More info on LLTS nerf

[_______________Vyker]

This may have been said already didn't see it in the first post, this post or the melee-llts post so I'll post it here as my suggestion to what to do with this thing.

Possible mod to the QL200 ELLTS:

8% crit chance
-1500 Melee Init
-500 Nano Init
-200 Ranged Init

+30 Damage mod
+100 Off
Perception 200
Aim shot 50
Fling shot 50
Burst 50
Full Auto 50
Dodge-Rng 100

Equip time: 2s

Why the huge hit to Melee and nano? This item was IMO designed for ranged weapon users. Not an Enforcer with a beam or a Nano Tech that decides to use a ranged weapon secondary to his primary weapon of nukes.

Adding the Dmg Mod helps, no evade bonus other then ranged as this scope was intended (again my opinion here) to be a long ranged item.

What you end up with is an item that buffs ranged attacks, makes it utterly useless for melee to use (MA can still use it for bow, just need to take it out for melee)

My 2 cents worth on this.

[Nongo47]

Originally posted by Halfdeck


/rant on

Roughly (I'm no economist so don't argue with me, I will lose )
communist/socialist economy: everyone have access to items: same food, same car, same looking apartment, yadda yadda yadda.
Free-market economy: A select few owns multi-million dollar mansions or penthouse in Manhattan, other people live in the suburbs, others live in the ghetto, etc, etc, etc.

Argument goes, since not everyone has the cash to own 7 million dollar mansions, people who own them should relocate to the suburbs and the government should burn them down to the ground, and ban creation of any houses exceeding retail cost of 500k. This will sound good or bad to you depending on where you live, I suppose


Half

Hehe.

Well in an ideal world wouldnt it be great if everybody had the same chance getting that mansion or penthouse?

I belive with rare loot mobs everybody has the same chance, with enough time and effort you'll get the item you want. Although I dont like camping it have some merits.

In the case of llts something went extremly wrong.

If my family lives in the suburbs, i have a penthouse i spend nights in when i work in the city, and my crackwhore daughter is missing last seen in the ghetto, where does that put me?

[________AnotherFixer]

Cz,

I read about the suggestion of adding possible 200 RI to the scopes in order to compensate for the crit reduction.

This is a terrible idea.

Why? They way things are now, people had to decide on a set up that either favored speed or higher crit chances. The fact of the matter is, some people decided to go with slower guns that did much more standard damage and given that they were already slow, decided NOT to use a crit scope. Quite often, going hand in hand with this decision was a choice to go camp for the T.I.M. scope to increase RI.

Now you would make it a no-brainer that EVERYONE would want one of the changed scopes. RI increase along WITH a crit % !? This means that those who got rid of their old crit scopes are penalized.

Take, for instance the Manex December. This gun is slower than molasses. As such, you'd be foolish to try and use it with a high level crit scope. If you make the scopes have an RI bonus (EVEN GREATER THAN THE TIM SCOPE!?) then people would be stupid to have given up their old scopes or not to try and buy another one. You'd end up both speeding up the gun AND have it do more crit damage, thus completely imbalancing how that gun, and many of the other slower, high damage guns were supposed to function.

Ok, reduce the RI penalty on them, or remove it altogether, but offering a bonus in speed AND a crit% (even thoug the % is lower), goes right back to tipping the balance again.

[Hennessy]

Originally posted by Cz
Hi guys,

Just wanted to let you know I'm following the thread, but the patch today, connection trouble, and a backlog of e-mails, is making me extremely occupied at the moment, so I can't reply much.

Keep the feedback coming, and the discussion going. Allow me to throw a wild thought into it, just to get you one step closer to thinking I'm nuts :


If we were to take the suggestion from some of you to simply delete it (i.e. make it an item which you can only sell in shops for x credits), what would be proper compensation?

Considering that they've traded hands for big amount of money, and may 'force' people to change weapons, I'll start off the discussion with saying 4 IPR points and a shop-selling price of the (now useless) scope of 200 millions at QL 200.

A possibility, madness, or both?

That is a start, but like Besheba said, some of us have weapons that will need more than 4 IPR points to change weapons due to this change.

I am all for the 1 million credits per QL idea though. That will make me happy.

