Nerfing LLTS - Improvement suggestions only

[Bionitrous]

It's a Scope. It increases your vision. Start from there. Be realistic. It's a tool. It plugs into your eyes and brains. That's why it needed technical skills to equip.

Traders were considered Tradeskill people and weren't expected to turn out like they did in combat. Engineers go in the same mold. Ever wonder why 'their' weapons were low damage high crit?

So let's assume that the Nerf is going to be a straight reduction in Crit percentage. That's fair. The Vision Enhancers are fine I think so use that as a starting point. 8% Crit for top quality level item.

What can you expect from something that fine tunes the hell out of your eyeballs?

- Greater range
- Higher chance to hit (think of the Soldiers Automatic Targetting Nano)
- More damage
- Increase chance to Evade or Dodge, mebbe not Duck (Explosions supposed to be AoE)
- Small buffs to certain Tradeskills that might be dependant on vision (ever see what a Jeweller has on his eyes?)
- It will help you make an Aimed Shot
- It will increase your awareness of monsters in a greater range of vicinity
- It will give you an increased chance of detecting hidden players
- It might help you break open a chest or door lock
- It could potentially increase your Sense. (But not 'Sensory Improvement. That's a school of programming knowledge)

What WON'T it do?
- It won't make you hit faster
- It won't increase your experience
- It won't give you life or nano or skill with using a weapon
- It won't increase your NCU's chances of blocking a hostile Nanoformula
- It won't increase your skill in executing nano programs.

Just think of what you could do better if you had vision like Superman. Then you'll see what I think can be added to offset the Nerf of the Crit%.

Then again, I tend to like things that make 'sense'.

Now, what kind of skills would it take to wear one of these things? I'd go off the top of my head and say ... oh, Weaponsmithing, Electrical Engineering, perhaps Computer Literacy. In the real world, what skills would be required to equip and operate a highly technical apparatus that goes over your eyes and enhances vision by feeding optimized data to the visual center of your brain? Treatment, mebbe? Definately Electrical or Mechanical Engineering.

Perception as the requirement for the VE never made any sense to me. It's a tool. What, you need really good eyes to read the instruction booklet?

[Cz]

Thank you to everybody for posting suggestions here. I removed most other posts, but would like to thank most of those posters too, as they didn't turn this thread into a debate.

/me heads into the debate thread

[Ocura]

IF.. and only IF you really want to make a decision against the call of the majority of your customers ....


Add a good amount of nano resist
Add a relatively high HealDelta ( less crit = longer fight = better regen ? )
Add a fair amount to all evades

just my 2creds while still way too sleepy

[Shadelore]

I suggest you leave them as they are, except dont make them work for melee/fist attack, dont see any reason to make any other changes.

There are no unbalancing effects of the scope at all. The only reason for this nerf is the attempt to satiesfy the ppl who dont have them who selfisly and shortminded claims that what I dont have, noone else will have...

[Tjohei]

But nerf them would not do anything better. I can see that the new players also want them. So put them in game again would I have suggested. Could u please tell me why u need to nerf CZ?

- Why must we nerf the (E)LLTS?


From there it would be easier to suggest nerf, when we know the reason for this situation.

---------------------------
Aimabel Soldier RK-2

Was proud to be from the same country that developed AO, now I am not sure anymore.

[w4rma]

First Suggestion: In the patch that the LLTS gets changed everyone should be allowed a Full IP Reset handled in the same way that the Full IP Reset was handled in that recent patch. (14.0-14.2, maybe?)

Second Suggestion: The LLTS should be equal but different to the VE Scope. If you make the LLTS better just to make it better then you reduce the variety of items that folks use. Make them equal but different. Change something about the LLTS scope that will make it appeal to a different type of scope user other than the Ithaca/Raid user.

Third Suggestion: The LLTS with it's Trade Skill requirements seem to be a Tradery type weapon so it's new form might best be tended towards helping Traders with their shotties. But if you make it a more profession specific scope then perhaps add another scope that is meant more for the Soldiers and their assault rifles.

