More info on LLTS nerf

[odian102]

If the modification to the llts is in stone. then why not make the change fun and adds to the content of the game.

Heres the idea in a nutshell. Make the scopes personalized. What i mean is you can mod. it by using trade skills.

Example:
on 14.8: your llts is now 8% scope with a -350 range init with a number of modification points available to it. depending on what is was originally(not the ql lvl but based on the original critt %). For every crit % lost a modification point can be added.

- A 15% original llts has 7 modification slots on it.
a) you can acquire some of the modifcation trade skill devices in the store, while others are in chests, mob loot, boss loot.
b) A semi-rare tool can be added to the game that will allow you to remove the modifications to the scope.
c) the modification trade skill devices can come in different ql lvls.

-The lvl 250 Vision Enhancer would have 2 modification slots on it.
a) this will allow all players in the game to aquire one and have the ability to customize there scope. While increasing the overall trade skill line in the game.


Examples of modification devices the degree of modification is based on quality lvl)
+range init
+add def
+add off
+evades
+run speed
+map nav
+damage
+to reflection-several versions based on damage type
+range distance
+specials (general)
+multirange
+ a specific special ( aimshot, fling, FA, burst...)
...

Man, THIS WOULD BE FUN!!!!!!!!!!1
It adds to the content of the game. allows people to use trade skills. You can customize your scope to your needs. In my opinion, its a win win situation

[______________Hayake]

Originally posted by Kiryat-Dharin
Simple solution to the MA problem. Not gonna talk one way or another on the critscopes, but the MA problem is VERY easily fixed.

Make UVC/VS/etc. operate *only* while the MA is using his martial arts (fists and MA weapons).

There. That part of the problem, fixed.

Add bows to your list of things uvc would still work on and allow ma's to still use scopes as well and I can agree with that.

If scopes become ranged weapon only I suggest MoP becomes melee only

[Budicea]

Now I want to start of by saying I currently do not use a LLTS, but have thought about them. Basic problem being the massive amount of IP that has to be commited to equip one. That being said there is already a reason not to use these, masive IP costs.

And as I have seen others point out, they have spent this massive IP and have used reset points so the IP is basicly gone for no benefit once the changes go into affect.

Secondly, they are rare and expensive, and will only get more so as the game goes on. Many people who quit playing do not get rid of their stuff, on the off chance they may play again. LLTS goes poof outta the world. They do not drop, can not be bought in shops and can not be player made. Let time take care of this problem and they will fade away until there are so few left it makes minimal difference.

I have been playing since the beggining of this game, and one of the things that drew me to AO over DoAC when I left EQ was that AO said they were going to be for the consumers. Some people do not like other people having a LLTS, then make them drop again, if everyone has them the large ammounts of crits are available to everyone and it is not a game balance issue.

I don't use one, as stated above but there has been enough turmoil with friends and guildmates over this issue I felt I had to come say something, I would like my playtime to be fun again (that is what I pay my montly fee for) and this has upset enough people it is interfearing with my game time and I don't use the durn thing.

With Boss mobs out in the wilds and at the end of missions ther is really no such thing as doing to much damage anymore, when you HAVE to have at least one person in your group if not more die to bring down the MOB. The new and tougher MOBs are requiring more and more damage output from the players, then you tell us we are doing to much? Mixed messages like that will lead to lost customers.

I have known soldiers, MA's and 'forcers who use the LLTS, it is not class specific, or limited, let those who want to spend the IP do so.

[Elbo]

What makes no sense is :

They will be releasing QL400 Visual scopes sooner or later anyways with a +15 crit. WHY are they nerfing the ones currently in the game? Will you upgrade them to +15 when the QL400's are released??

What logic do you have that after a year and change you suddenly figure out that the scopes are criting to much?

Can you answer this:

Why does funcom insist on slowing down the leveling? Do you see lvl 200's leaving the game constantly? I see them everyday standing around waiting for some PvP action or some new content to come out for them to go off and wack dead. (QL220 implants for instance).

Why not throw in a Cyborg Snake or whatever in Broken Shores at the temple? Give people 1-2 more things to kill and they will be a bit happier with there time taken up wacking dead yet another boss that drops the 'oh so cool loot'.

