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Thread: More info on LLTS nerf

  1. #241

    What we get in exchange?

    Ok fact is you nerfing critcal chance. No matter what other boost will new LLTS have there isnt any weapons that are good and not depended on critcals? Why ithaca is good weapon? Nice damage with 13+ llts nice range and 2 speicals. Why river is good weapon for pvp again nice damage with 13+ scope nice range and good special. Why raid is good for pvp its chemical damage and very fast and good damage with 15 scope.

    Why X3 is PoS weapon for pvp with doctor? It does has nice damge but uber high requements titile lvl 5 doctor will be oed after riffle inexperience. Its slow its riffle, riffle is caped at 539 for doctor we cant get good attack rating with it which is only way to do good damge witht hat weapon. Why homedefender is PoS weapon in pvp even if everyone will have max of 8 chance to crit. Its slow and has 15 meeters range plus does projectle damge and has no specials. Even raid was short range but chemical damage and 4 second fling shot was making it up.

    i didnt write this weapon guide for doctor just looking at weapons i tested them all and i know what is good.

    Now please all i want is to be sure that with nerf on LLTS you will also add viable weapons that will be just like our favorite weapons aka shotgun/pistols but not crit depended.
    Two sisters practicing medicine on Rubika and Shadowlands Pomy and Julka.

    As a doctor i would prescribe you to use some common sense and a vacation to Real Life"

    If i ever start a new character in Eve i will choose a name something like "aieerjjnnvajjnasdio11e3".

  2. #242
    Why not give the scope some DMG and reflect skills maybe only active when the player is attacking and auto reload option for guns after fights.
    Almost every battle i forget to reload my guns so in the next battle my pistols are reloading when i fired my first few shots.

    This for say like 9% ELLTS.

    Reflect damage +18
    Add Damage All +18
    Concealment +90
    Parry +90
    Evades +90
    Multi Ranged +45
    Multi Melee +45
    Ranged Init -360
    AutoReload ON/OFF (maybe able to press button te reload weapons)

    This for say like 4% ELLTS.

    Reflect damage +8
    Add Damage All +8
    Concealment +40
    Parry +40
    Evades +40
    Multi Ranged +20
    Multi Melee +20
    Ranged Init -160
    AutoReload ON/OFF (maybe able to press button te reload weapons)

    But i'm also against for nerfing the ELLTS but if they do give us some nice bonuses on those scopes

  3. #243
    Ok, the nerf is happening, and I want to know how chars are supposed to recover from being broken by this nerf in terms of wasted IP for weapons that will be rendered useless.

    Users of Ithaca Ki-8 Snakemaster and similar fast weapons with low (trivial) regular damage and high crits, will have to change weapons that require other skills. There are no fast shotguns with high regular damage as well as decent crits. Slow, hard-hitting guns will be the only alternative, like the Home Defender (still not good enough imho). This means:
    • Wasted IP in Fling Shot (dark blue for most)
      Wasted IP in Aimed Shot (dark blue for most)
      Wasted IP in Weapon Smithing
      Wasted IP in Elec. Engineering
      Wasted IP in Shotgun if this is not the best weapon for them any more
      Wasted IP in Ranged/Melee Init. if one has to switch from ranged to melee weapons or vice versa (Thanks to Jislyn for pointing that out below)

    That is what will tick people off, and will force people to start new chars or quit if they don't happen to have at least 5 IPR points extra. Many people don't have time in their life to start all over (I know I don't, having a job and RL friends to, haha). This is in my opinion extremely unreasonable to expect players to accept, having invested huge amounts of time and effort into acquiring the said skills, and money to buy the rare scopes. I have bought 6 scopes for my chars, = alot of money and boring mission blitzing!

