Friday with(out) Means - Aug. 7th, 2009: how did this get here i am not good with com

[AbcFryfan]

you didnt say where the night club is gonna be?!! if it is omni, call it OT Orgy lol
if it is neut, call it The Neut Boot haha
l love clans, so call it Phear Meh

[Regidoc]

you didnt say where the night club is gonna be?!! if it is omni, call it OT Orgy lol
if it is neut, call it The Neut Boot haha
l love clans, so call it Phear Meh

the nightclub is going to be in space

[CitizenOfRubiKa]

ENTRY FOR NIGHTCLUB NAME CONTEST: Willimays

[SSK]

ENTRY FOR NIGHTCLUB NAME CONTEST: Lost in space

[Ornaola]

ENTRY FOR NIGHTCLUB NAME CONTEST: Papaya

[vadagget]

This is one of those things that I really can't stress enough when talking to people about design - Player vs. player content is the only thing that will keep an online game running successfully. As I tend to put it, it's what gives a game legs - You can make an awesome online game, but if there's a terminal zero point where the player has nothing left to challenge them or to accomplish... there's no need to keep playing.

Disagree.

I've been playing since 2004, as have my senior org members, and we do no more PvP than is absolutely necessary - and we are still here. Having had a char get to 220 and do virtually all the PvM content available is only the beginning. We log in, socialize, work on alts, assist new members; and do much the same with the larger community. It is Player-interacting-with-Player content that keeps a game going but by no means does that mean PvP. If the vision of the Devs going forward is that they must focus on advancing and refining the PvP aspects of the game, then AO is headed towards a dismal, single dimensional status. We certainly don't want the game to start looking like Guild Wars, do we?

p.s. both the Second Life and Hello Kitty MMOs have no PvP and more subscribers than AO.

[Ayria]

p.s. both the Second Life and Hello Kitty MMOs have no PvP and more subscribers than AO.

Well to be fair Second Life has a lot of pr0n too.

[Tiralee]

I've been playing since 2004, as have my senior org members, and we do no more PvP than is absolutely necessary - and we are still here. Having had a char get to 220 and do virtually all the PvM content available is only the beginning. We log in, socialize, work on alts, assist new members; and do much the same with the larger community. It is Player-interacting-with-Player content that keeps a game going but by no means does that mean PvP. If the vision of the Devs going forward is that they must focus on advancing and refining the PvP aspects of the game, then AO is headed towards a dismal, single dimensional status. We certainly don't want the game to start looking like Guild Wars, do we?

I totally agree. AO attracts many different kinds of players. It needs to stay that way.

[heruharoth]

p.s. (...) Hello Kitty MMO has (...) more subscribers than AO.

That was harsh

[omegahealer]

wrote here clear nonsense ><

[shadowgod]

That was harsh

to be fair, i'm sure Hello Kitty actually has an advertising budget. and a sales department larger than the whole ao dev team.

[PhoenixOfAges]

Disagree.

I've been playing since 2004, as have my senior org members, and we do no more PvP than is absolutely necessary - and we are still here.

Right, people still play because they find the game and what it offers interesting. Although look at the activity at current PvP content, those already have numbers problems. So if you keep adding more alternative PvP content it will just get worse.

PvP was there but just as a something you can do if you want to sort of thing and that worked out fine. Then along comes LE and the continual increase of VP at BSs and just look at all the squabbling that caused. If you try changing the focus of the game towards PvP in the hopes to attract players that may not come you're quite likely going to loose many current players at the same time. You really need to talk to all players to find out what they think and want, not just those on the forums.

[Solidstriker]

to be fair, i'm sure Hello Kitty actually has an advertising budget. and a sales department larger than the whole ao dev team.

And the proper brain washing materials embedded into their treats.

[Worldofalts]

Exactly. There are a number of aspects to the game, things to do and different things will appeal to different people. Not everyone at lvl X plays for the same reason as everyone else either.