I've been angry since they announced this nerf. Thanks FUnCom.

[Cheetra]

In a nut shell the developers are saying this ( correct me if i'm wrong Cz ):

The nerf to uvc being useable on everyone was not enough. Players are still doing to much damage.

While at the same time they are putting mobs in game with more and MORE hit points that ONLY get hit by crits, that take my guild Mercenaries of Kai ( considered by many to be one of the OT "uber" guilds ) what amounts to dog piling tactics on these mobs.

What do i mean by that? You are not even over rez effects and throwing yourself on the mob AGAIN ( read most raid members WILL die at LEAST 5 times prior to the mob finally kicking off ). I'm talking about raids with 4 -6 full teams here, not 6 folks that decide to go hunting a boss mob, I'm talking about enough people that my CORPSE is following around the boss mob for over 3 minutes prior to the SERVER realizing it need to get rezz'ed ( due to server side lag i can only assume, as i not the only person this happens to).

And some how we are doing to MUCH damage?!? Raids where the number of people involved are so high the servers can't handle the load, and we do too much damage?!? NONSENSE.

This is nothing short of an EXCUSE to once again slow down the players leveling attempts, even if only a select few with LLTS are effected ( at first glance ) in truth this effects everyone that groups with someone that has a LLTS as well.

The changes to LLTS are NOT going to solve that, ESPECIALLY with the up coming changes of init effecting recharges speed on weapons. MEANING this will not have as big an impact on leveling as the dev team thinks so expect another nerf to all damage soon.

If anything the chage to the way init effects weapon recharge will put more people doing better damage WITHOUT A LLTS. MEANING - average group damage will GO UP, hence why we should expect another nerf to damage soon.

The developers of this game often fail to have any idea how the rules the set actually effect game play, hire me for petes sake, i see interactions well and am honest enought not to only root for my choosed profession. *coughfixercough*

The list of the interactions the development team has failed to see is far to long for me to list here, but ever single nerf given has been direct result of that, making changes to items with other changes planed to change the combat system is NOT smart, especially with the planned changes will ALREADY effect the item they are thinking about nerfing. ( IE if recharge speed is effected by init and a players is taking a -800 init from a scope they WON'T be recharging as fast with one on ).


Let's take yet another look at this: in order to use high end scope there is a hefty investment in the skills to use a scope.

*****I have an alternate suggestion all togather, add the req's of the VE to the OLD LLTS of similiar ql and leave it at that, invested IP to do more damage, THAT is fair.******

The track record to date:

1) Dev says: players are over equiping:

what occured - mob difficulty was increased

result - players getting killed in missions more, leveling slower ESPECIALLY those that wheren't over equiped to start, MORE people start over equiping in an attempt to just make it through missions.

2) Dev says: players are still over equping ( as they now have to not to get smacked around like rag dolls ):

what occured - OE coding added to game. MOBS NOT CHANGED

result -hunting without a MA in team becomes a VERY bad idea, as the additional damage from crit buffs is needed to dispatch mobs. ( a LOT of ma's get started around this time as the ma luv'n patch finally happens ).

3) Dev says: players are "doing to much damage":

what occured- MA cirt buffs are made self only, new line of greatly reduced effectiness is introduced that is usable on others, agents are given self only crit buffs, and ones useable on others, crit buffs speeches introduced for crats ( VERY little benefit ) max effective non- agent non-MA crit buff % is lowered from 24% to +14% ( roughly i'm not looking this stuff up atm not sure on max % crit from crats but i think it's 2% ), max crit for agents and MA's now exceeds previous possible.

NOTE this is ONLY If the team is running buffs from all 3 porfessions.

result- the breaks are throw on leveling players are extremely dissatisified with the lack of visible progress in leveling.

4) Dev says: players aren't happy with the lack of leveling:

What occured - team mission are implemented ( finally ) and people start leveling again, mission exp awards for completion beind awarded to the entire team adds greatly to the draw to do team missions.

Result- players are leveling pretty rapidly again.

5) Dev says: players are doing too much damage, already nerfed crit buffs.. what else can we nerf?

what occured - LLTS is removed from drop tables, in the patch message we are told to treasure them as that's it their won't be more. reduced version of the LLTS *using completely different abilities to equip* with about 50% of the old LLTS max +% to crit is made and put in game, HOWEVER aquiring these highest end ones requires running ql 250 missions ( very dangerious mission reguardless of level of the team or make up ).

