Nerfing LLTS - Improvement suggestions only

[___________Firedrake]

Actually there's now a thread where the devs give what reasons they claimed justify this godawful nerf. The only problem is that neither reason stands up to any kind of rational examination.

They say that some folks are critting too much against mobs (guess those Real Means filed a complaint), which doesn't hold up at all if one considers MA's ( and if any devs read this (yeah, right) NO, do NOT even think about nerfing MA's!). The other reason is that "It's very unbalancing in PvP to have a locked-supply scope which gives large benefits compared to the alternative. " which makes no sense when one considers that this is because the <expletive deleted> devs locked the supply in the first place! I truly cannot for the life of me figure out what in Hades is going on through the alleged minds of the devs.

As far as suggestions as to what to give in a lame attempt to soften the pain of this travesty, if you can't get a free month of AO for every % point nerfed to the folks being scr-...er, getting their scopes nerfed, then I'd go for the following:

% exp for each point of crit nerfed or a way to get their creds back

a total IPR so these poor slobs can reclaim their chars a bit

a complimentary dart board with a devs face on it

[Canto]

1) Cap crits at 15-20% no matter what items or spells one is wearing. Crits should be subject to extreme diminishing returns, not linear as they are now, LOL linear crits.

2) Link crit resistance to armor class as well as evades as it should realistically be.

3) Return damage to 100% in PvP

4) Doing 1-3 obviate the need to do anything to LLTS

Doing the above would be fair for all right?? no one profession or thing is nerfed and the damage is returned to 100% in pvp...unless you think MAs somehow should have a monopoly on crits.

[luxferro]

Originally posted by Suzsu
1) Cap crits at 15-20% no matter what items or spells one is wearing. Crits should be subject to extreme diminishing returns, not linear as they are now, LOL linear crits.

2) Link crit resistance to armor class as well as evades as it should realistically be.

3) Return damage to 100% in PvP

4) Doing 1-3 obviate the need to do anything to LLTS

Doing the above would be fair for all right?? no one profession or thing is nerfed and the damage is returned to 100% in pvp...unless you think MAs somehow should have a monopoly on crits.

while they are doing all that. they should make it so that crit is also dependant on your position with respect to the mob (or other player). for example, if my gun has a range of 30, and i am at the limit of 30, my accuaracy shouldn't be as good if say i was only 10 away..

adding this element to the game would make fighting more challenging.. (the above should also apply to normal damage too). the more within your weapon range, then more accurate you should be. this would give a double bonus to range extenders, and it would allow you to hit people from further away.. and give you more of a range to land more accurate hits.. be being within the range limit.

i know it;s proabably alot of code.. but it is something that game needs.. it needs more intelligence..AI... not just button pushing and wait for mob to die....make mobs run away when they get to 10% HP or something too.. make missions more challenging without giving mobs uber HP and more crits, or insane AC...

[Spluggorth]

Greetings folks!
ok lets try and make this "nerf" a good one. Since FC feels we are lvl to fast still.

anyways. if im correctly...the Dev team feels that peeps are landing critical hits to often both in pvm and pvp.


okies here we go...
lets take a high lvl ELLTS in consideration...say...14% critical hit.
first of all, Leave the Critical Nanos as they are..Mark for everyone , Ranged and melee. its Notum and Nanobots that guide your bullets aka close combat weapon to land a special hit.

Now then..Targeting scopes...should be what the name itself implies...a Targeting scope for Ranged weapons. Yes even an Martial Artist can use a Ranged weapon if they feel that its worth the ip. And by doing so they should also be able to use a Targeting scope, pretty simple logically isnt it?

Anyways...Now im gonna get flamed into next week i think...
Melee users.( yes im an Enf ) :

No scopes for melee users...i meen come on! who has ever heard of a beam, sword, hammer whatever! with a targeting scope on?
Not me! anyways..to compensate the loss for this to the melee users like Enfs, Advs that went melee..and MAs.( they allways come out on top dont they)...we have the "Flurry of Blows" that is a time related boost,. It adds to speed and Critical increase if im not entierly misstaken. So...then here is my solution.

