AMS Idea

[Etyris]

Yes it is. It's called teamwork. You can scoff and tell us how much your friends from other MMOs laugh at AO but at the end of the day, it's the game that we and apparently you, choose to pay for. AO might not be the biggest MMO right now, but it has been and it's been one of the most revolutionary and there's something about AO that keeps players like me away from other MMOs and keeps people like me coming back with our hard earned cash.

So because you're fighting a 'team' on a sol, and by team you obviously mean a trader/nt/engi, you should be basically defenseless? Ok. AO isn't the biggest MMO and is getting smaller, and bandaids like these aren't helpin the cause. 1 person tanking 4+ end game characters until another prof comes along to destroy them is silly and I think you know that.

I've never played any other game where with some effort and a few smart button presses, not only I am elated but so are my peers, the bad guy defeated, good times reign for my side once again. In no other MMO have I seen hundreds of people feel jubilant after finally, after 3 long years, turning the tide in a war.

Laugh all you want. This is the game we love, this is the game we pay to play. And I will defend to the hilt a Soldiers right to AMS and happily pewpew in the absence of an NT/Trader/Engineer because when they're called upon those professions are suddenly and without equal, greatly appreciated. That's a feeling worth :15bux:.

If you find it so funny, stop spending your money on a joke.

That was totally unnecessary and a complete strawman argument, Hacre. I obviously enjoy AO or I wouldn't be playing. No one quits a game over one nano... I relayed what I heard from new potential players about a silly game mechanic and those who quit the game a long time ago. What does winning a war after 3 years have to do with AMS in any way or 'smart button presses'? Puzzling.

You say the 'soldier is without equal' in the absence of shield circumventers, how can you really believe that's not too strong?

You can't balance a prof around the presence of three other profs.

[Hacre]

You say the 'soldier is without equal' in the absence of shield circumventers, how can you really believe that's not too strong?

Because any one of three people can show up and make that Soldier less of a problem. Or to put the odds in perspective, just one of the people playing any of those three professions can show up and make that Soldier less of a problem.

You can't balance a prof around the presence of three other profs.

It only takes one of them to take the sting out of the Soldier's tail.

A lot of Soldiers adapted and stopped relying completely on AMS, with high HP high reflect setups and they are a harder take down for Traders and NTs at least, not quite the same situation for Engineers, but they have a direct defense against specials with absorbs to back it up.

When a Soldier can be attacked by an Engineer and have time to kill both the Engineer's pets, I wouldn't call that the most terrible of opponents for the Soldier, would you?

A well put together team can counter everyone, a badly put together team cannot.

Balancing the game still doesn't mean make 1v1 encounters the root of the discussion. They're a part of it, yes, but far from the whole story.

My "straw man" was nothing of the sort. I'm tired of people saying how MMO xyz does it better. Well you can't please everyone and saying something should be changed just because another MMO doesn't do something like that is itself a straw man. As for the other comments I made, I was defending AO from your comments of mirth and merriment at the way AO does things. Sure some of it isn't right, but some of it is. We don't need people who don't even play the damn game providing feedback.

We should be fully capable of using common sense to help balance the game without leaning on "what other people do". That's a slippery slope and one that leads to a bad place, such as removing twinking altogether. You know, because other MMOs don't have twinking like AO does.

Which is why I think Soldier's defenses are fine, most of the good ones have adapted well. The only change AMS really needs is for Pierce Reflect to only pierce for Radiation damage and Borrow Reflect shouldn't -100% reflects. -50, 60, 70, 80, sure, but not completely strip them bare of their main defense which is reflects.

I can't in good conscience want to see GTH looked at and not advocate changes such as this, as the effects are similar from a defensive standpoint, and it would make me a hypocrite.

That doesn't mean however, that Soldiers need a complete redesign or have their bread and butter defensive tool completely smashed with a nerf bat. Nerfs are bad.

[Manicmouse]

1 person tanking 4+ end game characters until another prof comes along to destroy them is silly and I think you know that.

Tanking for only ONE MINUTE AND TWENTY SECONDS and then getting absolutely nailed for FORTY SECONDS. Don't focus on one aspect of the situation ignoring the glaring problems with the rest.

True AMS is strong, but that's because we're so damn weak afterwards.

Give us an alternative that works before even considering changing AMS.

[Etyris]

Because any one of three people can show up and make that Soldier less of a problem. Or to put the odds in perspective, just one of the people playing any of those three professions can show up and make that Soldier less of a problem.

It only takes one of them to take the sting out of the Soldier's tail.

You said that already.

A lot of Soldiers adapted and stopped relying completely on AMS.

Good. I'm not saying nerf the hell out of soldiers' defenses... far from it. I say we deserve a real defensive toolset and to tone down AMS, to smooth out the dichotomy of being either untouchable or squished very fast. I think that's a bad mechanic and it isn't soldier-like hence why I'm discussing it in the balance forum.