Fourth Suggestion: Screwdriver option for turning the night vision on and off because seeing the world in a shade of green all the time really bites and having to turn off a neat setting to have on also bites.

Fifth Suggestion: Let them drop again in the game as mission reward and/or boss loot.

[_____________Shiggee]

Bring it in line with VE, but let it use a different HUD so that both stack.

The point is that some people think the llts itself is overpowered. If its equal or about equal with the VE than its no longer overpowered and noone can cry a river anymore. When it stacks with VE it will still be possible to get the high crit modifier. It just needs 2 slots and some good perception buffs. It might help if a positive perception modifier will be added to the llts. Everything else just doesnt seem logical imho.

[Kinkstaah]

Uh. If they stack, they are exactly where we are now, which is why they are gettin nerfed.

(it had to be said)

[Voorg]

Nerf ellts (ql200) to same crit % as the VE (ql200) but remove all negative penalties.

Same crit as new scope but no init penalties. That makes it far more valuable to me. If people want extra few % a ql250 ve gives there is a penalty to pay in inits.

Is simple tweak, and a significant advantage to anyone using a 2.5/2.5 kinda weapon. Will hurt MAs bit more as they probably already 1/1, but eelts + uvc etc is a little ott imho.


I would like to see AO a less crit dependent game, try droppin HP of RMs and Aces and the like to about 50% of now maybe crits wouldnt be so important.


Voorg Lvl200 Soldier (I dont use an ellts!)
Kodu Lvl157 MA (all soldiers should make an MA, playing is like therapy)

[_____________Shiggee]

Originally posted by Mike "Kinkstaah" Bond
Uh. If they stack, they are exactly where we are now, which is why they are gettin nerfed.

(it had to be said)

Just noticed the reply from the designer so forget about my suggestion..

[Czarina]

Originally posted by Mike "Kinkstaah" Bond

I have seen +Damage mentioned a few times. This is good. But people have always said +10, +20, +40, or something like that. Thats simply not enough. +40 is +20 in pvp. Someone hitting me for 620 or 640 is not worth 250Million for the scope.

If you are going to add damage - It needs to be +200 *at least* (which is +100 in pvp)

+200.... hmmmmm

if you have all the best dmg adding items in the game you barely make it to +200....
+20 dmg buff
+60 robust backpack
+42 dragon armor
+40 new implants
+40 two damage rings

this makes +202 damage... so you want a scope that is the equivalent of every damage adding item in the game... that doesn't sound unbalancing??????????????

dragon armor seems to maintain its price pretty darn well with modest adds, +40 damage, and good AC...

I don't think it will take unbalancing levels of damage adds... add all offense... etc... etc... to make it maintain its value...

not to disagree with you kink, but given two users... one has the new VE and one has a LLS... exact same set up but scope has the new 8% crit and +200 damage... a fight that lasts 10 shots should on average end up with the old LLS user doing 1,000 xtra damage... now that sounds like an enormous advantage to me...

[Spluggorth]

melee users?
what melee users its a scope for pietes sake!
try using a sword with a targeting scope taped before one of your eyes...

pardon me for sayin this but....Even the description of the llts and Ellts i think sais it..this scope might not be so good for melee....

but then again the description part of nanos and items in this game is ......to say the least...WRONG!

naw...
some intressting ideas here, but plz FC note the peoples answers...they dont want to change it.

as you can see FC, there is somewhat 14% of the playerbase that are now MAs..thats alot more than any other proffesion, why you might wonder...well its simple..... Crits!
This game is all about landing high damage....ie Crits...
anyhow, my advice is just plain simple.. Nodrop and possibly unique, non Melee ( instead increase flurry output for melee users and make it non MA )

[iguanoid]

There are enough things that are broken in this game without removing one of the few useful items in the game. Scopes had stopped dropping by the time i realized i needed one, and after many months i managed to acquire various LLTS from 3 - 11 percent modifiers, for a predictably huge amount of credits. In many respects getting my hands on a scope that did over 10 percent crit modifier was a driving force for me to level.

Even when all other HUD devices check to perception, i still chose to stick to LLTS because i have green tradeskills....

