350 Rifle AR, which mean 3700 with Bullseye.
In same time AS AR will be more, than 4k.
Let's see a def part.
In reality of AO any player can get a doggy, GSF, istare(these 3 is musthave for any PvP actions) adv, crat and keeper in team and get +1030 to all evades. Which mean any profession with 2701 total def being unperkable in that company. Towers add 82+63= 145 def.
Evade profession(which have Acrobat):
I have an MA, which can get up to 3450 total dodge def w/o limber in moderate equip, which means 3650 with limber. So it means agent in full AR setup have 25 seconds to perk him under limber if he is self-buffed.
So, if MA which have evadeclose higher and is a gimpest of acrobat profs now, then others acrobat professions can get more 3500 it means other profs unperkable even under limber. And even they have less, they just need to live 25 seconds w/o DoF.
In same time all of them, except MA can kill agent with perk alpha while CH is recharging.
So, as we can see, i can perk them under limber now with CS/AI perks and can perk them in full AR setup after revamp.
Evade support profession(crat, MP, trader, NT):
Actually i dont know, how high evades they can get. But 2 of them disable agent def and kill it faster, than agent kill them. Crat can get very high amount of evades, i'm sure. NT have many defensive tools and blind, so maybe can be unperkable too.
In my practice, i can't perk crat with CS/AI, can't perk trader under drains, can't perk NT under blind, and dont see PvP MP too long time. So i prefer count that i can't perk them all.
Non-evade professions(Keeper, Doc, Sold, Eng, Enf, Agent)
Sold have AMS and RI.
Doc have insane heals. Even after nerf i'm sure doc can't be killed easy.
Eng - blind, cocoon, special absorb.
Enf - very much HP, cocoon, perk heals.
Agent - CH and UBT, but due to low evades die fast.
Keepers have nemesis, reflect, perk heals and cocoon.
So, as we can see only non-evade professions being perkable.
In same time 1 and 2 of them have very good defense and can ruin my CH. 3 and 4 of them hard to kill, and actually have good chances to kill me 1st. 5 are squishy and can be easy killed but same time can kill me easy. Last one can be killed and perked until he land nemesis nano.
So, it means all of these perkable profs have good defense vs my perks.
And, if they can get adv/keeper/crat in their team and get an 2700+ total def, they come to unperkable part.
In my equip i have ~2700 total Def, so getting all buffs, adv, crat and keeper i can being unperkable.
If i become to AR setup i going to 2300 def self which means 3330 with all buffs, adv, crat and keeper. In times when even crats can get 3.5k AR and engies 3.4k it means i get all perks in me. And most of specials/regulars not miss too, so i being killed very fast, if not before i kill my opponent.
So, as you can see, AR setup is not an option for any non-atrox agent, because he getting killed faster, than can load all of perks in target, ofc if you can perk them. Or from other side of medal, we have forced to go AR setup(or reroll to atrox) to kill anyone, who can pass 2700 def with overbuffs. And in same time we getting killed just after we kill our target, with no chances to live, since heals will be nerfed too.
P.S. It's actually not full on topic, but as i already say, there is no point have, or don't have 3k AS, if all perks will check Rifle skill to land.
P.P.S. There may be typos or wrong grammatic, but i'm not native english speaking.
Last edited by Berserkmc; Oct 18th, 2009 at 20:30:55.
Big picture of this whole balancing act, not just your profession.
Who said these won't be adjusted as well? Actually, Means did say that some of them will be adjusted.Incoming heal nerf:
CH is a heal too, so in a "big picture" our already crippeld defence will be destroyed completely by heal nerf. Nevermind, how it being nerfed, cast cap, lowered heal amount or tripled nanocost. It's actually already nerfed by RI, Init debuffs, Nanodrains, NSD.
So? You are saying this like everybody else will keep their current special's damage potential, but you.Special nerf:
Specials getting nerfed, but AimedShot is a special and it 60 to 70 of my damage in PvP. Swap is getting nerfed too. Even 2nd AS will come to game it will have a def check, so wont land @ high evades due to low AR of agent.
It's actually only your profession that will get the biggest damage boost out of this change. How do you know that you won't be able to land it on evade professions? You will probably be the only one that can do that.
