Nerfing LLTS - Improvement suggestions only

[_______FrostGigas/LS]

Originally posted by LittleSlayar
Several people have suggested offering us 2 IPR points to gain the IP we spent on someithng many will not use anymore. Others have mentioned that certain weapons will become useless without their high crit chances. I agree with both of these ideas. Because of that, some players may want to choose alternative wpn strategies, but may also lack the IP to do so.

I suggest an additional 1 time Full IPR

This will allow those who have based their whole characters simply on their ability to crit, to addapt to this new change, keeping a useful, playable character

I reiterate this is a necesity -LS

[skybert]

I may have some suggestions here...

Fine, reduce the crit%, but add
+damage to it(like a damagebuff).
+skill (like a wrangle)
+xp(like an IQ-ring. It makes you learn of your own mistakes)
+offence (kinda like flurry does, but constant)
+defence (like the defencering)
+critVALUE of your weapon (if possible)
+int (like a boost)
+runspeed(It gives you a slightly better path)
+perception (it highlights enemies and such)
+%chance of spotting sneaking chars, nomatter your perception (IT actively searches for hidding persons, and notify you when it finds someone. First the hidden dude checks against your perception, THEN against the scope)
+%critbonus for a short duration when activated, but takes some time to recharge (up to the normal valuie of 'today')
+postcount on the board for ech person you kill in PvP (not even serious suggestion)
+evades (since it guesses where your target is going to strike, and thus helps you avoid it)
+damage (wait, I allready said that. Guess I'm out of ideas for now.... )

add at least three of the above mentioned things, and you just might pull this one off without people going totally nuts on you.

[_________________DIO]

well if 200 ellts only have 8% cirtical like 250 ve what bonus = the missing 7% cirtical chance ?

1 add attack rating !!!( not weapon skills )

2 add dmg (if not > 100 useless)

3 less init reduce (well if use ithaca no need a lot init so not that useful)

4 reduce special recharge time ( hard lol )

5+ ~400some* special skill no fa brust probablly (dose not make
sense scope add brust skill )

6 only works on range weapon ..........????

7 xp???( no idea why i say this lol )

Ez said "We're looking into adding other bonuses to the Low Light Targeting Scope, to ensure that it stays as valuable as it is now."

let's think about how many atk we need to get as valuable as 7% cirtical chance ( make mop as non-prof require nano ??)
200 ?
300 ? break balance again lol

whatever u wanna do just do it .Plz remember what u promised as valuable as it is now .

Don't always think about new players ..... without old players AO will not be as famous as it is now !
Balance is important but plz also be respect to the time and money we paid .
THX

[Pneuma]

How about introducing the higher QL Vision Enhancers & reinstating the dropping of the LLTS instead of removing it? Would be a lot easier & keep everyone happy. The LLTS should be for trade skill people & the Vision Enhancers should be for ppl who choose to spend on perception skill. They should be equal in strength & cost to equip. Seems simple enough to me.

[_______________oXiDe]

I think we should be able to get another full IPR first off.. seeing that my weapon choices will soon be considered unwise..

I think the new scopes should add to ranged int (boost) and they should add 25-100 points to all special weapon skills ( depending on the QL of the scope)

option 2

They boost the ranged int.. ( boost) and they cut the special ( burst, fling, full auto, aimed shot etc..) time by 25 %.. AND.. increase attack rating by 50-100 points.


If you are going to nerf something.. but want to retain its value.. then make it good. These scopes are more valuable than any other "special" item in the game.. make it worthwhile for the people that actually took LOTS of their time to get one of these items.

[Czarina]

Originally posted by Naraya
It's pretty simple really...

If you are going to make the crit chance the same on both scopes and you want to make the LLTS remain as "valuable"...

1. The LLTS should provide an Add All Offense modifier of some kind (maybe 30 or 40 points).

2. It should not just boost one ranged special skill (Aimed Shot), but all of them (Aimed Shot, Burst, Full Auto, Fling Shot, Bow Special Att).

