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Thread: Nerfing LLTS - Improvement suggestions only

  1. #1

    Lightbulb Nerfing LLTS - Improvement suggestions only

    The first thread turned out to be more or less discussion only, so I'll add this one for suggestions only.

    Ok, topic set: Suggestions for improvements to LLTS, to make it viable if getting a crit bonus nerf.

    Off-topic posts here will be deleted. Take the nerf discussion here.

    Added comments:

    "Don't nerf it" is noted. No need to repost it here. Leave that to the discussion. Same with "delete it".

  2. #2

    My suggestions

    Just listen to players. And also to those who have been online a long time!

    Aimabel - Duplo using soldier RK2

  3. #3

    how to keep value

    Okay im not sure how anything right now can justfy loosing 7% crit but im going to try an make some suggestions.

    1: Remove the init penalty

    2: do not make this nodrop or anything stupid

    3: add a def or agg bonus

    4: increase the aimedshot bonus

    5: add a rifle bonus

    6: add more to range bonus

    7: note that many melee users esp enf are using this too
    so try to think of something for them also.

    8: and for the llts scopes above 12% make them 8% crit dont make them super duper 3% crits please

    Theese are at least some of the thought i can come up with,
    do remember you are screwing with something very sensitive here, as many ppl have given up their dragon armour and whatever to have this. _____________________________________
    Last edited by Cyberbob; Oct 1st, 2002 at 14:45:27.

  4. #4
    i'll repost my suggestion

    My suggestion on what to do on this nerf (Although I think it an Unnecessary Nerf).

    Take your profesionals and do some testing of damage over time with the crit damage per ql of scope.

    Figure out what the damage per hit would be at 1/1 and then add that to the scope.

    So if a 15% scope had 4000 more damage over 100 seconds then add 40 damage per hit. I realize its probably more like 15000 per 100 seconds but still it may help offset the crit decrease by adding an increase over time. This would help in pvm (especially the boss mob) and hurt in pvp (which is what i assume is why you are nerfing this).

    Here are some other suggestions as well

    1. an xp bonus is nice also but for a 200 level player useless.
    2. HOT Bonus
    3. Burst, AS, FS regeneration decreased

    adding keep the crit increse though along with these bonuses. I would absolutely love a hot for 100-200 a click.
    lvl 200 Crat

    lvl 81 Adventurer

    lvl 58 Fixer

    lvl 70 Enforcer

    lvl 54 MA

  5. #5

    Thumbs up


    vision enhancer Ql 400:

    modify self aimed shot 600
    modify self critical chance 10
    modify self Rifle 200
    modify self melee init -800
    modify self physical init -800
    modify self ranged init -800
    modify self weapon range 80

    LLTS Ql400:

    modify self fling shot 600
    modify self critical chance 10
    modify self shotgun 200
    modify self melee init -800
    modify self physical init -800
    modify self ranged init -800
    modify self special recharge -10%


    modify self fling shot 300
    modify self Burst shot 300
    modify self critical chance 10
    modify self shotgun 200
    modify self melee init -800
    modify self physical init -800
    modify self ranged init -800
    modify self special recharge -10%

    rename it to something like "quick targeting Scope" and make BOTH scopes droppable up to Ql 400 by hardcore bosses (1-100 mob loot, 100-250=semi-rare boss loot, 250-400 dynacamp bosses)
    so we got 2 scopes, 1 for the ranged guys with AS and rifle (perhaps make them adjustable with tradeskill to change from rifle to bow and vice versa)
    and 1 for fast shooting, bursting and FAing guys
    (tradeskills again to change shotgun/assault rifle, fling/FA, burst/FA)

    gimme some comments guys

    edit: double the Ql of every existing LLTS e.g. Ql200 LLTS = QL 400 quick targeting scope (which should be pretty rare and everyone is satisfied...)
    Last edited by Lord Jammer; Oct 1st, 2002 at 14:54:06.

  6. #6


    If this should happen.... put damage back to 100%... as it should have been ages ago

    and a whole litter of bearcubs ...

    "Only the dead have seen the end of war." -- Plato
    "You see me now, a soldier, of a 1000 psychic wars...." -- Blue Oyster Cult

  7. #7
    ql200 LLTS

    modify self assault rifle 200
    modify self ranged ener 200
    modify self critical chance 15
    modify self fling shot 600
    modify self burst 600
    modify self full auto 600
    modify self melee init -800
    modify self physical init -800
    modify self ranged init -800

    /me waves to Lord Jammer

    lol sorry just kidding. Well a good suggestion would be:

    1. decrease init penalty to the init penalty a ql250 ve have - not less! cause think about how uber slow weapons like the krutt will become when you decrease the init penalty to much.

    2. you still have no nano-init penalty on a LLTS so it is still better as a ql250 ve!