If we're using AMS less anyway, would this not be a buff to sols?

My "straw man" was nothing of the sort. I'm tired of people saying how MMO xyz does it better. Well you can't please everyone and saying something should be changed just because another MMO doesn't do something like that is itself a straw man. As for the other comments I made, I was defending AO from your comments of mirth and merriment at the way AO does things. Sure some of it isn't right, but some of it is. We don't need people who don't even play the damn game providing feedback.

We should be fully capable of using common sense to help balance the game without leaning on "what other people do". That's a slippery slope and one that leads to a bad place, such as removing twinking altogether. You know, because other MMOs don't have twinking like AO does.

Which is why I think Soldier's defenses are fine, most of the good ones have adapted well. The only change AMS really needs is for Pierce Reflect to only pierce for Radiation damage and Borrow Reflect shouldn't -100% reflects. -50, 60, 70, 80, sure, but not completely strip them bare of their main defense which is reflects.

I can't in good conscience want to see GTH looked at and not advocate changes such as this, as the effects are similar from a defensive standpoint, and it would make me a hypocrite.

That doesn't mean however, that Soldiers need a complete redesign or have their bread and butter defensive tool completely smashed with a nerf bat. Nerfs are bad.

What do you think they added Borrow Reflect/Piercing nukes to the game? It is a straight nerf to AMS, rather than doing the right thing which is reducing the ability's duration.

Why would FC remove twinking? That makes no sense and AO isn't the only game the allows twinking. "Common Sense" would say that three separate classes should not be able to entirely shut down another's profs defenses with one button press, just like the GTH that you rail against.

Sols don't need a complete redesign. They need other tools (specifically root/snare reduction and NR) and a duration reduction for AMS. I didn't say other MMOs are doing it 'better', you're putting words in my mouth, I think the way AMS has evolved is in to a really poor game mechanic and the sols should never have had it's defenses built around it. I back up my claim by saying that no other game has done so and surely when AO shuts it's servers you'll never see it again. No more defences which scale perfectly with every type of attack.

[Hacre]

Sols don't need a complete redesign. They need other tools (specifically root/snare reduction and NR) and a duration reduction for AMS.

Uh, no. That's the Soldier's achilles heel, debuffs/nano attacks.

[Etyris]

Uh, no. That's the Soldier's achilles heel, debuffs/nano attacks.

AMS can never be balanced because Hacre doesn't agree with one method of doing it. Gotcha.

[sultryvoltron]

AMS can never be balanced because Hacre doesn't agree with one method of doing it. Gotcha.

This is wrong. The problem is not with AMS. Other emergency defenses need more drawbacks like an NSD, not to remove the few balanced things that exist in game. Also, Soldiers do need to be weak against debuffs and nanos.


The ONLY change I would make is to introduce TMHH (although not in that monstrosity of an incarnation it was before) with a 20-25 second lockout on AMS that refreshes with every cast, coupled with a 20 second decrease in duration for AMS which would obviously lock out TMHH.

[Escritores]

TMHH (although not in that monstrosity of an incarnation it was before)

Lol?

[Etyris]

This is wrong. The problem is not with AMS. Other emergency defenses need more drawbacks like an NSD, not to remove the few balanced things that exist in game. Also, Soldiers do need to be weak against debuffs and nanos.

Elaborate. Why do you think other emergency buttons need a drawback? Its the combination of high powered offense and high powered defense that makes AMS too strong.

The ONLY change I would make is to introduce TMHH (although not in that monstrosity of an incarnation it was before) with a 20-25 second lockout on AMS that refreshes with every cast, coupled with a 20 second decrease in duration for AMS which would obviously lock out TMHH.

20 seconds would be a start. But you also said there's no problem with AMS...

[sultryvoltron]

Lol?

It's been a while, but wasn't it insta-cast 1s recharge? I'm probably wrong on this though.

Elaborate. Why do you think other emergency buttons need a drawback? Its the combination of high powered offense and high powered defense that makes AMS too strong.

20 seconds would be a start. But you also said there's no problem with AMS...

Because that's what emergency defenses are supposed to do. They're not supposed to be "omg all the time" defenses so that you are only vulnerable 1/3rd of the time you play. Other defenses need drawbacks like AMS has to perpetuate that balance, requiring thought on when to use your defenses (7x blockers, DoF, ICH, Coon, NBS, NBG, NBD, BR, the other BR, etc)*. AMS is the only defense that transferred any drawbacks over from their previous versions, and remains basically the only one with those drawbacks to this day. Actually, SS is pretty balanced in this respect too.

Now that I think about it a little more, having AMS lockout TMHH isn't necessary, but having only TMHH lock AMS. The NSD would be plenty to prevent using it right after an emergency defense. What would need to happen is for the Trader to steal AMS with BR and the NSD to be given to the Trader or removed completely, allowing the Soldier to not be 100% defenseless from one stupid nano (RI anyone?).