3. The range bonus on an LLTS should push ANY weapon's range to the max.

4. The scope should drop all non-ranged weapon skills by -2000. It is a targetting scope designed to enhance the chances of critically hitting your target with a ranged weapon from a distance. It should not be feasible to use with non-ranged weapons.

5. Leave the reqs of the scope alone. Many characters have already been built up to use them and I'm pretty sure you don't want to have to go through another IPR.

6. The scope should drop again.

2. It should not just boost one ranged special skill (Aimed Shot), but all of them (Aimed Shot, Burst, Full Auto, Fling Shot, Bow Special Att).

hmmm.. yeah.. lets turn it from a LLS nerf to a Soldier nerf... because that's what soldiers need is for everyone to be as adept at using specials as them... and since skills don't matter in specials soldier can slide further into nerf hell!!!

a scope is used to hit critical areas.. it's a aimed shot attack and sneak attack boost at best...

when you want it to be a Full auto boost is sick.

I even see some people mention one that adds +200 to burst, FA, etc.

this would take the scopes from being worth a couple of hundred mil to being worth 1bil+.... why? because with it you can magically save yourself hundreds of thousands of ip...

the idea is for the scope to be revamped.. keeping it's value while not being ridiculously overpowered.. else it will just be nerfed again... I have 7 scopes.. I don't want to see them nerfed, but I don't want to see them both nerfed and all my soldier based skills stripped from me and given to every single class...

if they had any item that adds +200 to burst, Fling, FA... THEN ANYONE can boost there skills to 610 burst, 500 fling, 500 FA without ever putting a single ip into it....

Now if that isn't unbalancing.. I don't know what is.




I guess by the posts you can read that this scope is the most unbalancing item to ever be in the game... and I'm assuming this because everyone expects 100+ skills and + offense and ten other uber things to be on the scopes before it will even be reasonably acceptable....

Again.. DON'T nerf one of the few abilities Soldiers have by essentially giving it to everyone in the form of scopes!

[______________Makyla]

whatever you do, please remember that its a "low light targetting scope"!! Targetting scopes should have nothing to do with runspeed, xp, dodge/evade, ect. it should only be about improving the shooting/hitting characteristics for the user. If your goal is to adhere to that as well as retaining the high value of these, then you should raise those related skills accordingly.. also - you asked about reintroducing the llts, bad idea because then your goal of keeping the value is lost (unless you release it in very limited supply). Some ideas for bonus to accomplish the above would be:

+ burst
+ fling
+ FA
+ brawl
+ dimach
+ all dmg types by 200
+ attack rating by 50
+ max crit 8%
+ leave init as it is (when you use a scope, it should take longer to aim/shoot than if you are not aiming with a scope, right?)

you get the point

[Resta]

Intruduction.
First off all even having 13 and 15 old LLTS i dont think i should be superiror to players who started to play this game couple moth ago and dont have acces to those scopes. Fun and Joy from the game shouldnt be based on time you spend in it and how long you play. Currently demand for new old scopes very high but supply very low that makes prives to raise into skyes and even if you get money you still not gurantied to get scope.

Balance issue

Making old scopes still good will not fix the balance between old players and new players. If funcom wants to make money then all players should be happy and i think they expect to get more coustomers by releasing Booster Pack. Its not fun to be new player slowly getting up in lvls equiping character trying to pvp and then to find out that you have no slight chance to win in it becasue someone who played this game for a year can totaly vaste you becasue they have old school LLTS which new players cant get. LLTS will not die out like happend to old Sunbursts and FA there were so few of those and SO MANY LLTS.
I assume you want to make LLTS still better then vision enchancer thats not right. I explained why.

Weapons in AO
In all mmorpg and roleplaying games slow hitting weapon usualy does more damage. In AO its oposite actualy best damaging weapon is the one that very fast and has good critcal damage aka snaksmaster, raid, novaflows they good becasue you can increase your damage output by puting scope. Well it shouldnt be like this. Critical hits should be critcal and rare not that you can do 3 crits in 10 shots. You added new weapons that work by principle slower weapon higher damage aka CHS X3 riffle. BUT STILL DOCTOR WITH Raids and 13 scope outdamages doctor with X3 and damage difference is great. And soldier with Nova Flow outdamages soldier with CHS.