Result - LLTS values skyrocket, over night these items become THE most valueable items in AO. As per the patch message they are kept, they are cherished, and they are still in use.

6) Dev says: players are leveling too quickly in team missions. we should add unique spawns in really dangerious spots where exp looks really good until the boss spawns and kills everyone. IE increase mob tuffness( again ).

What occurs - dyna camps are instituted with ramdom spawn boss mobs that can and WILL wipe out just about everyone actually hunting for exp in the area if aggro'ed.

result - only the heaviest hitting ( largest ) factions even have a chance at these mobs as the man power and level of cordination to take them down precludes all but the best and highest level players. Never the less that is what happens, even though the bosses are adjusted to insane hit point levels, hit incredibly hard, are in some cases given PETS, and are in fact VERY difficult to land anything BUT a crit on ( mostly the players are hittting air ).

7) Dev says: players are doing too much damage: aka our boss mob got killed!!!

What occurs - dev decides to nerf the LLTS still in game, the last bastion of MANY players hopes for doing GOOD damage.

Results - yet to be determined.


Do you see the cycle?

Players get smart and development team nerfs us, the issue isn't damage, the issue isn't pvm, the issue isn't pvp, the issue is that every time players level at a rate the dev team doesn't anticipate OR do things the dev team seems to put in game not as challenges, but as obstcales we are to never over come, WE get nerfed.

The intent is pretty clear: kill the players as often as possible, allow them to gain a min of exp in the mean time.



STOP THE CYCLE HERE.

Do us a favor and have the dev team stick to bugs, new content and stay the heck away from "balance" issues, they suck at trying to figure them out, as their track record has show time and time again IMO.

[Elbo]

Originally posted by Cheetra

STOP THE CYCLE HERE.

Do us a favor and have the dev team stick to bugs, new content and stay the heck away from "balance" issues, they suck at trying to figure them out, as their track record has show time and time again IMO.

Can I get a AMEN out of the crowd?

[gnuman]

I just calculated damage on the modified queenblade equipped on my lvl 200 trader with no scope compared to Ithaca snakemaster with a 15% scope.


Queen Blade:
Your critical hit will be 5709 points.
Your normal hits will maybe vary between 2439 and 5449 points.
Over 10 seconds you would maybe do an average of 5074 points of damage. (1.23 normal, 0.04 critical hits)

Ithaca Snakemaster:
Your critical hit will be 3758 points.
Your normal hits will maybe vary between 16 and 855 points.
Over 10 seconds you would maybe do an average of 4447 points of damage. (3.53 normal, 0.77 critical hits)


I know its not always how it is in reality. Overpowered scopes my arse.

[assassimon]

Nerf Queen Blade!

FIX! BUMP! NERF! *HUGGLES*

[gnuman]

fu

that wasn't my point Azz :P

[labrutte]

So this nerf won't be for 14.6 but 14.8. Hmmm very good idea, funcom you are the master, nerfing all your old players just in time to get AC2 and SWG.

Is there someone who know a little business in your society ?
Or is it a dev who choose the strategic line ??
Cause nerfing all the players who gave you money for one year is not the best.

So if my information are good this nerf will come just when AC2 beta will end and with SWG open beta or release


Oh btw only IPR point will keep me in this game i have to change my weapon don't want to keep shotgun maxed if i don't use it anymore.
And why you must give this IPR points ? Cause you LIE to your customer and this is very bad......




Lachaude doc 151 rk2
and many more

[_______________Vyker]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Vyker (edits by Airri)

Possible mod to the QL200 ELLTS:

8% crit chance
-1500 Melee Init edit: makes it useless to Enforcers, and other non-MA melees
-500 Nano Init edit: why? there is no such malus now.. so this would be another major nerf, dont expect a life saving Complete Heal in time from your Doc with this
-200 Ranged Init edit: not enough, you loose 7% on crit, there must be a considerable Init Bonus

+30 Damage mod
+100 Off
Perception 200
Aim shot 50 edit: there is already a higher Aimed Shot Bonus, again another nerf
Fling shot 50 edit: does not help people without this
Burst 50 edit: does not help people without this
Full Auto 50 edit: does not help people without this
Dodge-Rng 100
Equip time: 2s

***
Yes the intent is to make it utterly useless to Melee class not using a ranged weapon =)

Why the Nano Init hit? Does it say: Low Light Nano Tech/Meta/etc etc Targeting scope....?