    If the new nerfed version LLTS make the mentioned weapon types unviable any more, more IPR will have to be given as compensation, unless Funcom wants to seriously upset a lot of players, many of which are high level 'old timers' who might just quit if they are ticked off sufficiently. So please Funcom, don't forget this in your eagerness to balance the game. I beg you.
    Last edited by Bothead; Oct 4th, 2002 at 11:46:24.
    Bret 'Bothead' Bannister
    Member of Rising Phoenix

  4. #244
    Giving everyone extra IPR points for a minority's benefit is a bit of an overkill isn't it?
    Charles 'Kithrak' Houston - Equipment
    Administrator, Omni-Admin
    Bringing the politics of Rubi-Ka to life!

    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster....when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..." -Friedrich Nietzsche-

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  5. #245
    Originally posted by Argulace_MoK

    At the risk of starting a debate (which I don't want to do), this nerf will cause a chain reaction which would effect Doctors, Fixers, Traders, Crats, MP's, Soldiers, some Adventurers and even some MA's.


    Now you guys wanna' take their crits away?

    This is obscene the more I think about it. It’s absolutely ridiculous. If you want to balance the scopes, leave them alone and just disable them when the profession uses any type of melee weapons. That will balance your concerns with over powerful melee professions and it will allow the ranged professions to at least stay where they are with damage dealing.


    Thanks you Arg. U spoke right out of my heart!´

    I just wonder why Funcom allways starts (nerf)threads likes these without comming up with some suggestions first on how players will be treatet who allready used all thier IRP and needs/wants to change weapon even. This comes b4 the discussion about how to nerf the scope!

    And it is not only a scope nerf. it's nerf of most weapons too.

    You can't start a thread with the topic " I'm nerfing your scope and the chance to survive/kill a orange mob. But i can do ya a XP bonus or a dmgadd on that."

    I guess i'll see most of the supportprof. back with a X3 anyway!
    I really wonder how FC will balance the scope cause i really don't have a clue. The only thing i know is that funcom is making me breathless with all these changes. It's like living in a flat you can't really use cause it's allways under cunstruction!

    Bettyblue RK1

    P.S.: I want 5 IPR Points!!! EE/WS/Shotty/Fling/aimed

  6. #246

    6-8 IPR Points

    hmm, some peeps will need about 6-8 IPR points just to change weapons and not be gimped. all this because you are changing an item that you said would not be changed. why we believed that promise, i'm not sure. =(

    most peeps forget you might switch from ranged to melee or vice versa with this nerf too, so you need to reset Ranged Init or Melee Init as well...
    Cristyna (102 Adventurer) RK 2
    Jisel (75 Doctor) RK 2
    Jislyn (84 Adventurer) RK2

  7. #247
    quite disgusting eally that they would throw out another nerf like this instead of making the vision enhancers have a comparable crit increase, but we're here for ideas not bellyaching since they're gonna friggin' do it wehter we want em to or not

    here's what i'd except in compensation for the crit loss and millions spent in buying up what llts i could

    1)evade boost based on ql(something reasonable considering the money and crit chance lost too, not something piddly like +50 evades at ql 200)

    2)large xp % increase. ie 10% on the higher end llts'

  8. #248

    Re: Same cycle of lack of Development team understanding.

    Originally posted by Cheetra
    In a nut shell the developers are saying this ( correct me if i'm wrong Cz ):

    The nerf to uvc being useable on everyone was not enough. Players are still doing to much damage.

    While at the same time they are putting mobs in game with more and MORE hit points that ONLY get hit by crits, that take my guild Mercenaries of Kai ( considered by many to be one of the OT "uber" guilds ) what amounts to dog piling tactics on these mobs.

    What do i mean by that? You are not even over rez effects and throwing yourself on the mob AGAIN ( read most raid members WILL die at LEAST 5 times prior to the mob finally kicking off ). I'm talking about raids with 4 -6 full teams here, not 6 folks that decide to go hunting a boss mob, I'm talking about enough people that my CORPSE is following around the boss mob for over 3 minutes prior to the SERVER realizing it need to get rezz'ed ( due to server side lag i can only assume, as i not the only person this happens to).