[____________Yeniferr]

I would like to see some new weapons out that aren't so dependent on crit if you are worried about us critting so much. Reason why we all use these weapons, at high lvls especially, is b/c you have us figthing Aces and RM's who have soooo much HP there is no way we can battle them w/o critting so much. Tone down the mobs some and give us weapons that can deal some reg dmg that aren't 4s attk time.

[______________Lilbob]

to be honest im not even going to say anything, except:

Noer You were Damn right!

[______________Othgar]

I like the 4+ IPR and the 1 Million per QL of Scope idea....

[__________Specialone]

Highjack's post above makes great sense -

If you (and the Dev team) insist upon tackling this issue while ignoring all the other GLARING issues that have been in AO since the beginning (and have continued to be introduced in each successive patch), you had better well make sure that your history of shortsightedness does not manifest itself down the line....

Whatever you do, it is fairly clear that not much attention is paid to the playerbase and their opinions. We call for bug fixes, we get nerfs that are tangential.

I agree that balance should be the goal, but GOD just look at the lingering issues that go unresolved patch after patch....after a year, most of us have a clear understanding of the game mechanics and how we choose to build our avatars depends greatly on the consistency of that system. You cannot simply change major gameplay dynamics because the Devs think ppl crit too much...Why are there so few Crats and Engies? Because the issues that have plagued the professions since the beginning have not been fixed.

I feel as though this whole ellts issue is some strange deflection tactic to get us arguing about something while off to the side something really sinister is brewing...

[_______________Sware]

Originally posted by Othgar
I like the 4+ IPR and the 1 Million per QL of Scope idea....

That would be the perfect way to remove ELLTS from the game without too much whining imo.

[Aqua]

Originally posted by Cz
Hi guys,

Just wanted to let you know I'm following the thread, but the patch today, connection trouble, and a backlog of e-mails, is making me extremely occupied at the moment, so I can't reply much.

Keep the feedback coming, and the discussion going. Allow me to throw a wild thought into it, just to get you one step closer to thinking I'm nuts :


If we were to take the suggestion from some of you to simply delete it (i.e. make it an item which you can only sell in shops for x credits), what would be proper compensation?

Considering that they've traded hands for big amount of money, and may 'force' people to change weapons, I'll start off the discussion with saying 4 IPR points and a shop-selling price of the (now useless) scope of 200 millions at QL 200.

A possibility, madness, or both?

CZ thats an interesting idea, but why not give people an option put some new bonuses on the scope and if people like it they can keep it, if not they can sell it to a shop for the money and IPR points.

~aqua

[Evilmery]

The way the scope work right now is perfectly fine, at least for PvM.

There is basically 3 viable options you can choose for your gun/scope

Slow gun, characterized by higher normal dmg and a lower crit - with a TIM scope. Pvm dmg 1-1100. The feeling you get from this in Pvm is that you poking a mob to death and it is really really boring. (personal impression). You will crit the least and those guns are prctically worthless in PvP. You dmg your oponent for about 100-300 normal dmg while taking lots of dmg from oponent reflect.

Medium speed gun (typical 2-2.5 sec speed) - with a VE or lower ql llts. Havent really tried any of these but from what i saw normal dmg avg about 600. The lower llts or VE will make you crit somewhat but definately not alot.

High Speed low dmg, high crit dmg gun - with 15% scope AND 7% ma critbuff. I am mentioning this because if you view them in a dmg calculator you notice that raid, ithaca, river DO LESS dmg over time than the above mentioned gun/scope combos if you fall below 20% crit. Raid pistols for example have a normal dmg or 10! on a typical vet or master mob, thus if you dont crit you do no dmg at all.

The way it is now, at least from a PvM perspective these guns do similar dmg over time and you wont see a major advantage for using critgun. Also notice that if you use a high ql llts with guns of the Type 1 or 2 you will do LESS dmg because your attackspeed is simply too slow.

There is however some unbalancing combinations with MAs and possibly agents. MA fists are very fast thus allowing the player to use a high ql ellts which shoots them up to ~40%. MA base dmg is about 400-600 and crits about 3k at very high speed. You can see the result daily at your normal novice MA wielding a river6. Possible solution: Make scopes 'cannot be wield by MA' AND give them a slight % increase to their own cribuff if you feel that MAs should be that masters if hitting vital spots (maybe 28% total for UVC) thus still giving them an advantage over the less trained normal profession. Do not take away critguns from MAs as they add a playing variant that some people enjoy.