Yes, reduce the Aimed shot some. Good lord if you need the Aimed shot buff to put a weapon on, get a smaller weapon and live with it.

Yes it doesn't help folks without it, but it does help a large portion of the RANGED weapon users. Currently there aren't any easily attainable items that would provide this bonus to you. Hell I know a ton of traders that would love to have something else give a Fling Shot buff.

Side note on the nano init hit... Nano Init is for most nano based classes a green or light blue skill, not a hard one to push up some to keep the nano's casting faster. Why should they get a bonus to doing damage with a weapon when their primary attacks are nano's?

[____________Fishtaco]

very nice history of Rubi-ka Cheetra, nice post keep it up


Cz take that to the Devs asap !!!!

[___________Firedrake]

I was going to post to beg that FC ignore the idiotic suggestion to increase Melee and Nano inits on the ellts, but realized that even FC's devs can't find enough crack to smoke to make that suggestion sound good to them.

[Argulace]

Originally posted by Hayake


/sarcasm on

Well by your definition only agents should be allowed to use scopes. After all I'd say aimed shot is supposed to be an agent perk.

Ofcourse since almost everyone runs around w X-3s and ithicas that have aimed shot this is kind of a moot point, but I'm just helping you to get the logical conclusion here and I'm sure you agree with me that they should just slap an 'agent only' requirement on every single gun that uses aimed shot.

Iow your post is complete bs, noone uses scopes for the aimed shot bonus. Everyone wants it for the crit bonus.

What you suggest is making the scopes unusable for melee professions and especially for ma's. Which means ma's get 24% crit chance and oh my god, mr Argulace with his 15% crit scope will sure as hell find an ma stupid enough to buff him with MoP so he ends up at... almost the same crit chance! And he has grid armor! And roots! And evac! And hots! And snares! And range!

See anything wrong with that picture?

MA's and melee professions have as much right to the scopes as anyone else, if only they had given the darned things some other name...

MA's are supposed to crit a whole lot more than every other profession. Besides that they have green evades, crap heals and no range that's it.

What you are trying to say is that you just want a certain classes unique attribute for yourself. Sure you can have it, just give me your hots, range, evac, aso then.

btw since you already post that you are of the opinion that
'it does more harm than good' overall for melee professions to use scopes, why even bother making them ranged weapons only?

Or are you such a nice and caring person that you just wish to protect all of us melee users from ourselves? As we will be dumb enough to gimp ourselves by using a scope that is obviously no good for us? Wow, aren't we lucky we got uncle Arg to protect us from making such a dumb mistake?

/sarcasm off

At the risk of starting a debate (which I don't want to do), this nerf will cause a chain reaction which would effect Doctors, Fixers, Traders, Crats, MP's, Soldiers, some Adventurers and even some MA's.

Without going into too much detail, most melee professions use brawl as their primary, repetitive special attack. This along with sneak/fast attack allow these professions to have incredibly high recharge special attacks which usually break passed any evades/grid armor/etc.

Add the fact that the recharge on all melee (save Diamach) special attacks are infinitely faster than ranged attack recharge times and what you have is an edge. Not only in the fact that your recharge for specials is faster, but your actual attack times are faster.

I've pvp'd with every profession in the game and was at the top of Novice before Grid Armor was even worth anything in pvp.

I can tell you, there is a reason those Veteran Techhunters / MA / Enforcer profession mobs kick butt. The reason is because they attack FAST and do incredibly HIGH damage over time. In fact, MA's are usually tanks in teams now, pulling agro from even the most skilled Enforcers.

I do not dispute the need for equippable crit items for Enforcers, however I do not believe that they should have the ability to use LLTS type scopes because coupled with the high speed and high minimum damage of an enforcer, this type of a device is overly powerful.