*In before the "but NB* drains my nano pool!!!!!"*

[Hacre]

It's been a while, but wasn't it insta-cast 1s recharge? I'm probably wrong on this though.

Because that's what emergency defenses are supposed to do. They're not supposed to be "omg all the time" defenses so that you are only vulnerable 1/3rd of the time you play. Other defenses need drawbacks like AMS has to perpetuate that balance, requiring thought on when to use your defenses (7x blockers, DoF, ICH, Coon, NBS, NBG, NBD, BR, the other BR, etc)*. AMS is the only defense that transferred any drawbacks over from their previous versions, and remains basically the only one with those drawbacks to this day. Actually, SS is pretty balanced in this respect too.

Now that I think about it a little more, having AMS lockout TMHH isn't necessary, but having only TMHH lock AMS. The NSD would be plenty to prevent using it right after an emergency defense. What would need to happen is for the Trader to steal AMS with BR and the NSD to be given to the Trader or removed completely, allowing the Soldier to not be 100% defenseless from one stupid nano (RI anyone?).

*In before the "but NB* drains my nano pool!!!!!"*

Not in before that at all. You mentioned NBG and NBS and I'm calling you on it. The drawback of NBS for an offensive NT is -no- emergency defense at all for 30 minutes, the drawback for using NBG is after the 25s are up (note, 25s not 80s) I'm without reflects and have intermittent ammo (assuming nano regain perks are up and weren't used to make the NBG last a bit longer while it was running) for a time afterward.

You're right in what you're saying about powerful defensive tools needing a drawback to using them, but no way am I going to let you mention NBG/NBS as if they have no drawbacks. They do and they're very real, very painful and more debilitating than 40s of NSD for a Soldier, thank you very much.

Oh and the nanodrain post NBS is f**king evil. Soldiers have it lucky, believe me.

[sultryvoltron]

Not in before that at all. You mentioned NBG and NBS and I'm calling you on it. The drawback of NBS for an offensive NT is -no- emergency defense at all for 30 minutes, the drawback for using NBG is after the 25s are up (note, 25s not 80s) I'm without reflects and have intermittent ammo (assuming nano regain perks are up and weren't used to make the NBG last a bit longer while it was running) for a time afterward.

You're right in what you're saying about powerful defensive tools needing a drawback to using them, but no way am I going to let you mention NBG/NBS as if they have no drawbacks. They do and they're very real, very painful and more debilitating than 40s of NSD for a Soldier, thank you very much.

Oh and the nanodrain post NBS is f**king evil. Soldiers have it lucky, believe me.

NTs would probably be an exception, having only a single threaded offense and defense based on nano which the shields deplete. I only have TL7 NT experience for PvM and there the drawbacks of NBG and even NBS are fairly negligible since it barely slows down casting, thus why I stated them as such.

You do have a valid point with NBS. A 30 minute lockout is quite steep. NBG doesn't have nearly as much of a drawback. It's probably pretty balanced, since I didn't think of it wiping out all of your reflects. With the proposed changes to the nano regen perks (Tap Notum Source and Nano Heal are both changing right?) NBG will probably end up being a very nice "oh sh**" button since it will slow down regain some. An improved PNH would be fine too.

[Hacre]

NTs would probably be an exception, having only a single threaded offense and defense based on nano which the shields deplete. I only have TL7 NT experience for PvM and there the drawbacks of NBG and even NBS are fairly negligible since it barely slows down casting, thus why I stated them as such.

You do have a valid point with NBS. A 30 minute lockout is quite steep. NBG doesn't have nearly as much of a drawback. It's probably pretty balanced, since I didn't think of it wiping out all of your reflects. With the proposed changes to the nano regen perks (Tap Notum Source and Nano Heal are both changing right?) NBG will probably end up being a very nice "oh sh**" button since it will slow down regain some. An improved PNH would be fine too.

All that's changing that'll make any kind of positive difference is the perk execution time. Now that Nano Heal isn't a static 4k heal but rather a range of 2.4-4k, if using while under fire, it healing for anything less than 4k is a nerf.

Also bear in mind that Tap Notum Source restores nano for less than half the the amount it restores in SL on RK and the lockout is remaining at 6 minutes.

If NBG has been used and the fight isn't over yet, the nanobot depletion from NBG, while being shorter than the nanobot depletion from NBS, is still a huge pain when every second counts, remember, NBG is an oh crap button, if the reason you pushed it is still around, the longer the fight goes, the less advantage the NT has.

Trust me, managing through the nanodrain in PvM is about 100 times easier than managing through it when under fire in PvP. For the most part, if the NT hasn't won the fight by the time NBG is out, it's time to think about running or dying.