Many people have suggested adding weapon range to the "about to be nerfed" LLTS. Why? you already have a range modifier which checks to perception, so if you chose to go down the VE road, you will benefit from being able to fit a Movement Predictor into one of the other HUD slots. These can be found in every mission as chest loot, mob drop loot, and as such, giving your scope this added range is worthless.

People who have ranted about imbalance in PvP havent got a clue. EG. Agent lvl 30 twinks into ql .... X-3, and a ql 80 LLTS. His 100 percent crit nano will only get him one crit, because of the slow rate of fire he has chosen to accept. If he were to equip an Abigail, which has a huge crit over a .7 charge / recharge rate, with no LLTS his 4 second crit nano may see him do 3 crits + aimed in the time his LLTS and X3 hits one shot...which amounts to a great deal more damage over such a short period of time. PvP isnt about owning 1 specific item, it is about combining the right items in the most effective manner for your needs.


Anyway, the most sensible suggestion here in my opinion is to make the LLTS Nodrop, and let evolution whittle down the number of LLTS ingame, without snubbing the LLTS users. As time goes on, these characters will inevitably leave the game, and the number of LLTS remaining in game will naturally decline. People who have recently spent millions of creds on them may be pissed that they cannot resell them, but at least they wont feel cheated by Funcom.,...

[_______________North]

1. Make the shop value for these scopes 250m for 15% one (less for lower ql versions)

2. Give me back 5 IP reset points.

[_______________Calio]

Since I have a scope, I live in dread that the designer's idea of giving the nerfed scopes new attributes in order to maintain their value is going to be something as truly uber as +1%xp and +150 tutoring (think pioneer backpack). They are, after all, so deathly afraid if creating a new imbalance that it is unlikely that they would ever dare introduce most of the suggestions posted here - stacking scopes, +200 damage: yeah right! get real. You have a better chance of finding 10 +190 SF's in the next 10 chests you pick, than having FC implement either of those modifiers.

That said, I would like to suggest a set of bonuses that would maintain their value and their utility, while making them very different from the new scopes.

first some facts, as I understand them:

1) crits increase damage rate over normal weapon damage. so do specials.

2) the supposed problem is the excessively high RATE of increased damage caused by the supposed excessively high rate of crits.

3) the nerf will cut the rate down to 8% max.

so, the question is what can you give the old scopes that CAN'T be gotten elsewhere (thus making them valuable), that would also enhance their utility above the new scopes in some reasonable way (thus maintaining their utility). I suggest 2 modifiers.

1) I suggest is that they be gven bonuses to all special attack skills (Burst, FA, AS, Fling) up to ~150 (on the 200's) = sort of like a pair of uber kaehlar sleeves. Bonuses have to be to all such skills, so all profs can use them with a weapon usable by that prof. Incidentally, soldiers (who dearly need some love) would get the most benefit.

Many of these bonuses (e.g., FA) are not readily available in other items. This would make them extremely useful for buffing permanently into items without being OE (e.g., as is, even with full 200 implants, a nanomage NT cannot get the 725 FA needed to equip a Khan pistol before level 195 - this would change that) and thus extremely valuable.

The bonuses would also increase special attack damage via the increased skill modifier (I think). This would maintain their higher utility in combat. But, because specials have to recycle - unlike crits, which can theoretically be continuous if you get a series of lucky rolls -- the added damage from the special attacks is lower than the added damage from the old (high) level of crits.

2) I suggest they be given a modifier to damage equivalent to 2 rings of power of equivalent level. (QL200 scopes get +40). This doesn't up damage all that much but it does up damage while leaving fingers free for other new rings. it also gets rid of the extremely annoying minimal hits of single digit damage.

Well, that's my 2 cents on the subject. Truth is i'm not terribly optimistic about getting anything really useful. The Devs are just too damn scared of introducing new imbalances to put anything in that actually confers a USEFUL advantage, because useful advantages actually get used (what a shocker!) and advantages actually confer some kind of advantage (damn! another shocker!).