Suggestion kill two birds with one stone
Dont nerf LLTS live them alone you will keep coustomers who have them happy. BUT! make them worsless. If some gun with Vision Enchancer will do MORE damage then my raids with 15% LLTS I will use the a new gun. This way you will keep those who have old scope happy because there was no nerf and balance game.

Ways to implement it
Please dont make those weapons drop from certaint mobs or as team mission boss loot like you did to CHS/X3. Why dont you consider upgrading old weapons trough trade skills like mauser chamical streamer. yes i know its a lot of work but atleast there will be more use of trade skills. For example Modifed Raid Missle Pistol
Damage 50-500(250)
Attack Speed 3.00
Recharge Speed 1.00
Requments Pistol 800
Fling Shot 392

Sure i will go for this weapon and i cant use my old llts with it becasue of 3.00 attack speed. Actualy i will do much better if i use Vision Enchancer becasue of less initiate penalty.

Conclusion
Kill three birds with one stone. Make weapons that can do more damage only with Vision Enchancer then weapons that used with 15% LLTS. Make those new weapons made by trade skills and allow us to upgrade our old weapons to new one. And ofcource new IPR so we can reset us for other weapons and dump those IP that we used for LLTS.

[edit]
I bet 100 bucks that i just wasted 30 minuties to write it and no one from Funcom will read it. Prove me that i am wrong

[________________Æxíd]

Remember, the point is to make the LLTS still worth more and in other ways better than the VE's.

Theoretically an 8% VE would be better than a current 13% LLTS, due to the 15% LLTS going down to 8%, which must bring the 13% down to 7% or 6%.

Remember FC: LLTS MUST be better than the VE's otherwise the economy will go whack.

[Talanie]

Originally posted by LittleSlayar
Yes, nerfing ELLTS's sux economy wise, i spent nearly 500mil on two different scopes. But, I am an MA, i will survive, if there is compensation. Here is my thought:

Several people have suggested offering us 2 IPR points to gain the IP we spent on someithng many will not use anymore. Others have mentioned that certain weapons will become useless without their high crit chances. I agree with both of these ideas. Because of that, some players may want to choose alternative wpn strategies, but may also lack the IP to do so.

I suggest an additional 1 time Full IPR

This will allow those who have based their whole characters simply on their ability to crit, to addapt to this new change, keeping a useful, playable character

Just my thoughts - LS

I would gladly give up my ellts if I had another full ipr.

[Cerber]

How about all old school soldiers who raised their useless WS skill to get into 14-15% scopes?

At least Vision Enhancer makes you raise semi usefull perception...

Ahhhhh.....


I guess making it into a weapon would help. How about give fixers ability to hack them and engineers would make a head based tiny weapon out of it?

Something like an additinal attack with a fling/brawl recharge time. Does not have to do alot of damage but at least some compensation for the loss of a crit. bonus.

[Kinkstaah]

My first suggestion is to stop the noobs posting.

Seriously. If you have no experience with LLTS's, High level PVP, etc etc etc etc etc, Dont post.

There are reasons why I dont post in the Doctor forum. Because I dont know crap about the Doctor profession. So please, if you dont know anything about scopes - Dont post here.

First Suggestion - IPR. Give everyone 2-5 IPR points. It doesnt matter if the end solution is "Better" Than the VE. The end solution may not be BETTER than the VE for *everyone* unless its pretty much left as it is now.

2-5 (people may need to change weapon for example) IPR is an absolute must. To every char in the game.

Anyone who is suggesting +XP, and +trade skills, etc - I dont know what you are smoking. This is a device that goes into your Hud that influences what you see and helps you aim.

I have seen +Damage mentioned a few times. This is good. But people have always said +10, +20, +40, or something like that. Thats simply not enough. +40 is +20 in pvp. Someone hitting me for 620 or 640 is not worth 250Million for the scope.