CS got its damage lowered you say? OK, but majority of other perk actions got decent increase in damage, as I can see, not to mention horrible execution time got lowered to something more acceptable.Perks damage potential:
There is nice damage potential in perks, yes. But it's only potential. In real world, perks, which have Rifle skill check vs Def check is not landning on any prof, that have good evades. And actually most of perks have their damage lowered, like CS become 2 - 2.5k PvP damage w/o reflect, atm it hit 4.5-5k. So most of perks have twice lower damage, than before.
Can't land it? Work on that AR, you won't need MP/NT/trader-like static defense anymore.
I think evade agents are ready to be scrapped. About time for this to happen.Let's see AR part.
I have best equip on my agent, except ACDC, and w/o towers i have 3.3k AS AR flat. So, it means 3650 with Bullseye. I can perk some evade profs with nonevade setup with CS in that case. Let's get this as a point of perking.
Im sure you dont see it also. I'm playing on agent, and i'm interested in agent, why i should think about other. They have their own players. And i not speaking about tl5, since i dont play my agent on that title level.
Means say heals will be nerfed. Even all the debuffs is adjusted, CH will be nerfed too, since it is a heal.
Actually many prof keep that damage. Soldiers already have huge FA skill, Fixers getting much FA skill soon, Advies already have FA. And all of them have Burst, and option to use AS. We have no option to use FA.
I dont see any damage boost, i see a nerf. Atm my 30% AS is coming each 12 seconds, after change - 12+3s of channeling. Or they remove 30% cap from the game?
And yes, i'm sure i miss secondary AS most of the time or even dont land it, since Means say it will get a def check. I have an advie, which missing his backstab too much on high-def targets and never miss with SA.
Not only CS got damage lowered, The Shot(twice lowered), Piercing shot(a little), Assasinate and Death Strike(a little both). Snipe Shot 1 and 2 remains the same. So no increase in perk damage. All of our debuffs have lowered duration also.
No agent in clear mind use shadowsneak perks because we have no perk points for that line, and reachrge of them 3-6 minutes.
Yes, execution times will lowered, but most of perks hit in range of 2 - 2.5k nonreflected damage, which means ~1k damage per second. At this moment i have more damage and most of profs, which i can land perks, outheal/reflect that damage with no problems, just run off or kill me.
About AR i said all in previous post. To getting AR higher, than 3350(which is actually impossible to reach if you have no towers) i should be a trox. I am not, and i dont want to reroll. If you getting perked by agents, you should work on your defense.
Agents need that static defense, you're wrong. It's because active defense is blocked by everyone and their dog and likely come to nerf soon. I'm easy trade my CH ability to use DoF and get Fixer-like evades.
NT is a perfect glass cannons(and they have passive defense) which can kill until their target not nr8 or trader, we are just glass, since our cannon shooting with wool fodders most of the time.
Yes, evade agents are dead since even support profs have 3.3k+AR. But evades are not pointless fyi, if you have low evades, you getting capped specials, crits and regulars more. In AR setup i have total def lower, than doctor. Doc can easy get 2500 def in our times. But unlike doctor, i can't outheal all damage i getting, and can't reach same amount of HP and stay with huge AR.
And again, we need any sort of passive defense after heals getting nerfed.
Last edited by Berserkmc; Oct 18th, 2009 at 21:58:25.
But why? You are getting more killing power.
You said majority of perks got nerfed. That's not true. And those that got damage decreased, they got either its recharge halved, or some other stuff removed, like long execution time and % health check.
Shadow bullet lost silly 10% def check, but got better (damage wise), it lost "must have FA running" req. and that sounds good to me. Night Killer definitely got better. Snipe Shot 1 and 2 got better. Pinpoint Strike got better, it lost Soften Up req, but got 1 sec more to execute (fair enough). Death Strike got nerfed? I think it got better (no stun req, no 15% health check anymore, lowered execution time).
{edited by Anarrina: unnecessary}
Last edited by Anarrina; Oct 18th, 2009 at 22:53:42.
if agents go enf aswell instead of docs their AR will increase around 300 from challanger aswell.
Moonbolt - 220/26/something. Trox Enf RK1 General of Hells Heroes.
Renswind - 220/21/67 solitus trader.
Moonkiss - 219/21/something opifex shade.
Mooncloud - 150/18/somethin solitus MA.
Generally the Agents Damage over time potential has been increased, the recharge times on the perks are still a bit long imo, but the execution times overall are improved. However the biggest problem is that this damage potential won't actually do anything in PvP the way things stand, Agents have been suffering for a long time without reasonable upgrades because of the Always hitting 11 sec special which will Cap a lot of the time, that however is getting changed.