    And some how we are doing to MUCH damage?!? Raids where the number of people involved are so high the servers can't handle the load, and we do too much damage?!? NONSENSE.

    This is nothing short of an EXCUSE to once again slow down the players leveling attempts, even if only a select few with LLTS are effected ( at first glance ) in truth this effects everyone that groups with someone that has a LLTS as well.

    The changes to LLTS are NOT going to solve that, ESPECIALLY with the up coming changes of init effecting recharges speed on weapons. MEANING this will not have as big an impact on leveling as the dev team thinks so expect another nerf to all damage soon.

    If anything the chage to the way init effects weapon recharge will put more people doing better damage WITHOUT A LLTS. MEANING - average group damage will GO UP, hence why we should expect another nerf to damage soon.

    The developers of this game often fail to have any idea how the rules the set actually effect game play, hire me for petes sake, i see interactions well and am honest enought not to only root for my choosed profession. *coughfixercough*

    The list of the interactions the development team has failed to see is far to long for me to list here, but ever single nerf given has been direct result of that, making changes to items with other changes planed to change the combat system is NOT smart, especially with the planned changes will ALREADY effect the item they are thinking about nerfing. ( IE if recharge speed is effected by init and a players is taking a -800 init from a scope they WON'T be recharging as fast with one on ).

    Let's take yet another look at this: in order to use high end scope there is a hefty investment in the skills to use a scope.

    *****I have an alternate suggestion all togather, add the req's of the VE to the OLD LLTS of similiar ql and leave it at that, invested IP to do more damage, THAT is fair.******

    The track record to date:

    1) Dev says: players are over equiping:

    what occured - mob difficulty was increased

    result - players getting killed in missions more, leveling slower ESPECIALLY those that wheren't over equiped to start, MORE people start over equiping in an attempt to just make it through missions.

    2) Dev says: players are still over equping ( as they now have to not to get smacked around like rag dolls ):

    what occured - OE coding added to game. MOBS NOT CHANGED

    result -hunting without a MA in team becomes a VERY bad idea, as the additional damage from crit buffs is needed to dispatch mobs. ( a LOT of ma's get started around this time as the ma luv'n patch finally happens ).

    3) Dev says: players are "doing to much damage":

    what occured- MA cirt buffs are made self only, new line of greatly reduced effectiness is introduced that is usable on others, agents are given self only crit buffs, and ones useable on others, crit buffs speeches introduced for crats ( VERY little benefit ) max effective non- agent non-MA crit buff % is lowered from 24% to +14% ( roughly i'm not looking this stuff up atm not sure on max % crit from crats but i think it's 2% ), max crit for agents and MA's now exceeds previous possible.

    NOTE this is ONLY If the team is running buffs from all 3 porfessions.

    result- the breaks are throw on leveling players are extremely dissatisified with the lack of visible progress in leveling.

    4) Dev says: players aren't happy with the lack of leveling:

    What occured - team mission are implemented ( finally ) and people start leveling again, mission exp awards for completion beind awarded to the entire team adds greatly to the draw to do team missions.

    Result- players are leveling pretty rapidly again.

    5) Dev says: players are doing too much damage, already nerfed crit buffs.. what else can we nerf?

    what occured - LLTS is removed from drop tables, in the patch message we are told to treasure them as that's it their won't be more. reduced version of the LLTS *using completely different abilities to equip* with about 50% of the old LLTS max +% to crit is made and put in game, HOWEVER aquiring these highest end ones requires running ql 250 missions ( very dangerious mission reguardless of level of the team or make up ).

    Result - LLTS values skyrocket, over night these items become THE most valueable items in AO. As per the patch message they are kept, they are cherished, and they are still in use.

    6) Dev says: players are leveling too quickly in team missions. we should add unique spawns in really dangerious spots where exp looks really good until the boss spawns and kills everyone. IE increase mob tuffness( again ).