In the initial post Kintaii asked people to participate on the forums more. Although as I said earlier in the thread as that was put on the forums where only the interested forum goers will see it that will not provide much in the way of results. Then as Fatarapida said in response the behaviour of some of those forum PvPers put some off from participating. So what we can get is a loud minority among the forum posters minority (active forum posters in relation to players) barking requests and changes to FC. If FC moves the game in response to their wishes we'd get more things like BSs which were added to provide something for PvPers to do but as they are a minority among AO players most BSs don't run so the content falls apart.

If FC wants to have things appeal to the players then need to get in touch with the players to find out what they think and what they want. Surveys conducted on the launcher when you log into an account could help in that regards. Looking only to the forums will get you more of the same from the same people so you need to look elsewhere to get a larger response pool. Also getting info from fr00bs would help as they are suppose to be future hopeful subscribers, the forums exclude them completely.

Bump! Definitely worth considering.

[Kintaii]

It's, like, 3:30am and I'm still checking the forums. What is wrong with me?

I'm really glad to see a lot of people talking about the importance of and differences between PvP and PvM content from so many varied standpoints - Some really interesting discussions going on, some really cool thoughts and arguments from the various views coming into play. I'm one of those guys who gets really into the philosophies behind design principals - Figuring out what the definition of "fun" is and so on. So it's cool to see you guys talking about the individual ways you all enjoy the game - Seeing so many differences of opinion is always a good thing from a designer standpoint, as it shows the necessity for a diverse array of content.

Part of the debate is based around my post a few pages back, talking about "PvP content" being vital to a game's success. I wanna apologize here, because I have this slight issue where sometimes my point can get lost in my rant and I get the feeling that may have happened here. :P Ebondevil actually summed it up really well a bit later:

Depends on how you read Kintaii's statement really, the way I basically read it was that the only thing that keeps a game running in the long term is the way that players interact with other players in the game, not how players interact with mobs or generated content.

So I'm gonna revise my statement slightly - PvP is an easy term to use, and I think in a more grandiose and over-arching scale it still fits in the realm of what I'm trying to express. But, perhaps "Player on Player content" might be a better description - Content of the game that doesn't particularly rely around the actual gameplay that's been designed by the creators, but instead the *tools* that the developers give the playerbase to explore the more "massively multiplayer" aspects of the game. That's really what makes the genre unique, after all - The other people.

There's a lot on this subject that I could write about, but I do kinda want to get to sleep some time before the sun comes up (which, seeing as it's August and I'm in Norway, won't be long from now). But, for those of you interested in talking and discussing design... well, let's just say that I'm hoping to continue this sort of debate down the road.

One more before I hit the sack:

If FC wants to have things appeal to the players then need to get in touch with the players to find out what they think and what they want. Surveys conducted on the launcher when you log into an account could help in that regards. Looking only to the forums will get you more of the same from the same people so you need to look elsewhere to get a larger response pool. Also getting info from fr00bs would help as they are suppose to be future hopeful subscribers, the forums exclude them completely.

I agree with you on this completely, and would personally love to be able to conduct more surveys directed toward the playerbase. However, surveys don't always have the capability to cover everything, nor do they allow people an opportunity to find a platform where they can more actively discuss their concerns and questions. They're a great tool, don't get me wrong - They just don't always cover all the bases.

In the initial post Kintaii asked people to participate on the forums more. Although as I said earlier in the thread as that was put on the forums where only the interested forum goers will see it that will not provide much in the way of results.

Friday with Means (or without, in this case) tends to reach a slightly larger audience than just the regular forums checkers. It's posted to the front page (or at least it is these days), and also often reposted on sites such as AO Universe and occasionally even MMORPG.com. When you say that looking to the forums will get more of the same from the same people you're absolutely correct - Hence why I would love to see more people becoming involved; to bring more perspectives to the table, to help liven up the debates a little.

While we make our decisions based around what we, as the development team, feel is best for the game, we also realize that without players to play our game... we're kinda screwed. We wanna make sure you guys feel like you're being taken care of the best that we can (which sometimes may feel a little like receiving surgery in a back-alley clinic named "Dr. Rusty's Discount Amputations", but we honestly do try). The forums is a great way to not only interact with the community but also to gain valuable feedback, as well as get some great design inspiration - There've been more than a few things I've done for the game that had their initial roots spawned by players here in the forums. So bringing in new voices is never, ever a bad thing - The more of our community we can talk with, interact with - heck, *learn* from - the better. =)

[rustinel]

It's, like, 3:30am and I'm still checking the forums. What is wrong with me?