If Agents don't get a significantly improved AR or the Perks def checks lowered then those perks aren't going to be landing on the majority of people.
As it stands if we go for an AR build our defence is worse than any other profession, and if we go for a defensive setup our AR is pretty much on Par with support professions who ironically have a better defence. 11 Sec Aimed shot is pretty much the Agents saving grace at the moment, but it's also been holding Agents back from getting properly developed for many years. It's loss, and we are loosing it the way it stands, will cause a lot of problems for Agents, problems Agents have been wanting to get fixed for years but have never been repaired since we had 11 Sec No def check AS. A vicious circle that is finally being broken in the only way it could be.
No surprise many Agents are worried about the perk changes, which further weaken the landing chances of the most used perks, but really until there's more to see about the other changes for the profession rebalancing it's hard to really come to a definitive conclusion about whether these changes are good or bad as yet. But based on what we've seen so far, the more frequently used Perks from the Agent toolset have been weakened.
Ebondevil - Omni Level 220 Agent on Atlantean, Feel free to contact me any time if you have questions, in game or out.
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Because it's a runspeed debuff perk. It should have a lower check, just like you agreed to in Nick's thread.
TL5 Agents won't suffer too badly from the increase. In fact, it might give other professions a chance to survive the massive TL5 Agent alpha.
+AAO doesn't help in reaching 3k AS since AAO is not included in the formula.
As to what Ebon said:
Spot on. As a pure artillery profession, I'm hoping to sit on par with Soldiers in terms of Attack Rating (without including Bullseye). I'd also like a defense that doesn't make me splat almost instantly if there's any amount of coordination between two people (which is what a full out AR setup affords you, not to mention the heal nerf).
the challanger was a reply to that agent that didnt think he was gonna land perks etc...
the challanger will help an agent quite alot if agents go pure gank style instead of defencive as it is atm.
Moonbolt - 220/26/something. Trox Enf RK1 General of Hells Heroes.
Renswind - 220/21/67 solitus trader.
Moonkiss - 219/21/something opifex shade.
Mooncloud - 150/18/somethin solitus MA.
Well i think you can get a bit more than that with towers, I had 3358 with fp sold and 275 presence & 250 ransacking tower
but i have full beta symbs and ql 270ish CSS, so i miss few points prolly like 30ish.
If you are talking about The Shot, this one is a significant damage perk as well, so I don't think so.
That is theoretically an option, a sad one but one nonetheless.
Sneak, Q, hit all perks, rage and run in other direction and wait for all the perks to land.
How one dimensional is that, for a class. Thats a nerf even if agents end up killing more people in such a fashion.
Damage on perks is one thing, being able to use them so they kill people is another. A lot of people that alpha people to death are taking the decreases in stun time, and longer execution times on perks as a nerf, and its not hard to understand why.
Never in a hurry, I'm just moving fast
No more real killing power, more potential since perks not land. And i didn't say all perks are nerfed, but core perks - CS/Tranq are.
Shadow Bullet never lands under 10% check, because Fade Armor have 100% check and never lands. And im repeat, no any agent perks Shadowsneak line(we have no perk points for it) until they need sense buff. All preferer Sharpshooter, since Sharp perks have lower rechage and we have 7 free perk points. And you ask me about better damage and not better overall. Damage is not better, it's stay same or lowered.
Yes, overall some perks, like Snipe Shot 1/2 is become better. PPS stay unchanged, because Soften Up+PPS lands in 2s. DS/Ass got better only in checks and execution times.
So, sorry, but you fail here @ all.
Let's see on highest Challenger. +252 AAO with recharge time 24s. BE have 3s recharge and -350 dodge, which means +350 AAO. So, if i can chose, i chose BE and CH and not challenger and suck.
Let's take a look @ real situation.
Mimic enf:
I'm using BE on target, then challenger(after 3 seconds of BE recharge), then attack.
If target is evade prof:
Pop DoF/MoR/free stim as fast, as get hit by BE, so even if i use challenger, i can not perk and stuck with 24s recharge. If i get rooted i can't even use rage for running out. Then i getting perks/specials and die since i have no heals in mimic enf and only 25k HP.
If perks are landed, target just use free stim and heals, then run away after using root graft on me. I have 24s recharge of challenger, so can't remove it by rage.
If target non-evade prof.
My target know about alphas and stuns, so pop mor/prepare to use free movement/active defense, then heal. Then target use root graft and run away, or attack me.