    3. give the LLTS a +xx amount of dmg. (ie. ql200 LLTS +40 dmg) Don't do to much think about the dragon chest! You cannot make the dmg modifier better as the one on a dragon chest!

    4. and the best suggestion will be don't nerf the LLTS! Begin to drop the ql400 VE ingame.

  8. #8
    oh, hehe, forgot to decrease the crit modifier
    k, what is acceptable for a Ql 400 ultra rare scope ? 12 % ? 10% ?
    i'll edit it, it wasn't meant to be better than before

    but think about the tradeskill thingie, i think its cool.

  9. #9
    What about making a targeting scope or something (adrenal booster, combat drugs?) add to aggdef (as in the aggdef slider, not def skills) instead of adding directly to crit chance. I would personally prefer aggdef bonus to any crit bonus. Why have 2 devices that do almost the same thing (even if you add extra bonuses to the LLTS it will still just be a crit buff)

    Put the aggdef item in the same slot as targeting scopes so they cant be doubled up and it would give an option to customize your fighting style a bit while making some guns with better reg dmg but lower crits a truely viable option. Why make combat so dependant on crits?
    Last edited by Fakonamo; Oct 1st, 2002 at 15:06:53.

  10. #10
    Why are we nerfing the scopes in the first place ? If you nerf Crits on these old scopes then nerf Ma Self only UVC and LMA . Old school llts are our only means of keeping things in banalce against Ma's .

    When you do nerf Old school LLTS her is what you should return to them to make them valuable again .

    1) Remove the Init penaltys . That is a definat !
    2) Add a bonus to all Specials ie it has Aimshot already , add burst fling and Fullauto
    3) Dont make it nodrop !
    4) Change only the higher ql scopes .

    Just my 2cents .

  11. #11
    possible suggestions:

    no tradeskill buffing with it, its a war item
    no shotgun/assault rifle add cause there are also pistols,smgs, bows, rifle whose wearers also want to "profit" from the nerf.

    add maybe (and/or wise ment brainstorming):
    agg def bonis a good boni not some unimportant value
    agg off bonus (makes mroe sense with a scope)
    ranged int penality reduced (!)
    max health bonus
    nano resist bonus
    % in nano cost
    nano int+

    lost chapter fixer

  12. #12


    As stated previously by Jica, a bonus to tradeskills.

    Now before you go "wtf?" Think on this.

    a) What skills are USED to equip the LLTS?

    b) What could EVERY level that uses those skills in the game find beneficial?

    c) What is the game seriously lacking when all people speak of vehemently is damage?

    I, for one, abhorr hunting with my fixer. It is at best, a boring prospect. mission, mission, mission, mission, lather, rinse, repeat. I mean please, the one joy I have in playing her is my ability to strip implants and the tradeskills. As WEAK as that part of the game is, it is something that is never explored. The LLTS requires tradeskills to equip, whiy shouldn't the modifier to it be along the lines of a bonus to that area (and I don't mean a lame +8 to skill at QL know that is BS, and I don't mean Broken Servers)? Perhaps doing this would add what people have been crying for to this game, and that is depth !

    Tradeskills have been neglected for far too long, and a scope that is USING tradeskills to equip should modify them in that respect.

    People that use these and don't do tradeskills will hate this idea! But perhaps the loss of ppl equipping an item to crit, when it uses trades to do so (and it's dmg value cannot be replaced without it still staying as "overpowered" as it is) would be better replaced with those interested in tradeskills?

    Perhaps this seems off base, but in all senses of what is used to makes the most realistic tradeoff, without requiring a "fix" later.

    oh, and as I'm editing bc a line came out wrong...what are traders light blue skilled in using, shotguns. What are traders to specialise in supposedly (they ARE TRADERs after all...) trades. Tradeskill classes (traders, engies, MPs, Docs) use crit scopes, pure and simple. The ones that want added dmg already do ENOUGH dmg as it is. I can solo reds with a sub 200 VE and VS. Why the hell do you need to equip a 15% scope to play if that is the case? I could be self casting LMA and using the llts, but it's overkill. I can kill as effectively in 10 punches as I can in 8. Those that "need" it, prolly need to rethink why they are playing a non dmg class if they want to do dmg. If all you care about in the game is how much dmg you can do, don't complain that you need to roll an enforcer or MA. You like to do dmg, play a dmg class. You want to be something else, play it as intended.

    /me votes for LLTS change, with options listed here.

    -my 2c
    Last edited by Fistofpaper; Oct 1st, 2002 at 15:25:18.
    Lisa "Fistofpaper" Bliss
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  13. #13
    i said make the weapon and special skills exchangeable via tradeskills pistol etc too.

    why should a SCOPE effect your maxhealth, NR or nano cost ?
    I want to see THAT item description !

    "err Izgimmer enhanced this ... errr.... thing ... err .... somhow ........ and now its lowering your nanocost !"