If you are going to add damage - It needs to be +200 *at least* (which is +100 in pvp)

Init penalty should be half, or lower than the same QL VE. The whole idea is to make these things better. So thus -200 or less at QL200 for the "new" LLTS.

People asking for Full Auto, Fling buffs - Huh? Lets try to keep it
fair and leave it a valuable item that everyone can acutually still
use. If you dont, heh. Guess what you will see - Enforcers and
Adventurers using guns. Its that simple. MA's too.

AMS buff would be great. People like AMS nowadays. It helps against people with high evades, or non weapon specialists like Doctors, and aiding against raising dark blue skills. It also ties in with the theme of a vision enhancing item. You should "hit" better.

My End Suggestion:
QL 200 Extreme Low-Light Targetting Scope
+200 All Damage*
+200 AMS
-200 All Inits.
+8% Crit chance.

(*Maybe not needed with AMS boost. Would prefer AMS myself. Makes more sense too.)

But NO CRAP, a lower crit - But still a damn good item worth spending
money on. Which is what it is supposed to remain.

[Tza]

For each E(Extreme=above 8% crit)LTTS I'm gonna loose, give me 1 boon instead.

This boon, I can use to do:

*) Automatically hit General Viv*POOOF*yan out in PW
*) First hit will kill the General.
*) Let me loot a Nophex Plasmadestroyer MK III (a modified version with a min dam higher than the "#¤¤ 1 you get on all the other solja weapons).
*) Let me distribute all those weapons among my solja brothers and sistas

Remove the damn scopes, but give us the IPR to make up for the skills raised.

I see two things happening from the scope nerf:

Ppl will be able to move the agg slider more towards def when fighting - you guys think that was what FC had inteded with the higher init?

Now, if you wanna use a crit reliant weapon (no, the MA's aren't a weapon), you pay for it with all the crappy hits that follow. Perhaps that would make those who excell at regular dam (and MA's) actually count for something

Being high lvl doesn't mean you kill faster than the lvl 125 peeps, but that you can take the beating = you can fight on defensive - way it should be?

Not that anybody can take up a weapon and dish out alot of dam 'cause they can crit.

Now get us our love patches comming (those of us who still have one comming in the (near???) future).

________________________________
Littletza, President of Shadow Ops
197 solitus soldier
RK2

"And so, the wierd turned pro."

[_______FrostGigas/LS]

I agree with Kinkstaah, nice suggestion for the New ELLTS Model. I also reinfluence the need for IPR - LS

[Cheetra]

First off i'm the person that originally researched LLTS and posted the results on the punching bag, so i'm very familiar with the scopes themselves, how they work and what benefits they give at what lvls.

Of cousre the first suggestion, must be: Dont change them, the down side more then makes up for the up side verses vision enhancers.

However, as it looks like we are going to shafted on the developers listening to that suggestion, i'm going to out line some things that *MIGHT* keep the items near their current value in game.

First here's what the old LLTS did, i didn't include Aimed Shot bonuses in my original research as it's just icing on the cake imo. I'm also going to narrow this list down as much as possible by only including ranges ( ie +11% scopes is from x ql to X ql range )



QL +%crit Elect Eng Wpn Smt -Init
15 1 46 31 -50

24 2 83 61 -86

34 2 124 95 -127
35 3 128 98 -131
48 3 181 142 -184
49 4 185 145 -188
60 4 230 182 -232
61 4 234 185 ~-236
62 5 238 189 -241
73 5 283 225 -285

75 6 291 232 -293
87 6 340 272 ?
88 7 344 276 ?
100 7 393 316 -395
101 8 397 319 -399
114 8 450 363 -451
115 9 454 366 -455
127 9 503 406 -504
128 10 507 410 -508
138 10 548 443 -549

141 11 560 453 -561
153 11 609 493 -609
154 12 613 497 -614
163 12 650 527 -650

169 13 674 547 -674
180 13 719 584 -719

182 14 728 591 -727
193 14 772 628 -772
194 15 777 631 -776
200 15 801 651 -800

As you can see some llts where actually more valuable at a lower QL. The best example being the ql 194 which has the lowest possible - init, the lowest possible equip req.'s and the highest possible +% to crit.

obviously with upcoming changes to recharge timers being effected by actual init the ideal solution would ( again ) be to leave the scope alone, as the init debuff effecting recharge timer also goes a good way to reducing damage over time with a LLTS ( which i must assume is the real aim here ).