I'm really glad to see a lot of people talking about the importance of and differences between PvP and PvM content from so many varied standpoints - Some really interesting discussions going on, some really cool thoughts and arguments from the various views coming into play. I'm one of those guys who gets really into the philosophies behind design principals - Figuring out what the definition of "fun" is and so on. So it's cool to see you guys talking about the individual ways you all enjoy the game - Seeing so many differences of opinion is always a good thing from a designer standpoint, as it shows the necessity for a diverse array of content.

Part of the debate is based around my post a few pages back, talking about "PvP content" being vital to a game's success. I wanna apologize here, because I have this slight issue where sometimes my point can get lost in my rant and I get the feeling that may have happened here. :P Ebondevil actually summed it up really well a bit later:



So I'm gonna revise my statement slightly - PvP is an easy term to use, and I think in a more grandiose and over-arching scale it still fits in the realm of what I'm trying to express. But, perhaps "Player on Player content" might be a better description - Content of the game that doesn't particularly rely around the actual gameplay that's been designed by the creators, but instead the *tools* that the developers give the playerbase to explore the more "massively multiplayer" aspects of the game. That's really what makes the genre unique, after all - The other people.

There's a lot on this subject that I could write about, but I do kinda want to get to sleep some time before the sun comes up (which, seeing as it's August and I'm in Norway, won't be long from now). But, for those of you interested in talking and discussing design... well, let's just say that I'm hoping to continue this sort of debate down the road.

One more before I hit the sack:



I agree with you on this completely, and would personally love to be able to conduct more surveys directed toward the playerbase. However, surveys don't always have the capability to cover everything, nor do they allow people an opportunity to find a platform where they can more actively discuss their concerns and questions. They're a great tool, don't get me wrong - They just don't always cover all the bases.



Friday with Means (or without, in this case) tends to reach a slightly larger audience than just the regular forums checkers. It's posted to the front page (or at least it is these days), and also often reposted on sites such as AO Universe and occasionally even MMORPG.com. When you say that looking to the forums will get more of the same from the same people you're absolutely correct - Hence why I would love to see more people becoming involved; to bring more perspectives to the table, to help liven up the debates a little.

While we make our decisions based around what we, as the development team, feel is best for the game, we also realize that without players to play our game... we're kinda screwed. We wanna make sure you guys feel like you're being taken care of the best that we can (which sometimes may feel a little like receiving surgery in a back-alley clinic named "Dr. Rusty's Discount Amputations", but we honestly do try). The forums is a great way to not only interact with the community but also to gain valuable feedback, as well as get some great design inspiration - There've been more than a few things I've done for the game that had their initial roots spawned by players here in the forums. So bringing in new voices is never, ever a bad thing - The more of our community we can talk with, interact with - heck, *learn* from - the better. =)

You had me till you said 'Heck'

More seriously though you already posted earlier that you saw PVP as pvp interaction as much as combat. Most reasonable folk saw that I think.

And yes, nerf the forum checking compulsion.

[PhoenixOfAges]

I agree with you on this completely, and would personally love to be able to conduct more surveys directed toward the playerbase. However, surveys don't always have the capability to cover everything, nor do they allow people an opportunity to find a platform where they can more actively discuss their concerns and questions. They're a great tool, don't get me wrong - They just don't always cover all the bases.

Surveys aren't perfect but they're the easiest and fastest way to get specific answers from a lot of people for both you and those you're trying to get answers from. How well they work out depends a lot on the questions and possible answers provided. For some more involved issues questions can be made as multi-part questions, if you answered A here's a new question, if it was B here's a different one, etc... That and/or you use the info from one survey to decide on new questions in the next.