I spoke to an MA last night, a level 200 MA. I was informed that the only init MA's ever actually need is 150 in the positive to max their speed. This means an MA could actually max the melee init skill, equip a scope of medium Quality (LLTS for example) and gain an extra 12 or so crit% without any type of slowdown.

The Init for a ranged weapon profession is much much more skill dependant. For me to have 1/1 with a 2/1 weapon, I need to have 600 positive ranged init (numbers not proven by DEV team but VERY close to accurate).

That being the case, I equip a QL 195 scope for 15% crit but end up slowing my gun down because of it.

One could say, well you can root and run and so on.

Fact is, none of these arguments are valid because with the scopes and movement predictors, most melee professions can hit you from 8-12 meters away. On top of that, you can hit on the run and I am unable to do so. Add that to having to use a root 2-3 times before it sticks and the fact that roots are about the easiest debuff in the game to break means this scope situation is simply unbalancing.

Take an item like the Blood Bat for example. Should an enforcer be able to equip a QL 250 scope, gain the range and the crit% with that weapon without any sort of penalty to their speed?

Absolutely not.

When I equip its only real competition on a soldier (CHS), and I use a scope (an item designed for ranged professions) I loose speed. This seems like an acceptable solution to everyone? I think not.

It is my belief that soldiers (for example) have issues with attack ratings/speed which is why they suffer over all from the ability to do fast sustained damage to their opponents.

As a fixer, I am a sort of mini soldier and I suffer from the same problems.

Imagine being a Crat, without the ability to buff your own ranged weapon skills. Now add this scope to the crat because they NEED it, slow their weapon down and add that to their sub standard attack rating. Now they are slow AND they can't hit you.

Take a Doctor for example. We all know they win usually by out lasting you, but are you really afraid of any doctor doing large amounts of damage? Absolutely not, because they fire every 10 minutes by comparison.

This problem is a serious one for folks who want to play the game solo. The soldier needs the crit to be successful vs. a mob. Same for most other ranged professions.

Fixers with Grid Armor can certainly solo missions their level. But what does that do for the 90% of the fixer population that do not have Grid Armor?

FC says professions are too powerful versus their mobs and in PVP and that’s the reason for this nerf.

I say they are absolutely right, except that the scope is NOT overly powerful for ranged professions, only melee types and especially those melee types that are capable of healing themselves significantly while in combat.

I do not know a level 200 MA who is unable to solo a QL 200 team mission. Is there something wrong with that?

Well, yes, especially if a level 200 soldier can’t. Especially if a level 200 Trader cant. Especially if a level 200 Doctor can't.

I don't claim to have all the answers but I do know this. MA's aren’t hurting for crits. Enforcers do incredibly HIGH sustained damage and have UBER attack ratings. Adventurers are incredible in 1v1 pvp and in pvm.

So you tell me, who's actually getting hurt here? Keep in mind, Arg is not my only character, I play a couple different toons and one of them is melee. This is not about fixers, this is a global issue.

By definition, Soldiers should be awesome front line hard hitting heavy damage professions. They are not. Heck, a level 200 soldier can not solo missions 20QL lower than his/her level.

Now you guys wanna' take their crits away?

This is obscene the more I think about it. It’s absolutely ridiculous. If you want to balance the scopes, leave them alone and just disable them when the profession uses any type of melee weapons. That will balance your concerns with over powerful melee professions and it will allow the ranged professions to at least stay where they are with damage dealing.

Arg

[aaronb]

That was a great post, Argulace. Thank you. You covered every issue I have with this.

[odian102]

This could work!

the code is already in the game "implants". All funcom needs to do is modify it to apply to scopes. The bonus code is already in the game as while "clustors"

idea:
=============================================
If the modification to the llts is in stone. then why not make the change fun and adds to the content of the game.

Heres the idea in a nutshell. Make the scopes personalized. What i mean is you can mod. it by using trade skills.

Example:
on 14.8: your llts is now 8% scope with a -350 range init with a number of modification points available to it. depending on what is was originally(not the ql lvl but based on the original critt %). For every crit % lost a modification point can be added.

- A 15% original llts has 7 modification slots on it.
a) you can acquire some of the modifcation trade skill devices in the store, while others are in chests, mob loot, boss loot.
b) A semi-rare tool can be added to the game that will allow you to remove the modifications to the scope.
c) the modification trade skill devices can come in different ql lvls.