ELLTS in the future
Ranged only.
8 % crit for the high ql ones, but instead..a hefty bonus to Attackrating ( wich in some cases would meen a higher chance also to land a crit without the 8% taken in consideration since weapon AR is higher vs possible Evades)
say like possible...100 to AR or so for the high ones and maybe 20 for the lowest.
Def bonuses: noway! why should looking throu a targeting scope give me bonus to my evades? rather the opposite in theory so lets leave Defbonus out of the depate shall we?¨
Range bonus. Certainly! it is a scope after all.
Aimed shot bonus: but ofcourse! Aimed is after all what you do with a scope.
Init Debuff: yes, everyone knows that aiming rather than making a hipshot takes longer time so yes!
Nano init bebuff.: NO! i cant see the reason for even looking throu the scope when executing a nano, HOWEVER, i must admit that im unaware if the Scopes Critincrease works on Damage Attack nanos...if it does..remove it!
REquired skills: WS and Perception: This is quite Logical.
WS to add it to the weapon, and perception to be "good" at using it. ( since perception is the only related "visual" skill.
Elec eng...hmm why? its not like i have alot of electrical gadgets on a shotgun.)

Well then lets sum this up to the following:
ELLTS:
X% crit increase
+ XXX AR
Ranged weapons only
+ XX Aimed shot
- XX Ranged init
Range INC + XX
HUD 3
Req skills: WS and Perception

now to the "new" scopes:
same as above, less crit chance and less AR bonus maybe?
that would meen the old ones still are pretty valuable no?

now to compensete the Melee users and also to balance the Ranged VS Melee:
only item i can think of is.. "flurry of Blows".
Make it first of all NOT unique! its hard to upgrade to another one
before you have the required skill if you cant even pick one up.
Then...have it work as a "scope", meaning its not "activated" like before but active at all times just like the LLTS. Add a crit increase
to it that equals the LLTS or VS scopes ( your choice ), Certainly a Melee Init debuff since targeting that special spot does take a while longer, IE holding attack for the right moment etc....and now why the melee users would like it even if it meens they loose their valuable ELLTS scopes... make it work even on specials! just like a scope works on AS and Fling, burst etc.
and yes even here add a hefty bonus to AR. well then, Since a Scope adds to Aimed shot., why shouldnt a Flurry of blows add to some melee related skill then? i can think of Sneak attack, fast attack, Brawl. NOT dimach since its more of a "spiritual" attack right.

Lets sum it up:
"flurry of Blows"
Melee ONLY
NON unique!
+ XX Critincrease
- XX Melee/phys Init
+ XXX AR
HUD 3
Required skill: um...fast attack as it is now..maybe something better can be thought about? Ideas?
Crit increase includes Brawl attack, and specials, maybe even Dimach. dunno about the last one.

So...lets end my long message where i have tried to be as construktive as possible...
We all know there are some peeps out there that uses both Ranged and Melee attacks...well.. Frankly since both of my Ideas here goes into the same slot... id say they would have to choose if they go for a scope or a Flurry.

NOW then... Can i have some Rewievs on this plz? Construktive ones if you please=) lets try and find a solution suitable for all ( hard to but..one can only try)

GAME ON !!

[Krabbus]

Whatever you do, please don't reduce the crit modifier on my 8% crit scope even more. I don't crit that much without external buffs.

I like that these scopes are based on tradeskills to equip, and not perception as the new ones. If you are going to reduce it, make the LLTS drop again as the new one - since the crit modifier is reduced anyway - or make a new scope that needs tradeskills instead of perception.

FC decided to make the LLTS not dropping anymore because of the critmodifier (was too good) and now you are going to reduce it but still make it as rare as it is today??? Where is the logic?

MAKE IT DROP AGAIN IF YOU ARE GOING TO NERF IT. I WANT 8% CRIT CHANCE.


Krabbus - MA Engineer

[Krabbus]

If you are going to nerf LLTS, please make it this way:

All scopes up to QL125 keeps the critmodifier (up to 8%), but no other modifiers to benefit the user. If the scope goes above 8% crit will it be reduced to 8% but adds some modifiers such as AS, AMS and inits to balance the crit loss...

[Zmmon(sus)]

was sitting and thinking about the (e)llts nerf. and how you can mod them without loosing the value. and MABY you should lower the critt to 8% and keep the inits, reqs etc.

But add a chance of getting a 10-15% critt buff that stack with ma critt and crat critt. So maby there should be a 15-20% chance that you gett this buff every shoot. And if you get this buff you get 18-23% chance of critting.