The noob opinion that you just need a +15% scope to '0wn' is simply false and anyone that ever looked at gun/scope combos on a dmg over time bases will agree with me.

Now for PvP:
To me it seems and having tried both the fast/crit version and and slow/TIM combination i would favor the fast/crit combination because of the tactics people use. If you face it you will notice that you need to kill an oponent quickly with a few lucky shots or they will zone or run away once they get below half heh.
Also if you get critted too much try maxing and triple implanting evades and try a defensive setting.

Summary: a +15 scope make a certain type of guns VIABLE and not 'uber' on a dmg over time bases...

As for your suggested changed, and i have seen this mentioned on this thread before - Do not add a ranged init bonus to the scope else they will a.) be worthless for fast crit type guns since those are already fast and live thru crits .b) totaly imbalance type 1 and 2 guns becasue of the added init AND crit modifier. Having said this the solution could only be a high added dmg modifier along the lines of 400-600 dmg (yes sounds alot BUT remember that the typical gun that is used with those scopes does a normal dmg of 10-200). Adding an Offensive Mod to the scope 'may' be nice but might have issues with PVP and should be carefully and i mean carefully tested.

The main reason people crit so much is that they fight light yellow to green mobs later on and dont fight any reds anymore becasue they are simply not worth it.

As we have seen the scopes are fine and shouldnt be changed which seems to be the general player opinion. If you still nerf them you will rob the game of a fun variant of playing and if you keep the scopes viable you wont change the problem (people leveling too fast eh? ;P ) but you create a sub type of the weapon type 1 determined by normal dmg and not crits which is real boring and no read no fun.
People have suggested this for ages, make higher level mobs (200+) viable to be killed in missions and we will crit less.


But then, i am just a dumb customer that has no clue about game mechanics. I guess i will leave it to the Pros heh. I will decide if they are worth the $12/month for the work they do becasue thats the choice i have.

Just my 2 Cents
Mery


Edit: I still think taking them out of game or nerfing them is nonsense but the selling opition with 1mill is heh nice. And if you do, make some decent normal guns :/

[MartekO]

Originally posted by Cz
Considering that they've traded hands for big amount of money, and may 'force' people to change weapons, I'll start off the discussion with saying 4 IPR points and a shop-selling price of the (now useless) scope of 200 millions at QL 200.

Not too sure it is a good way to go.

There are folks who, by happenstance (being a packrat, etc.), serendipity, or by plain buying power, have stockpiled old LLTSs. This method gives those folks a way to "purchase" IPR points, or "give" them to others, including their various alts. And also you'd see these scopes have a new reason to be sold to others - as a way to "buy" some IPR points.

Heck, 4 IPR's per scope might actually make them more valuable than they are now! And those folks that do have a colllection of them might suddenly have an even bigger financial bonanza than the current (previous to this nerf announcement) high credit value they have held.

I don't think giving IPR's for trading in a scope would necessarily be a fair "fix" for the nerfing; and instead could end up creating a new, unintended, market of purchasable/tradable IPR points.

Cheers,
Martek

[Evilmery]

Originally posted by Martek-SLAG
Not too sure it is a good way to go.

There are folks who, by happenstance (being a packrat, etc.), serendipity, or by plain buying power, have stockpiled old LLTSs. This method gives those folks a way to "purchase" IPR points, or "give" them to others, including their various alts. And also you'd see these scopes have a new reason to be sold to others - as a way to "buy" some IPR points.

Heck, 4 IPR's per scope might actually make them more valuable than they are now! And those folks that do have a colllection of them might suddenly have an even bigger financial bonanza than the current (previous to this nerf announcement) high credit value they have held.

I don't think giving IPR's for trading in a scope would necessarily be a fair "fix" for the nerfing; and instead could end up creating a new, unintended, market of purchasable/tradable IPR points.

Cheers,
Martek

I dont think he meant that the IPR points would be tied to the scopes. Well....i hope not. lol

[Aqua]

Originally posted by Meryna


I dont think he meant that the IPR points would be tied to the scopes. Well....i hope not. lol

Hehe they could put a shady npc in the game that you trade a scope too, he would give you some credits an VE scope as a replacement and 4 IPR points but then he remembers you, how you stop this person from giving them to alts is beyond me unless you make them all nodrop during the patch.