-The lvl 250 Vision Enhancer would have 2 modification slots on it.
a) this will allow all players in the game to aquire one and have the ability to customize there scope. While increasing the overall trade skill line in the game.


Examples of modification devices the degree of modification is based on quality lvl)
+range init
+add def
+add off
+evades
+run speed
+map nav
+damage
+to reflection-several versions based on damage type
+range distance
+specials (general)
+multirange
+ a specific special ( aimshot, fling, FA, burst...)
...

Man, THIS WOULD BE FUN!!!!!!!!!!1
It adds to the content of the game. allows people to use trade skills. You can customize your scope to your needs. In my opinion, its a win win situation.

[sloburn]

First I have to say that I understand the nerf in a way.. people crit way to much as it is today. However, if this nerf is coming from whining by players who never owned or prolly never will own a llts they will still complain when the modified llts scopes gets implemented and will the new scopes get nerfed after a few months again due to jelaousy?

There must be another way to balance all the guns, it is sad to see how almost every profession goes for the same weapons.. traders will (after llts nerf) go for HD's, advys uses SOL's, agents uses X3's, atrox enforcers (50% of all enf's) uses beam..

I don't think it's FC's idea that everyone would look like clones of eachother, there are lots of guns and equipment in the game, too bad most of them suck without additional boosts like scopes. A mmorpg is a lot about everyone having their own personality and most of it comes from equipment.. what would Mad Max be without his sawed of shotty or Dirty Harry without his M.44?

I have no ideas about any changes tho.. the whole thing is messy as it already is and nerfing the scopes won't clean anything up even if I can see the intentions FC has.

Btw, Odians post about personalizing scopes sounds awesome, great idea!

[______________Hayake]

Originally posted by Argulace_MoK

At the risk of starting a debate (which I don't want to do), this nerf will cause a chain reaction which would effect Doctors, Fixers, Traders, Crats, MP's, Soldiers, some Adventurers and even some MA's.

Agreed that it will cause a chain reaction. And I can understand you wish to avoid a debate on it as you undoubtedly know most of the things you say are bs.

Originally posted by Argulace_MoK

Without going into too much detail, most melee professions use brawl as their primary, repetitive special attack. This along with sneak/fast attack allow these professions to have incredibly high recharge special attacks which usually break passed any evades/grid armor/etc.

MA's (your primary victim) have the following specials:
brawl
dimach (every 30 mins)
and I'll add BwT so that we are certain to be complete although fi equipping a claw will make using MA attacks unusable.

MA's do not have sneak attack, fast attack...

Originally posted by Argulace_MoK

I spoke to an MA last night, a level 200 MA. I was informed that the only init MA's ever actually need is 150 in the positive to max their speed. This means an MA could actually max the melee init skill, equip a scope of medium Quality (LLTS for example) and gain an extra 12 or so crit% without any type of slowdown.

At the cost of being on full aggro all the time. This may not be a disadvantage in pvm but surely is one in pvp.

Originally posted by Argulace_MoK

The Init for a ranged weapon profession is much much more skill dependant. For me to have 1/1 with a 2/1 weapon, I need to have 600 positive ranged init (numbers not proven by DEV team but VERY close to accurate).

Sure some ranged weapons are a bit slower than fists things like ithica's fi which is what a good % of llts users use are not. Why pick on fists or melee weapons in general?

Originally posted by Argulace_MoK


One could say, well you can root and run and so on.

Fact is, none of these arguments are valid because with the scopes and movement predictors, most melee professions can hit you from 8-12 meters away. On top of that, you can hit on the run and I am unable to do so. Add that to having to use a root 2-3 times before it sticks and the fact that roots are about the easiest debuff in the game to break means this scope situation is simply unbalancing.

First of scopes and movement predictors add a % not a number of meters. Please show me an ma or other melee user that can get even close to the 8-12m you mention.

Also I think it is very, very easy of you to say. Well my roots, incredible runspeed, grid armor, hots and the 'get out of jail for free card' known as evac are useless.