[Anonymous]

I would like to cast my vote for the following changes (though not necessarilly ALL of them):

1) agg/def bonus
2) RI penalty removed
3) slight RI bonus added
4) dmg bonus
5) AS bonus

Also, I would like to suggest something a bit different. Don't know if anyone has mentioned it before (simply too much material to read on here). Allow the scopes to have a 100% crit chance special that lasts for, say, 4-5 seconds. It would work like a special and recycle slowly, but would allow for a qucik period of rapid critting. This would of course somehow have to be coded to be used only on mobs, not players, for obvious reasons, but I think it would be very useful, especially against boss mobs and such.

One more thing: in order to make players happy, you will have to reduce the RIn penalty on these scopes. But frankly I think that will have an even greater unbalancing effect. I mean if I can fire a Krutt at 1/1 with an 19% crit chance (8% VE, 7% mop, 4% TTS), then I'll probably do MORE dmg than an ithaca at 1/1 with my 13% scope, since I'll lose 1/20 chances of critting but I'll be hitting for 1k more every time I do crit. I don't want to THINK about what an enf with a beam could do.

[_____Real Kinky Ityn]

If you nurf the crit return them to the normal loot tables. The reason why they were removed is because they were overpowered, if you tone them down, put them back, if they remain better than other scopes, rather than an "alternative" to another scope, you will continue to foster an unwillingness for new players to participate in PVP.

[Cheetra]

in addition to my previous suggestion:

In a nut shell:
+damage
+evade
+off
+def

other possible addition:
+200 ish map nav

reguardless of the question of "what does a scope do", and "that isnt' relistic" ( hey tutoring off a back pack isn't realistic either folks ).

Why? There are to my knowledge no buffs or implants or items in game that boost map nav. With a bonus to map nav the scope does save some IP from going into a one time use skill that's only used to upload maps and map upgrades, it would allow the 700 requirement maps ( which are all pvp zones ) to uploaded with fewer ip, and that in turn would assist the users in maintaining an edge in pvp vs those that don't have an old school scope.

With the Shadowlands expansion pack on the horizon and no info yet as to what the map nav req's will be for those zones ( and the added incentive to pvp that the booster pack is supposed to have ), this addition could be a very beneficial one without effecting actual damage numbers futher then already suggested.

[odian102]

Lets keep in mind its a scope! not a item that adds to everything under the moon.

First, Allow the players to sell the scope back to a shop.

1) this will allow the players that dont want the altered scope to get some of there money back. -funcom will determine the amount.
2) If, you sell the scope back. You get money and 2 iprs in exchange. This can be done by having the vender machine giving u a nodrop item that when uploaded gives you 2 iprs.
3) Why 2 iprs?- so, you can reset electical eng. and weapon smithing . the too skills used to equip the scope.

Scope modifications. -Keep in mind, this is a scope.
This is an example of a 15% scope modification, The bonus's can be reduced depending on the %. not the lvl quality. Most people got scopes based on % not lvl quality. (the lower the lvl quality with the same % to crit the better the scope was.)

15% scope mod:

8% to crit - Why? Funcom has already desided that point
+200 to perception- why? when u look thru a scope the
surroundings are multipled.
+100 to all ranged specials (including multi wield)
- Why? you are focused on hitting a
target.
-100 to run speed- Why? you are focused on a target. The
concentration is increased. You cant focus if
your running.
-100 to range init -Why? you are steading your shot, but not to
the point of been nervous about shooting
+200 to damage types -Why? your using the scope to magnify
areas of vulerability.
-350 to melee and physical init
-why? the scope was designed originally for
ranged weapons but has been modified
recently by a team of ICC weapons
engineers. the modifications are not perfect
but are still beening researched.
+315 to aim shot - why? this is equal to the ve 8% bonus

[Hennessy]

Until you give us the reason why they are being nerfed, its VERY hard for any of us to come up with ways to keep them valuable. Without the reason, how can we come up with productive suggestions? We may be wasting our time suggesting ideas that contribute to the reason it is being nerfed.


The only things I can come up with are giving me 2 IPR points, as well as 1 million credits for each QL of the scope. A lot of people spent countless hours of time saving for these scopes, don't let that go to waste.