A little Strossus

[Original]

actually.. MA heals alone at lvl 20-30 outdo mongo slam by a clear mile.. 180-380 every 7 seconds vs mongos 330 every 20, and then include that theres a bonus for the heal at 0 secs.. This isn't including Red dawn, flower of life or tree of enlightenment that you can use if you're in a tough spot. Ma heals 540-1260 in 20 secs (not including the 0 sec heal or perks/items) compared to mongos 330. If you include the items and 0 sec heal that you get in a duel, Ma can heal 2740-3640 in a 20 second duel (granted its locked for 5 minutes with flower of life). And yes, soldiers need gumboils to win.. mainly because their special recharges are so long at low levels.

As for the "arguing" I didn't mean this was an argument I meant debating the crats/agents with unrageable roots wasnt worth it as no-one makes them really.

[Esproc]

I was refering to the heal items and perks.
Not including the nano's.
IE
Red Dawn: Estimated at 300 point heal / 60s recharge = 5 health per second
Tree of Enlightenment: 290 point heal / 39s recharge = 7.44 heath per second

Mongo Slam: 33 point heal every 2s = 16.5 health per second

I didn't originally include any heal items that an enforcer could also use.
All the good Neleb toons use Flower as well for example.
Granted once you add heal nanos it gets respectable.

Still doubtful of even a lvl 31 MA being strong enough win every time or even most of the time.
Given the IP I wasted in evade close and the high AC's in the setup they should find it difficult at least.

[Original]

Red dawn is a 600+ heal on a 30 twink. So thats 10 health per second.. But i really dont see the point in you not including heal nanos if you use an ma, you cast heals. Also, at lvl 30 you don't use evades because you cant outlast something that drains all your nano (again thanks to rod). You go for high DD/AC/healing or a flat out alpha setup to simply kill them before they can run you out of nano. Ma healing power is waay greater than enfs, even if the enf uses a flower the ma can use one that heals 1.4k hp almost twice the amount the enf does.

Basically if you build an ma RIGHT the only enf you should have a trouble with is dual tiig/gumboil variety thats in your range when you have all your specials up.

Edit: you said the IP you wasted in Evade clsc i misread, the earlier points still valid though. And your right, the fact you IPd evade clsc means flower won't cause chain critting.. If it did the fight would last like 10 seconds if you alpha then use flower.

[Esproc]

Aye, all the evade close does is prevent chain critical.
But because of that I'm actually hesitant to reset it now since the entire setup is about endure and wear down.
Putting myself into the point were crits happen more often would be stupid unless I also went over to a high DD/alpha setup.

Such as Tiig+Kizzer or Neleb+Kizzer.
To go into Kizzers at 21-25 an enfo would have to go into nearly full Commandos and triple implant.
Which would come at some sacrifice.
AC from lower agility than stam
As well as misc armor parts that were chosen for being high AC.
Lower hp from taking off the same armor pieces.
Lower NR/hp/nano if you are using Inner Eye
Lower nano pool from replacing tank chest, it's currently about 30% of my nano pool.

So while I want to reset "useless" evades, short of a complete overhaul to the setup into a more typical/cookie cutter setup, it likely isn't worth it.

P.S.
Likely going to finish the setup as much as possible to give it it's due.
IE camp the Ely earrings and retwink implants etc and get the NR up were it should be.
If I can I'll try to raise nano pool enough so that I can get full use of the +800 nano from Notum Focus
Would be nice to have a full IPR sitting around but I presently do not for some reason.
Will have to carefully choose 7 skills to cut a little from to free up some IP for a few spots that need a little more.
If possible I want to start using QL 75 free movement stims instead of QL 50.

[Esproc]

As for why I had not counted healing nanos originally.
I was looking at a NR1 setup that focused on high NR+full def with a high DD alpha.
And since it was very swap oriented I chose not to use a low level heal that put you into a long recharge.

[Original]

Well, If you reset into a tiig, you could keep evades up by imping evade clsc in foot instead of melee init? That + casero alone will put you over 100, put a few of the low end of clsc and youre at 150 (inf ring another 10?). Seems like the best option if you're really tight on IP. If you arent, just keep it near maxed with melee init in foot? This is of course if you are going tiig. If you did get gumboils at that level you also run the risk of incomp which makes a lot of work and compromise almost pointless once people catch on.

On my ma i do keep a perk free for NR, but a lot of the time its not worth it, Ma static NR is rather high as you can use all the 4 imp slots for NR if you want, and wave/barrow is very good in a sticky situation. Again the main thing to do is get high physic init to work on full DEF, and full AGG when debuffed in certain situations which is where i made the mistake of using a scope. However getting 35% crit chance with flurry can be fun .

Basically I'd recommend the tiig in most situations and unless you can gumboil with incomp running id stay away from that too, pretty much the same setup only as 1hb meaning playing full DEF is more beneficial (a slight amount of nano C init so rage/mongo are still as near to insta as possible would be nice too but thats a further IP sink).

Just read the post about arctic mace. You can't use ma attacks unless you have both weapons with ma for combined attack. The mace is fairly slow and if dualled with a tiig you have to chew through absorbs twice.. FFB are ok for not swapping for flower of life.. But without challenger up their damage isnt even enough to compete that topped with nelebs stealing all your nano they aren't practical apart from duels.