My point is critting a loot more than any other profession is what makes an ma unique and is the only thing an MA excells at. You want this nerfed bigtime.
Please enlighten me why I would even bother to keep on playing my ma if every other profession can crit almost as much as me
and have a ton of other usefull skills on top of that?

Originally posted by Argulace_MoK

Take an item like the Blood Bat for example. Should an enforcer be able to equip a QL 250 scope, gain the range and the crit% with that weapon without any sort of penalty to their speed?

Absolutely not.

As far as I know noone has the blood bat yet, and even if some people manage to acquire it you think it is best to screw the 99.99% of the melee users that do not have it, nor will ever have it so the 0.01% of melee players that do have it aren't uber?

Isn't it the point of things like the blood bat, edge of tarra aso that they are so rare that they are uber by nature?

Originally posted by Argulace_MoK

It is my belief that soldiers (for example) have issues with attack ratings/speed which is why they suffer over all from the ability to do fast sustained damage to their opponents.

Something we agree on and most plaers agree on. Soldiers are the weakest tank class atm and they need some love compared to enforcers and ma's. However using this as an excuse to get a boost for your own profession at the expense of melee users is pathetic.

Originally posted by Argulace_MoK

As a fixer, I am a sort of mini soldier and I suffer from the same problems.

No, you are not a mini-soldier. If you were you would have tms and reflect and nothing else that is usefull. You are a fixer, you have hots, grid armor, evac aso.

Unlike soldiers you are not a tank class, nothing in your profession description says you should do uber damage compared to other professions. Your strenghts lie elsewhere.

Originally posted by Argulace_MoK

Imagine being a Crat, without the ability to buff your own ranged weapon skills. Now add this scope to the crat because they NEED it, slow their weapon down and add that to their sub standard attack rating. Now they are slow AND they can't hit you.

Take a Doctor for example. We all know they win usually by out lasting you, but are you really afraid of any doctor doing large amounts of damage? Absolutely not, because they fire every 10 minutes by comparison.

Same argument as above. Doing great damage is not something these professions should do. Some of them have issues, but none of them require a boost to their damage output. Their issues are fi pet pathing.

Originally posted by Argulace_MoK

This problem is a serious one for folks who want to play the game solo. The soldier needs the crit to be successful vs. a mob. Same for most other ranged professions.

No argument as long as you keep in mind that my definition and yours of what ranged weapons classes are varies wildly.

You consider every class that equips a gun a ranged weapon class. I say that that is bs.
There are only 2 ranged weapon classes in the game: agents and soldiers. The others are melee classes, pet classes, nuking classes, healing classes and fixers who are kindof a class on their own.

By your definition a doc is a ranged weapon class. Please enlighten me what class a doc that uses ma as attack is then?

Originally posted by Argulace_MoK

Fixers with Grid Armor can certainly solo missions their level. But what does that do for the 90% of the fixer population that do not have Grid Armor?

Aah now you show pity for the fixers that do not have grid armor, isn't it strange then that a little bit above you use the blood bat as one of the reasons to nerf melee classes a weapon that NOT ONE person has??

Your sympathy for pple that do not have uber items is very touching Arg, too bad it only seems to surface when you can use it to your own advantage.

Originally posted by Argulace_MoK

I do not know a level 200 MA who is unable to solo a QL 200 team mission. Is there something wrong with that?

Well, yes, especially if a level 200 soldier can’t. Especially if a level 200 Trader cant. Especially if a level 200 Doctor can't.

I am a 196 MA, I am by no means a gimp. I have a 14% llts. I can not solo a 196 team mission. I can solo the first floor and maybe the second. I can not solo the real means that will inevitably pop up after that.

Please tell me which 200MA can solo a 200 Team Mission. As far as I know from posts on the MA boards, some 200 MA's USED TO be able to do it, before reflect bracers got nerfed. (something you had a hand in I believe btw) I still have to hear of 200 ma's that can still do it.

Originally posted by Argulace_MoK

So you tell me, who's actually getting hurt here? Keep in mind, Arg is not my only character, I play a couple different toons and one of them is melee. This is not about fixers, this is a global issue.

By definition, Soldiers should be awesome front line hard hitting heavy damage professions. They are not. Heck, a level 200 soldier can not solo missions 20QL lower than his/her level.