By reducing the ql 194 to 200 scopes to +8% ( if that's the ql range in question ), in game value drops dramitically, how to keep it up becomes highly challenging, increases to specific combat skills only servers to keep the value down as only specific profession would want the item, simply smacking a +xp modifier on it again does not keep the value up as many would feel it a waste of ip that will only be reset at the end game ( when they just equip a VE over the LLTS ).

In order to keep the value near levels they are currently here is my suggestion, in addition to the % crit that will be left on the nerfed LLTS

All suggestions assume the top end scopes: ql 194 to 200

1) leave init debuff as is
2) +42 damage modifier to all damage types
3) +25 skill bonus to evade, duck and dodge skills
4) +8 off ( ie numeric value as the llts crit bonus )
5) +8 def
6) enable Aimed Shot on any ranged weapon used
7) enable Sneak Attack on any melee weapon used


Alternate idea:

1) reduce init negatives to VE levels
2) change to hud slot 2
I'm not here to debate melee vs range use of the scope, that's a different thread



Peace

[_________________DIO]

Cheetra do u think the scope u made is = 15% ellts ??

42 dmg + 25 eva+ 8 all def ( = another 8 eva) +aim shot = 7% cirtical chance ???????

[_______FrostGigas/LS]

Originally posted by Cheetra
All suggestions assume the top end scopes: ql 194 to 200

1) leave init debuff as is
2) +42 damage modifier to all damage types
3) +25 skill bonus to evade, duck and dodge skills
4) +8 off ( ie numeric value as the llts crit bonus )
5) +8 def
6) enable Aimed Shot on any ranged weapon used
7) enable Sneak Attack on any melee weapon used

I'm not here to debate melee vs range use of the scope, that's a different thread

Peace

+42 dmg is nothing, no reason for it add evades or def mod. and adding SA is completely beyond of the nature of the scope -LS

[Mercatura]

-Convert all LLTS to VEs
-Double their QL
-Spread some IPR points around.

Must do all 3 for it to work.

I like that full IPR again idea a lot myself. I forgot to do 2 chars myself.

[_________Divinecross]

I use a shotgun. I will want much critical % as high as possible which why use a ql 177 ellts with 13% critical. You nerf my scope to only having 6-7% with some mods on it I'm going just use a ql 250 VE and I will want IPR for skill put into my ELLTS. If wanted use my new scope well then going need IPR's to switch weapons. If the critical % were to convert over to 8% in the nerf I would be happy continue using both scope and weapon. Key suggestion would be make all ELLTS with critical % of 8 or above to be 8% after nerf. Scale the mods in the ellts's by the ql.

[________________Fred]

1st: Add a damage modifier. Adding a 50-80 damage modifier, while not coming close to the extra Crit damage, would go along with the concept of the scope itself.

2nd: Have lower Init penalties than the VE's.


3rd: No non-combat skill increases. The scope is designed to modifiy damage, it has nothing to due with other skills. Adding +30 to a trade skill makes no since. And please, stop the Perception insanity. We do NOT need another item to raise perception. Anyone over level 135 can easily raise they're perception into the 800's, without spending a single point of IP.

4td: XP increase. While some experiance increase would (of course) be nice, I think the main thing that the scope should increase is damage (i.e. suggestions 1 and 2).

And finally if/when you do nerf the ELLTS's, don't scale their crits, them like you did the reflect bracers. When a +9 ELLTS gets nerfed, it should have the maximum crit, +8. After the nerf, and old +9's and +15's should have the same crit increase (+8), the differnace should be the old +15's have much higher bonuses (higher damage modifier, higher aimed shot, higher fling).

Fred