I have probally missed something when i was thinking of this, but maby this idea will make others able to come up with better ideas. And i think this solution will make the critt scope still valuable.

[______________Hayake]

This is more of a suggestion on what definitely should not be done.

Nerfing the crit scope should in no way affect the existing 'balance' between professions.

Afaik this was never mentioned as the reason for nerfing them so that should not be done.

IOW NO things like:
-1200 phys. int, melee init and +100 ranged init
-only usable for ranged weapons
-requirement: profession: non ma.

I gathered from everything funcom stated that they feel there is an imbalance between llts owners and people who don't have one.

At no point was there ever any mention that somehow they are magically unbalancing melee professions and that ranged professions should get a boost on crit chance vs melee professions.

BTW afaik nerfing all old scopes to 8% changes jack ***** to inter profession balance.
My MA will lose 7% chance to crit or on average 2.5K damage over 15 hits (1 crit less).
So will your ithica wearing whatever.

Please tell me why for some magic reason this is to my advantage? To me it seems we BOTH lose 2.5K damage.

Best suggestion (besides not nerfing them at all and/or making them drop again) I heard, is still making them completely useless sell for 1 million/ql in a shop and giving full ipr with them when this happens.

[______________Hayake]

Originally posted by Zardukar

Now then..Targeting scopes...should be what the name itself implies...a Targeting scope for Ranged weapons. Yes even an Martial Artist can use a Ranged weapon if they feel that its worth the ip. And by doing so they should also be able to use a Targeting scope, pretty simple logically isnt it?

No scopes for melee users...i meen come on! who has ever heard of a beam, sword, hammer whatever! with a targeting scope on?
Not me! anyways..to compensate the loss for this to the melee users like Enfs, Advs that went melee..and MAs.( they allways come out on top dont they)...we have the "Flurry of Blows" that is a time related boost,. It adds to speed and Critical increase if im not entierly misstaken. So...then here is my solution.
now to compensete the Melee users and also to balance the Ranged VS Melee:
only item i can think of is.. "flurry of Blows".
Make it first of all NOT unique! its hard to upgrade to another one
before you have the required skill if you cant even pick one up.
Then...have it work as a "scope", meaning its not "activated" like before but active at all times just like the LLTS. Add a crit increase
to it that equals the LLTS or VS scopes ( your choice ), Certainly a Melee Init debuff since targeting that special spot does take a while longer, IE holding attack for the right moment etc....and now why the melee users would like it even if it meens they loose their valuable ELLTS scopes... make it work even on specials! just like a scope works on AS and Fling, burst etc.
and yes even here add a hefty bonus to AR. well then, Since a Scope adds to Aimed shot., why shouldnt a Flurry of blows add to some melee related skill then? i can think of Sneak attack, fast attack, Brawl. NOT dimach since its more of a "spiritual" attack right.


NOW then... Can i have some Rewievs on this plz? Construktive ones if you please=) lets try and find a solution suitable for all ( hard to but..one can only try)

GAME ON !!

Although you make a worthy effort in trying to balance something:

a. a much simpler solution would be to change the name of the 'scopes', because that name and the name alone is why a lot of pple seem to think it should be ranged weapons only.

b. making flurry of blows the crit increasing item for melee professions is not the answer. It requires fast attack a skill an ma has absolutely no use for whatsoever. I do not know whether it is usefull to adventurers though.
If you could think of a skill that is equally usefull for ALL melee professions that might be a more viable solution.

[Zmmon(sus)]

Originally posted by Hayake

b. making flurry of blows the crit increasing item for melee professions is not the answer. It requires fast attack a skill an ma has absolutely no use for whatsoever. I do not know whether it is usefull to adventurers though.
If you could think of a skill that is equally usefull for ALL melee professions that might be a more viable solution.

hehe i cant understand why it should be a usefull skill for Flurry? i mean i dont think that soldiers for example think that WS and EE is very usefull. but they get what they want from it. Critt, same as flurry that uses fast attack.

[______________Hayake]

Fair point at first sight, but ws/ee is useless for every profession. Fast attack isn't.
Either use a skill that is otherwise useless for all professions or use one that is usefull for all melee profs

[Cheetra]

please take them to the correct post for it, i really don't feel like reposting everything twice the thread they should be on is:

http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...089#post730089

sorry got no idea that' will pull up as a clickable link or not, but that's the right thread for that discussion.