~aqua

[_____________Hodelay]

Worthless Rant Inc.....

I think FunCom should just sack up and delete all the LLTS. There one day gone the next. Whamo! No lube or friendly reach-around. Thanks for playing.

Do you really think making a TIM Scopes with better mods will "balance" out the game??

As for compensation...what in the world am I gonna do with more worthless credits?? IPR?? Please what number of IPR can possible compensate for the amount of time I invested in making a character that can use one of these scopes. Try Class Reset Points.

Just spare yourself the trouble and delete the scopes because they are too powerful and send out a notice to everyone who has one..."thanks for playtesting"

End Rant...

Have a nice day!

[assassimon]

Last thing they should do is to make the LLTS range init only, what profs does that hurt most?

1) Enforcer, almost forced to use melee weapon
2) Adventurer, most adv use melee now, nerfs thenm hard
3) MA, not at all, will only make all MAs go with River series guns and keep doing insane damage(when they nerf those, we switch to Snakemaster)

So range only is a really stupid idea, if you nerf scopes because MAs are too overpowered, change for MAs then, make LLTS "Not wield by MA" if needed, but do not ruin for enf or adv too..


I don't think MA's are overpowered unless they use a River series 6 gun, so nerf the part that are overpowered instead, cuz it's not the scopes themselves.

(I don't want MAs nerfed ofcourse, I am one myself)


Do not make it possible to trade LLTS for creds, it only make a bad economy worse.

[Pneuma]

I do not use a LLTS, since I would rather spend my IP on Perception. Although, I own quite a few and my best one is a 9%. And I don't even use an 8% VE due to the detrimental effect of the Ranged Initiative penalty on the short duration Agt crit buffs. (Still clinging to my X-3) I currently use a 4% VE that I can self equip without any buffs. I would actually use one of these, HUD Upgrade: Enhanced Target Acquisition , if I could get my hands on one. Yet, this nerf upsets me. I strongly believe that I, as well as many others, have proposed a much better solution which appears to have fallen on deaf ears. The current plan will be far more disruptive and complex to implement, even driving many players from the game. Please, please, please I implore you to reconsider your plan to remove the LLTS from the game & implement the following alternative. Introduce the higher QL Targeting Scope - Vision Enhancer & reintroduce the Low Light Targeting Scope as missionable items. The Ranged Initiative penalty should be slightly lower for both scopes & the Range Increase, although irrelevant, should be the same. I would also like to see the Nanocasting Initiative penalty removed from the lower QL VEs or added to all the QLs, including the LLTS. Also, with the ip costs to equip them as they are, the LLTS should have a higher AS bonus than the VE. Please implement my suggestions.
Thanks for listening,

[toytd]

Maybe change it to HUD2 so that you can put other scopes on to compensate for the nerf??

This is after all an EXTREME LOW LIGHT TARGETING SCOPE, right? and I think the original ideas of how this item is suppose to work had been thought out by the desiners themselves, right? If you change the mechanics ( Not counting the crit bonus ) of this item then, you will need to change the name as well as it wouldn't make sense any more.

The scope is also intended for ranged weapons right ? and it is suppose to make a good couple with a low damage, high crit weapon right? This is what the designers had in mind from conception of this scope?? So here is what I think is a good idea:

Added requirements:

- Must wield range weapon
- LvL requirements

Location: Hud 2 ( perhaps give us abit less init penalty and not remove it entirely otherwise it doesn't make sense as an ELLTS. This way if we decide to put on the regular scope it will add to the init penalty and may not be worth it to put both on. Instead, it does give us more choices for eg. the T.I.M. scope )

Added Modifiers:

- A big perception bonus. ( Since we can see in practically darkness with this, it is pretty hard to hide from it )
- Some added damage modifiers would be nice.

my 2 Canadian cents

[____________Halfdeck]

Originally posted by Meryna
The way it is now, at least from a PvM perspective these guns do similar dmg over time and you wont see a major advantage for using critgun.

Good point Meryna.

In PvM, ql 200 SA defender with a TIM scope does similar if not more damage compared to a ql 199 snakemaster with a 15% scope, unless you have both TTS and MoP running.


Half

[luxferro]

give us a window of time that we can trade a LLTS in for some other item in the game...

Can i trade my scope for some GA4 please