If target try to attack, it use own alpha. With recharge on me and no perks/any form of another defense i just die.
Mimic doctor:
Use BE on target, then attack.
Evade prof:
If perks lands, die, if low hp, or survive, if high hp or heals.
If perks not lands, try to alpha me, i'm use CH and survive alpha. Then we running around and try to kill eachother.
Non-evade prof:
Getting my perks, survive, attack me, i'm use CH and survive alpha or, under CH breakers, die after their alpha.
As you can see, in mimic enf i have very low chances to survive if i fail to kill my target. And i have chances to finish my target or survive in fail situation. Sorry, if you like to die, but i have no fun die and rebuffing 10-15 minutes(if not on BS) after each my kill or in each time i fail to kill my target. So it's option only for masochists and not help much. I'm prefer survive, but sad, it become too hard survive each patch even in mimic doc.
Ofc i can use mimic enf only in AR setup, since in other setups i have lower AR to perk even under challnger.
In theory, agent can get up to 6000 AR for 30s, if he is atrox or under opi SB. Let's talk abour real values. FP sold gave you only +50 AR in cost of another 40 def, so it means your real AR was 3308. So, w/o +50 from sold and with full alpha/CSS you get around same amount of AR. I can forget some values and trickles, but no more, than 20. And 3350 AR was counted with 275 presence/250 ransack, i mention this in my post.
FP sold is not an option for agent at all:
1. You still can't use BE under TMS, so can't perk anyone. If you try to use it before, your target just kill you earlier.
2. Under TMS 1st NT/trader pwn you faster, than you shoot them, all other just root/snare you an laugh on your remains, after your TMS is dropped.
3. I'm sorry, but i dont want to wait 20 minutes after i die for buff mimic sold for AR, then mimic trader for SL procs/TP, then mimic doc for survive.
4. Only use for mimicing sold in Tarasque box/CT defense standing(but in that case i'm using APT), where you just stand still, have team and many doctors, spamming AoE heals, and crats, spamming AoE root. But you being still 1st target for enemy NT, which love soldiers as free frags.
If anyone want, we can easy prove on tests all i say. I'm sure you can see it by yourself.
Last edited by Berserkmc; Oct 19th, 2009 at 11:44:05.
Well I run fasle profession soldier then TP then doc so I always got soldier's buff running (at + total focus is 74 AR or so).
Work on that rifle AR, use dodge debuff nano...
Choices, choices. Might reconsider perking it now?Shadow Bullet never lands under 10% check, because Fade Armor have 100% check and never lands. And im repeat, no any agent perks Shadowsneak line(we have no perk points for it) until they need sense buff.
With incoming healing nerf, it actually increases significantly.Damage is not better, it's stay same or lowered.
How I fail if you just agreed with me on 90% of stuff I just wrote?Yes, overall some perks, like Snipe Shot 1/2 is become better. PPS stay unchanged, because Soften Up+PPS lands in 2s. DS/Ass got better only in checks and execution times.
So, sorry, but you fail here @ all.
If it's not the one I wrote no, I don't.
u do know that challanger lasts for 1.30 mins right? ..
basically u can cast challanger wait out the 29 sec recharge.. while in stealth cast BE alpha then rage and run away.
Moonbolt - 220/26/something. Trox Enf RK1 General of Hells Heroes.
Renswind - 220/21/67 solitus trader.
Moonkiss - 219/21/something opifex shade.
Mooncloud - 150/18/somethin solitus MA.
Sure, Agent's can just magically get +500 to +1000 Rifle AR out of thin air.
Yes the Shadowsneak Perks have been improved however the general benefits of the line aren't vastly significant, giving probably around +15 Aimed Shot from Trickle and significantly less to everything else. Overall it's more enticing but probably still not worth the perks as things stand, if it becomes viable to abandon Enhance health, then those perks will probably be useful, otherwise, I'm pleased for the changes, but it's still probably the worst Profession specific Line Agents get.
You have details on the Heal nerf? no? Then it's pretty pointless trying to say how much better things will be after it. All we can do is compare what's been detailed against what we currently have, and based on that, the damage isn't really improved at all, it's definitely not significantly improved, not for PvP and not for PvM.
Ebondevil - Omni Level 220 Agent on Atlantean, Feel free to contact me any time if you have questions, in game or out.
Varinox - Omni Level 220 Meta-Physicist on Atlantean
Yamarra - Omni Level 150 Shade on Atlantean
Feel free to send me any tell in game or a Private Message if you require anything.
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