[odian102]

If the modification to the llts is in stone. then why not make the change fun and adds to the content of the game.

Heres the idea in a nutshell. Make the scopes personalized. What i mean is you can mod. it by using trade skills.

Example:
on 14.8: your llts is now 8% scope with a -350 range init with a number of modification points available to it. depending on what is was originally(not the ql lvl but based on the original critt %). For every crit % lost a modification point can be added.

- A 15% original llts has 7 modification slots on it.
a) you can acquire some of the modifcation trade skill devices in the store, while others are in chests, mob loot, boss loot.
b) A semi-rare tool can be added to the game that will allow you to remove the modifications to the scope.
c) the modification trade skill devices can come in different ql lvls.

-The lvl 250 Vision Enhancer would have 2 modification slots on it.
a) this will allow all players in the game to aquire one and have the ability to customize there scope. While increasing the overall trade skill line in the game.


Examples of modification devices the degree of modification is based on quality lvl)
+range init
+add def
+add off
+evades
+run speed
+map nav
+damage
+to reflection-several versions based on damage type
+range distance
+specials (general)
+multirange
+ a specific special ( aimshot, fling, FA, burst...)
...

Man, THIS WOULD BE FUN!!!!!!!!!!1
It adds to the content of the game. allows people to use trade skills. You can customize your scope to your needs. In my opinion, its a win win situation.

[Zmmon(sus)]

Originally posted by Hayake
Fair point at first sight, but ws/ee is useless for every profession. Fast attack isn't.
Either use a skill that is otherwise useless for all professions or use one that is usefull for all melee profs

hehe, i dont agree again, WS and EE actually is usefull, i use them. coz im a trader doing tradeskills. just as with fast attack for thoose who use it. :P

[Spluggorth]

i give up...seems my post was to long, noone seems to read it throu to the last letter..pity.

same benefits would go for both ranged and melee users ffs!
its only the ITEM that would differ!!
scopes for ranged and flurry for melee
as for the fast attack..oowww MAs no use for fast attack?!
well enfs dont have much use of it either with a hammer silly!
the only reason many put ips in it is for higher ql flurry!
and yes even today flurry has a crit increase that is hidden.
unless you didnt know.

gaahh calm down here...phew...
like i said in the post i didnt recommend fast attack as the requirement!! i said that it is fast attack today! nothing about that it should stay that way.. READ!

[Cheetra]

edited slightly

Originally posted by Odian102

Heres the idea in a nutshell. Make the scopes personalized. What i mean is you can mod. it by using trade skills.

Example:
on 14.8: your llts is now 8% scope with a -350 range init with a number of modification points available to it. depending on what is was originally(not the ql lvl but based on the original critt %). For every crit % lost a modification point can be added.

- A 15% original llts has 7 modification slots on it.
a) you can acquire some of the modifcation trade skill devices in the store, while others are in chests, mob loot, boss loot.
b) A semi-rare tool can be added to the game that will allow you to remove the modifications to the scope. ** the following edited in by Cheetra *the fixer implant stripper would be ideal for this * <- edited in by Cheetra **
c) the modification trade skill devices can come in different ql lvls.

-The lvl 250 Vision Enhancer would have 2 modification slots on it.
a) this will allow all players in the game to aquire one and have the ability to customize there scope. While increasing the overall trade skill line in the game.


Examples of modification devices the degree of modification is based on quality lvl)
+range init
+add def
+add off
+evades
+run speed
+map nav
+damage
+to reflection-several versions based on damage type
+range distance
+specials (general)
+multirange
+ a specific special ( aimshot, fling, FA, burst...)
...

Man, THIS WOULD BE FUN!!!!!!!!!!1
It adds to the content of the game. allows people to use trade skills. You can customize your scope to your needs. In my opinion, its a win win situation

This is the best idea i have seen by far, it would allow the device themselves to maintain a high value due to the level of customizability, i would in fact be excited about the change IF the suggestion i have to add to this below is also included with the above:

Allow the addition of 1 shinning 1 bright and 1 faded cluster of any type to the scope itself ( old school clusters not jobe's ). That alone would keep the value on this item very very high ( as it is now ) without potentially upsetting game balance as there are already buffs in game that can boost any skill by the amounts the cluster do.