    What occurs - dyna camps are instituted with ramdom spawn boss mobs that can and WILL wipe out just about everyone actually hunting for exp in the area if aggro'ed.

    result - only the heaviest hitting ( largest ) factions even have a chance at these mobs as the man power and level of cordination to take them down precludes all but the best and highest level players. Never the less that is what happens, even though the bosses are adjusted to insane hit point levels, hit incredibly hard, are in some cases given PETS, and are in fact VERY difficult to land anything BUT a crit on ( mostly the players are hittting air ).

    7) Dev says: players are doing too much damage: aka our boss mob got killed!!!

    What occurs - dev decides to nerf the LLTS still in game, the last bastion of MANY players hopes for doing GOOD damage.

    Results - yet to be determined.

    Do you see the cycle?

    Players get smart and development team nerfs us, the issue isn't damage, the issue isn't pvm, the issue isn't pvp, the issue is that every time players level at a rate the dev team doesn't anticipate OR do things the dev team seems to put in game not as challenges, but as obstcales we are to never over come, WE get nerfed.

    The intent is pretty clear: kill the players as often as possible, allow them to gain a min of exp in the mean time.


    Do us a favor and have the dev team stick to bugs, new content and stay the heck away from "balance" issues, they suck at trying to figure them out, as their track record has show time and time again IMO.

    excelent post - AMEN
    Evilmery, Doctor & family =)

    Eternal Fury Forums & Guild Store

  9. #249

    For the minority?

    Originally posted by Charles
    Giving everyone extra IPR points for a minority's benefit is a bit of an overkill isn't it?
    Of course we are nerfing the scopes because there are a minority of people out there with them doing too much in critical hit damage.

    FunCom is the one telling us that we are going to nerf these scopes because of the minority who hold one. And they are IP hogs to use, as has been pointed out my many (including my roommate vocaly and repeatedly) your expenditure of IP is very much guided by what your scope needs and in her case alot of those are dark blue skills. If they took away 1hb weapons and made all enforcers go to 2hb or edged should they offer IRP points? This is about as rough on those that have LLTS scopes.

    I don't think IRP points is an unreasonable request. I think it is a neccesity.

  10. #250
    Well, if the crit has to go here's my suggestion for a nice mod:

    When you right-click the scope you automatically cancel your account and get a refund for, let's say, the last 3 months.
    Don Jinxster Juan - Solitus Trader - Omni RK1

    Nolan Necrogar Danczak - Opifex Martial Artist - Omni RK1

    // TODO: Put some funny line here

  11. #251

    melee init

    I know those scopes are designed to fit on ranged weapons.. but since they work on everything... If u decide to give a boost to ranged init on it, be sure to add melee/phys init as well

    and for people who think this is stupid, how stupid is that a scope (that is used to hit things better farther away and more vulnerable spots) should work when a thug is up and close to u, slicing u up with a sword or two?

    In my mind those scopes (since u put them in your hud) would be some kind of glasses that fits over (or is connected to) your eyes. that again is connected to your nervous system to make you react faster (if a bonus to init is added). the added crit bonuses would come from that the "scope" gives u better visuals/helps u pinpoint weak areas/even helps u guide your rifle in the right posisition or your sword in the right arc..

    I know this is a bit of subject, but since I have no idea what would balance the loss of crits, I just wanted to say my opinion:

    "When you implement the changes, make the scopes equally good for both melee and ranged!!"
    Sthorm, lvl 84 enforcer

  12. #252

    Lightbulb For those of you that want to exclude melees from scope, a thought.

    Several ranged users have said that the scope should stay but melees should be excluded from it ( not all of you by any means some of you are smart enough to realize what this means in the long term ).

    To those of you with this opinion i want to know why you feel you are entitled to MA level crits when you aren't MA's, or even agents for that matter.

    Let's take a look at this: MA's with this nerf will have a max crit of:
    UVC ( 24%) + TTS ( +4% ) + cali's cat ( other ) ( +1% ) crat crit speak (+2?) = +31% no llts included as ya dont' think ma's deserve it.

    and every one else ( not agents who can go to 100% or adv because the extra +1% they can get means about nothin' ):

    LLTS / VE (+8 ) + MoP ( +7% ) + TTS ( +4 % ) + Cali's cat ( other ) ( +1 ) + crat speach ( +2 ) = 22%

    Why in the name of heaven do you feel should be able to crit like an MA ( self buffed ) while ma's crit a whooping 9% more then you do?