[Esproc]

The comment on the arctic maces was counting that both weapons were the same.
It is simply not worth it.
The reqs for a version with damage comparable to even tears before counting proc would be just silly.

I left those old musings so the the train of thought was intact.
The issue I had with 1hb is that your damage is even more swingy/unreliable.
The high hits come at the cost of some very horribly low ones.

Tears have consistent/reliable base hits and the proc hits are comparable to the high hits from low QL Tiigs.
Difference being Tiigs benefit from the crit % from flurry etc where Tears are hard set at %8 proc chance and no crit bonus.

IE tears would be:
95-148 (0) Non-proc hit.
494-547 (0) Proc hit.
Not counting add damage.
The setup I use has 35 add damage at present before kneecaps/challenger/barrow.
Plan to switch the wrists to simians for +10 more.
With all the add damage stuff up the hits can be quite considerable.

[Original]

1: How is the damage on tears varying over 30% on normal swings, theres 0 difference in any sort of damage the tear does apart from reflects? And with your AR that sort of damage looks like PvP damage, if so the proc is 199 so how does it boost it up to 500?.. Doesn't seem to add up to me.

As for the damage of tiig vs tears. The best way to do it is work out average per hit. With tear the average is around 120-140 with chall, 8% 199 proc so +199*0.08 gives you 136-156 per hit.. Tiig would do 80-350(50) but ACs affect it. Against 2.5k AC youre down to 80-225(50). Giving you an average of 162.5 without including crits as you'll only have that with flurry. For the 20 seconds flurry is up you get 173.75 per hit. But if you aren't dual wielding the tears are 1.33x faster, so you get 180-207. But.. You get a bigger alpha with tiig, faster special recharges, brawl+fast both 30 secs, and dimach for really tight duels.

So vs enfos with tiig your damage will most likely be decreased compared to what you'd do with tears as you aren't dual wielding. But against docs/traders you can go further DEF without losing any damage and full AGG when debuffed for still 1/1. You can however put on a kyr ozch hammer/Ofab panther with no extra IP, You just gain chemical as a second damage type which affects you when people use totw pad..

Basically, tiig is better for traders/docs/ nano users etc, tears are better vs enfs/solds. Thats your choice there. If you equip a scope on the tiig, you can probably get the average damage higher than tears but it defeats the point of swapping..

[Esproc]

In practice:

Tears are better for traders/fixers
Remember that the proc is 199 No matter your AR or the targets Def

Tiig 1x or Tiig x2 better vs enfo/doc
Soldiers I think are about the same either way.
Not sure how agents feel about Tiigs

Tears push higher DD while TMS is up
Tiigs have the specials to quickly recover once TMS is down.

The damage I listed is nothing more or less than the raw numbers of the weapon alone from database.

That is a very accurate estimation of the tears average damage, think with everything up it's around 160-170 per hit in pvp.
Tiigs seem to average about 225 on hitting me with about a third of the hits going as low as 60ish high hits of about 400.

I agree it likely isn't worth the sacrifice for Kizzers if incomp shuts you down.
Traders could stop it either way but tears work well as long as you are in melee range.

[Original]

If you're considering lvl 49 tiig enfos, then ye, you'll get hit harder. But 1x tiig is not better vs enf than tear. On average tears damage is similar to a 105 tiig single wielded. And I should hope it's accurate, it should be exact if i knew exact AAO/Add all damage I just had to guess for them. Yes, if you get a ql 115+ tiig with a decent challenger you could hit 400 normals. But you'd have to see how high you can push 1hb at 25 with your desired setup before you consider the differences in damage. And yes I know about the tear proc vs fixers/trads, saved my life many a time on my 17 enf.

Tear will be base damage so it's 90 a hit every hit, no need for the 147 max concerning pvp. Think thats all that can be said really untill you work out what your setup would be with tiig, or if you change the current setup. Wish you the best of luck with the char .

[Esproc]

Hmm I might be jaded from that 31 enf with a 125 100% main hand and a 105 offhand.
But he isn't happy with the toon and is prolly gonna level it.
The only Enf I saw with single tiig was a 24 clanner with kizzers.
Haven't faced him in quite awhile so I dunno how that matchup is now, but he won pretty soundly before I did the higher tank chest and infantry helm.

Rest were all various dual wield setups @ 30-ish
The good ones seem to rip me apart rather easily 2600 AC's and 3400 hp be damned.
pretty much all of the dual wield setups did good damage vs me aside from the ones off-handing a kyr where the split damage type might as well have been an init de-buff for them.
One interesting enfo had sneak attack in the offhand from a Schiacciamento.
Tiig setup would be with full Commando for Kizzer's.
Pretty much have to go full out alpha with tiig or the occasional low hits will screw you.
In towers you need to be able to get through HnQ/RRFE or don't bother :/
I had picked up a 101 tiig so that I could keep it 100% under incompetence @ 21 but at the time I was planning to level into cleavers.
Now I may or may not leave the toon intact as a 25, at some point it may become practical to level him for some reason who knows.

As it is I am going to level a new toon for s10 unless something changes that makes ofab shoulders doable on a 150.
Since he already has 30% of the needed VP.