With written responses in a public forum people need to find a way to get what they're thinking written out so it's properly understood. As you saw yourself that doesn't always go as planed. Then you need people to look over all the responses, bickering and what not, understand it and organize it in a useful way. There also is as another pointed out the problem of forum PvP by some of the louder and often regular posters and how it turns people off from trying to participate. In surveys there is no such worry of being heckled for voicing your thoughts.

When you say that looking to the forums will get more of the same from the same people you're absolutely correct - Hence why I would love to see more people becoming involved; to bring more perspectives to the table, to help liven up the debates a little.

Could always mention it in the launcher as you'd done when trying to get more ARKs in the past. Before we would often see one note before logging into our account and another when we did and are to pick the char to log in. Could use that more again rather than one longer note put in both locations.

The log-in note, that is the typical "welcome to Anarchy Online" one we see when we log a char into the game would be another place. It at times had been used to point out important issues/problems but seems to have been rather underused as of late.

[Perseus]

I'm really glad to see a lot of people talking about the importance of and differences between PvP and PvM content from so many varied standpoints - Some really interesting discussions going on, some really cool thoughts and arguments from the various views coming into play. I'm one of those guys who gets really into the philosophies behind design principals - Figuring out what the definition of "fun" is and so on. So it's cool to see you guys talking about the individual ways you all enjoy the game - Seeing so many differences of opinion is always a good thing from a designer standpoint, as it shows the necessity for a diverse array of content.

My perspective then - pretty much the same as some of the other PvMer's. I go to BS for the bare minimum time to get the items that I need. Don't care for PvP combat at all. I am keen to help out my org mates and build my alts. Which means grinding all the stuff I have ground before, again. Inferno missions, yay. Research, yay. 2,500 tokens, yay - bring token rewards to 200+ missions please. DB, yay, more fun. Xan, yay fun. Arid Rift then 3 weeks on LFT looking for Nerevta teams. Big yay. It almost seems like you don't want people to make alts.

And as for the talk of making everyone useful in a team .......... half the people on LFT can't even find the place they want to get to. Then the enfo heads off to take a 20 minute bio, 15 minutes into which the doc decides they need to go afk for .... insert something here ..... then the soldier needs to go to the shop etc etc.

Don't get me wrong - I am always keen to help out an org mate. But as long as they help themselves and don't waste my time in the process. Its about respect - I don't waste their time, so they don't waste mine. So yeah, I like solo play more than teams. I like the sound of the new 150 instance - more of these please. Endgame gear available for people who do some work that only they can do. Great idea - there is a ton of team oriented stuff out there. Bring on 2 man instances.

Please don't make the game any more of a popularity contest than it already is.

[erozc]

I agree with you on this completely, and would personally love to be able to conduct more surveys directed toward the playerbase. However, surveys don't always have the capability to cover everything, nor do they allow people an opportunity to find a platform where they can more actively discuss their concerns and questions. They're a great tool, don't get me wrong - They just don't always cover all the bases.

Very true on surveys. However, another issue is that people don't always (often?) know what's best for them. As game designers, it is your job to come up with things that make the game more enjoyable for the players. Surveys can be used as a decision making tool but the data collected should be taken with a grain, or a few healthy sacks, of salt.

An example would be the poll on the future of RK3 that was conducted some time ago. As I recall the result was the majority doesn't want a server merge, but whether a merge should be conducted or not is up to you guys.

Another, more extreme example, would be a survey on whether AS mechanics should be changed. You guys should know best.

Finally, I really like the fact that we're able to communicate and get feedback on these forums about suggestions, changes, the reasoning behind things and so forth. Keep up the good work

[kenbutsu]

It's, like, 3:30am and I'm still checking the forums. What is wrong with me?
...

There's a lot on this subject that I could write about, but I do kinda want to get to sleep some time before the sun comes up (which, seeing as it's August and I'm in Norway, won't be long from now). But, for those of you interested in talking and discussing design... well, let's just say that I'm hoping to continue this sort of debate down the road.

...

imo sleep is good especially since this has turned out to be a good wwk (week with kintaii) in lieu of a FWM

p.s. is it friday yet?