    Honestly for those that feel they should i have an alternate suggestion: let's just pull all buffs that allow others to get % crit, AND all items that have +% crit.

    I can't heal like a doc, I don't evade like a GA fixer, I don't have a pet, I can't root, I can't DoT, I can't HoT, I don't have massive hit points, I don't have a alpha strike, I don't even have ranged attacks ( unless i choose to go with a bow ), I can't grid out if I get in trouble, I can't charm. What can i do? Crit, that's the defining ability of MA's and more recently Agents.

    So if we aren't allowed to keep our edge, why should any one else be?

    Keep making statements about MA, Agents, Fixers, etc and how uber they are in their BEST areas in the game ( what the professions are designed to good at... their strengths ) and eventually we all end up solitus adventures... only with no heals... because those got nerfed too.

    The profession are different, if you don't like yours, first see if it fits your play style before you go off on how others should be nerfed, you many find you've been playing the wrong profession all along and enjoy something else more.

    You may also find you had a lot illusions about how that other "uber" profession plays.
    Last edited by Cheetra; Oct 4th, 2002 at 16:54:45.

  13. #253

    Re: A thought

    Originally posted by Jica
    Since i.e. UVC+scope seems to be adding "too much" crits to the MA class (at least compared to other classes, and in some ranged weapon combinations), maybe it would be an idea to make SG, VS, LMA and UVC only work with hand-to-hand combat and melee weapons and not with ranged, since that is the real purpose of the martial artist?

    Just a thought :]


    Though I really would prefer nothing to get nerfed at all, it seems like it's coming no matter what the customers think about it.

    Since the real problem is that we jsut chew our way trough missions and mobs like a hot knife in butter, maybe you should take a look at how many higher end players who actually do missions above ql199/200 for xp. Mobs are to ohard to kill already. Can take minutes, so we go for lower ones which are weaker and we kill them faster and with less risk. Just a question of doing this fast enough

    EDIT 2:

    Just want to say that I never played a melee profession or MA character (other than twink levels), so I don't know much about the profession itself as a player :]
    I would rather see UVC not stack with the old style scope than to see UVC made Melee only...

    Just my two credits..
    Omni-Tek Master Assassin
    Omni-Tek NT (Testlive)

  14. #254

    Thumbs up A'YEP

    Originally posted by Jinx
    Well, if the crit has to go here's my suggestion for a nice mod:

    When you right-click the scope you automatically cancel your account and get a refund for, let's say, the last 3 months.


    already canceled once, because of nerfage like this, let the account run out completely came back before the characters got wiped because I thought FC had changed it's attitude.

    The resposnse to this will really tell all of us if the cycle of dev trying to beat the players is still prevelant at FC.

    Here's a hint:

    In real life we have to deal with people making decision that effect us in a negative way every day, most of us play these games to feel empowered, to have a good time, and to play our "super" selves. When the company admin'ing the game reminds us about those things that effect us negatively that we have no control over, it's just not fun any more.

    You simply can not simultaniously up mob dificulty and nerf players ability to take or do damage, reguardless of the group effecteds size. All is shows is that the devlopment teams wants to "beat" the players. And that is a always going to end up with us ( the players - the customers ) on the loosing end of this little game.
    Last edited by Cheetra; Oct 4th, 2002 at 17:06:24.

  15. #255

    Re: Re: A thought

    Originally posted by Othgar

    I would rather see UVC not stack with the old style scope than to see UVC made Melee only...

    Just my two credits..
    I'd rather see all crit buffs that aren't self only removed from game then either. MA's defining ability is to crit, so i see no reason why they should have that ability handed out to ever other professoin BUT themselves. Let's really even the playing field if it comes to that, NO +crit items for any one, NO +crit buffs that aren't self only.