Same remark as made above. No disagreement that soldiers need a bit of a boost, pathetic to use it to further your own goals pretending that you are selflessly doing this out of pity for 'those poor soldiers.'

Originally posted by Argulace_MoK

This is obscene the more I think about it. It’s absolutely ridiculous. If you want to balance the scopes, leave them alone and just disable them when the profession uses any type of melee weapons. That will balance your concerns with over powerful melee professions and it will allow the ranged professions to at least stay where they are with damage dealing.
Arg

At no point I saw a statement by FC claiming they think melee professions did too much damage.

The only statement I saw was that they were asking for suggestions to keep llts keep their value. (great way to make them keep their value btw, slap a ranged weapon only requirement on them)

Please point me to the statement where FC says MELEE professions in specific do too much damage. I must have missed that one. (ironic)

I'm sorry to say this but to me it sounds like the only thing you care about is making your own profession as uber as possible.

[Argulace]

.... ehh, ok.

I have opinions, you have opinions, they are different. Nothing wrong with that. Some of our opinions are the same, even better.

If you wish to continue this debate in another thread I'll be happy to do so. I won't further comment here having said my peace pretty much.

As far as your personal attacks, stating that I have my personal interests in mind with regard to my postings, yep, i do have my personal interests in mind to a degree but I am also here for the 160 people in my org who look to me for leadership and help when they feel wronged.

My opinions on this matter can be relayed from researching the many different opinions and technical discussion had with members of MoK every day.

This is not one person, yapping to save his .02% of the population, its partually that but nowhere near the majority of my reason for being here in this thread.

This nerf effects MORE of the populace in a negative way than it does in a positive way. That means the majority of my org will be unhappy with this nerf which in turn means I have to combat issues of their needs and activity within MoK.

I suggest that next time you resort to personal attacks on someone you at least attempt to educate yourself on that persons perspective.

Your comments are appreceated, but you can take your attacks on my reasons for being here and my person and shovel them directly where the sun never shines.

[______________Lilbob]

sorry arg i tend to disagree with you here, nerf it for melees?

once again you forget that engies will suffer AGAIN if they do this

we were forced to turn ma at no choice of our own in order to do decent pvp or pvm dmg by making use of our best buff we have (slayer transference) or simply we would remain completely overlooked.

now as you are saying, turn the scope off for melee types?
remember when you day this:

engies have no crits other than the scope.
engies do NOT do all that good damage without slayerdroid transference and without crits. (dark blue MA skills)
dont get me into the issue about wall humpers (pets), which FC said was a "priority" to fix, shows pet pathing isnt that much of a priority when you would rather mess about nerfing stuff than doing what you are supposed to do.

yes i agree with some classes the new scope (no matter what we say now we cant stop FC doing this) should be with lower crit%, but it shouldnt simply be taken from them, they invested a LOT of time and creds into getting one of these scopes on and the fact that you are needless to say suffering from green eyed jealousy of the mas and enfs, what are you crying about it for, they hardly hit you in MKIV, heck with all my attack rating (1246 fully buffed 15% scope) i wouldnt be able to hit you at all because if we want to get down to the context of overpowered then fixers definatley take the torch for it. i mean which other class can rack up a total of 3.2k evades and can evac from a fight when they are losing?

to be honest if they take off the scopes from melee classes then they either need to:

reimburse those classes for there losses (ip reset points to get there ip back)
revise the add all def rating of GA and remove evac from pvp and to make it fair up the drop rating on GA.

once again im sick and tired of seeing classes in constant power struggles to see theres become god of pvp, there should be no pvp gods everyone should have equal strengths and weaknesses (fat chance of that lol!), you wanna try being in our shoes for a while in pvp (you fixers were but now you act like that time never was) and see how you like life as the worst pvp class. No this isnt a i want engies to become pvp gods, thatd be bull**** and id be equally upset as it isnt what i want, a fair chance in pvp IS what i want like actually fixing our auras for instance?

no matter what they do to the scope at 14.8 they should at least give everyone ip reset points, as some may not benifit from the scope and may want rid, and as said before by many of the people have said, a reimbursal of creds to those that have folked out a damn fortune for them, as your going to have to do something REALLY special to keep the worth of the LLTS now.