One caution would be that adding anything to the scope should not change it's ql at all.

[______________Hayake]

Originally posted by Zardukar
i give up...seems my post was to long, noone seems to read it throu to the last letter..pity.

same benefits would go for both ranged and melee users ffs!
its only the ITEM that would differ!!
scopes for ranged and flurry for melee
as for the fast attack..oowww MAs no use for fast attack?!
well enfs dont have much use of it either with a hammer silly!
the only reason many put ips in it is for higher ql flurry!
and yes even today flurry has a crit increase that is hidden.
unless you didnt know.

gaahh calm down here...phew...
like i said in the post i didnt recommend fast attack as the requirement!! i said that it is fast attack today! nothing about that it should stay that way.. READ!

I was not flaming you I just see litlle use in making 2 different items that by all means will do exactly the same.

And yes, if necessary I will find a skill to reset some place to dump ip into fast attack if that is what would be required of me to maintain additional crit chance.

What I mostly meant is that your idea is not necessarily bad, just seems needlessly complicated to me. Just rename scopes to 'crit enhancing tool' and you get the exact same goal wo all the hassle.

[______________Hayake]

Cz, please keep this thread on topic and remove any post trying to get llts's even further nerfed for ma's or melee professions in general.

As the title of the thread says 'improvement suggestions only' any post that cries for a further nerf on them is inadmissable by its nature.

I thought the point of this thread was to think of ways to keep the llts keep their value.
Suggestions like
* -1200 melee init
* -1200 phys init
* profession: not ma
* ranged weapons only

can under no circumstances be seen as anything that would make llts keep their value after their crit bonus has been reduced.

There are a ton of melee users that have these scopes and paid a good amount of money for them as well.

Please, oficially state that FC is not considering any of the ideas such as mentioned above, there is no way a llts could even keep a fraction of its value for melee users if any of these 'improvement suggestions' get implemented, no matter what other bonusses they might have.

[Krabbus]

Originally posted by Hayake
Cz, please keep this thread on topic and remove any post trying to get llts's even further nerfed for ma's or melee professions in general.

As the title of the thread says 'improvement suggestions only' any post that cries for a further nerf on them is inadmissable by its nature.

I thought the point of this thread was to think of ways to keep the llts keep their value.
Suggestions like
* -1200 melee init
* -1200 phys init
* profession: not ma
* ranged weapons only

can under no circumstances be seen as anything that would make llts keep their value after their crit bonus has been reduced.

There are a ton of melee users that have these scopes and paid a good amount of money for them as well.

Please, oficially state that FC is not considering any of the ideas such as mentioned above, there is no way a llts could even keep a fraction of its value for melee users if any of these 'improvement suggestions' get implemented, no matter what other bonusses they might have.

I hope you know that this will destroy my MA ENGINEER ?????

edit: A stupid comment by me (everything looked negative to me at that time)

[odian102]

The code is already there. Funcom can modify the implant code.

they also already have the code for the bonus- "clustor implants"

This could work!

idea:
==========================================
If the modification to the llts is in stone. then why not make the change fun and adds to the content of the game.

Heres the idea in a nutshell. Make the scopes personalized. What i mean is you can mod. it by using trade skills.

Example:
on 14.8: your llts is now 8% scope with a -350 range init with a number of modification points available to it. depending on what is was originally(not the ql lvl but based on the original critt %). For every crit % lost a modification point can be added.

- A 15% original llts has 7 modification slots on it.
a) you can acquire some of the modifcation trade skill devices in the store, while others are in chests, mob loot, boss loot.
b) A semi-rare tool can be added to the game that will allow you to remove the modifications to the scope.
c) the modification trade skill devices can come in different ql lvls.

-The lvl 250 Vision Enhancer would have 2 modification slots on it.
a) this will allow all players in the game to aquire one and have the ability to customize there scope. While increasing the overall trade skill line in the game.


Examples of modification devices the degree of modification is based on quality lvl)
+range init
+add def
+add off
+evades
+run speed
+map nav
+damage
+to reflection-several versions based on damage type
+range distance
+specials (general)
+multirange
+ a specific special ( aimshot, fling, FA, burst...)
...

Man, THIS WOULD BE FUN!!!!!!!!!!1
It adds to the content of the game. allows people to use trade skills. You can customize your scope to your needs. In my opinion, its a win win situation.