    That should be fair in the estimation of those that want -level- the playing field between range and melee users.

    One ranged class that can crit better: Agents

    One melee class that can crit better: MA's

    There... level playing field... that make every one happy?

    No? wonder why not....

    you can't have something for nothing... and you can't have the MA crit advantage if they can't, not at all fair.
    Last edited by Cheetra; Oct 4th, 2002 at 17:20:25.

  16. #256
    Plain and simple: If funcom goes though with this nerf they should make a complete IP reset available again for a period of time. This way there is no haggling with the amount of IPR point FC should reimburse players. Folks should not have to use any IPR points due to an item change.

    Also another suggestion as to what to do with these:

    Make it a trade skill item that can combined with ranged weapons. This crit chance is then built into the weapon, also it could possibly affect recharge, min/max damage and possible add some interesting MODS. Once combined with a weapon they cannot be removed. This way it still retains value, adds a new weapon tradeskill, (for the engies!) This way they no longer are effective for Melee users. For example:

    Premium Nova Flow - Mk IV
    QL: 200

    BurstRecharge: 2578
    AttackRange: 20m
    EquipTime: 0.5s
    AttackTime: 1.5s
    RechargeTime: 2.5s
    ClipSize: 20 -- Energy Ammo
    Damage: 1-362 (500) -- EnergyAC

    Augmented Premium Nova Flow - Mk IV
    QL: 200

    BurstRecharge: 2000
    AttackRange: 30m
    EquipTime: 0.5s
    AttackTime: 1.5s
    RechargeTime: 2.25s
    ClipSize: 50 -- Energy Ammo
    Damage: 3-400 (500) -- EnergyAC

    Modify Critchance 8

    Other MODS would be interesting...any suggestions?

    I dunno, might not be great idea, but its and idea.
    Gonzorage 220/27/70 Keeper - Circle of Notum
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    Myham 219/26 Engie

    "It never got weird enough for me"
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  17. #257

    What this has done for me.

    As stated in a previous post, I do not use the LLTS.
    Despite the fact I have been offered a 10% LLTS from my roommate.

    I am affected as many of my friends, guildmates and my roommate all use the LLTS. I have been subjected to masive amounts of information that I did not need to hear or want to know about % to crit chances and the weapons chosen with a LLTS as opposed to without a LLTS. I did not use one because it REALLY DOES have draw really I am serious, it is not the be-all end-all and not the only way to have good damage. However the people who are upset have commited their exp to the LLTS being the way they deal the most damage.

    So today, I had computer time, this usually means that I hop on AO see if I can russel up a team and go do some missions.

    Instead I checked the websights for Horizon's and CoH (City of Heros) to see if there was any up and coming news about how to register for beta testing or if they had moved up their release date, see these are the two I am really waiting for, and spending yet more time listening to how upset people are seemed unprofitable.

    I do not use a LLTS but this is such a major pice of equipment for so many people it is making the game unpleasant for me to even be discussing this nerf, when/if it actually goes into affect, I expect this game to be worse.

    CZ, the developers are affecting the enjoyment and playability of AO right now for someone who does not even use the scope. When (or if please let there be a God and let this not go thruough) this occurs MY gameplay, someone who does not have one of these ubber expensive items, is going to be yet more affected.

    Wouldn't you rather I was playing right now rather than whining on the boards? So would I but instead I have called a freind and am going out to eat....because the game is not fun right now. The reason to play a MMORPG over a stand alone is the people who play with you, and right now enough of the people I play with are upset, that I might as well reload Road Rash on my machine and play something that will be fun.

  18. #258
    Again, thank you all for feedback, and keeping it (mostly) calm.

    The thread is getting long, so I'll start a new one with a late-week update on the issue, and leave you to discuss in that one till I get back on Monday. (Might drop by during the weekend, but can't promise it.)

    Anyhow, move to the new thread, please.

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