  14. #14

  15. #15

    How about this :

    In addition to a minor critical chance boost, and the init decrease, also increase the maximum damage you can do with the weapon. Maybe somewhere between double and triple at QL200, or a straight increase - this should be balanced properly. This way, you can make a LOT more weapons usable, like the fast low-damage weapons that, right now, are only usable at low QLs.
    Basically you trade speed for normal damage instead of crit damage.

    This way, for example the Ithaca user will get less crits, but higher regular damage in return, making this, and many other weapons, useful.

    Of course, it'll have to be more available again

  16. #16
    I don't want to see the scopes nerfed, specially since I just dropped 150m on one last night, heh. But, if they are being changed...some things to consider:

    The incremental 7% crit for ~350 init penalty is something many players 'chose' to take on, thus in order to keep the value similar you have to give some set of bonuses such that what you provide is worth both the positive and negative aspects of this. Simply removing both pieces, does nothing, as this just makes an ELLTS the same as a VE. Things of value which could be included for PVM:

    Some combination of:
    Exp bonus (1-7%)
    +all damage types (10-70)
    +all off (20-140)
    +all def (20-140)
    +duck/dodge/evade (20-140)
    Significantly less init penalties than a similar % VE
    +10-70 ranged attack skills (rifle/smg/AR/Bow/pistol)
    +10-70 ranged special skills
    +10-70 sneak attack

    Nerfing of high level ELLTS constitutes a pretty significant change to PvP in weapon choices, and balance. Some classes who have a hard time with healing classes, will have an impossible time of it now. PvP needs a reason, a vision of why we should participate. Any change to ELLTS should reflect the designer's vision of 'why' we should be PvPing, and approximately aid in the 'how' we should PvP. Mods of value in PvP situations:

    +all damage types (10-70)
    +all off (20-140)
    +all def (20-140)
    +duck/dodge/evade (20-140)
    Significantly less init penalties than a similar % VE
    +10-70 ranged attack skills (rifle/smg/AR/Bow/pistol)
    +10-70 ranged special skills
    +10-70 Concealment
    Significantly higher AS modifier than a similar %VE
    +40-280 Perception

    Just a few thoughts to sum up. Obviously some of these changes hold more benefit for ranged professions/characters more than melee types. I know there's a separate discussion going on for that topic, and your decisions there would affect which of these mods would make the most sense to implement.

    In order to make other suggestions, we as players need some information also, such as:
    1) What is the driver for reducing crits on ELLTS?
    - If it's because some folks are whining about availability...I just acquired one for creds last night. They just need to spend a little more time/energy generating creds.
    - If it's because some weapon combinations are too powerful when combined with 15% scope, MOP, TTS, GoC x2. What are the 'normal' situations where this combination exists? In camelot fights certainly, but an extra couple of % of crits from a few people won't turn the tide there anyway.
    - If it's that mobs are *still* dying too fast, thus people are levelling too fast, remember that many of the folks levelling now don't have >8% scopes, so maybe you need to look elsewhere.
    - Your (the developer's) reasoning for *wanting* this change, will help us come up with suggestions that make sense.
    2) As a corollary to #1, what are you trying to achieve via this nerf?
    - Slower exp gain?
    - "Balance" for newer players?
    - Just to change PvP around a bit?

    CZ, if you are really looking for suggestions that your developers can implement, help us help you. In order to come up with viable solutions to make ELLTS valuable, we need info. I know you've posted that you are going to go get please, just get as much information as possible. While I don't want to see ELLTS nerfed, if it's going to happen, at least let us know the context by which our suggestions will be judged.


    PS. Adding tradeskills or such nonsense to LLTS is a joke, IMHO. They do not 'benefit' everyone. They'd certainly raise skills for everyone, but that's not the same thing. I got a Scope to Crit more qua do more damage. Any change should either allow me to either do a similar amount of damage in the same period of time, give me defensive bonuses to allow me to do slightly less damage but live longer, or allow me to deal significantly more damage in specialized instances but less damage in normal instances. Those would constitute a *change* not a *nerf* IMHO.
    [edit - added PS]
    Last edited by Condaan; Oct 1st, 2002 at 16:04:16.

  17. #17
    Ok, first off, don't nerf the scopes, yada yada.

    Now for the real suggestion:

    1. Bring the init penalty down to VE value.

    2. Sticking to the item itself (A Low Light Targeting Scope), add all off 140 or something like that.

    3. Also, since is it a Targeting scope, increase the damage each hit... because even while my character might not have got a critical hit, I am aiming at critical areas and therefore would do more damage with my weapon since I am getting close to those areas... I'm thinking something like +25 damage would be good.

    4. Lastly, add a few AC's. Something like 200 to each catagory at QL 200, and scale it down accordingly. Would be a small bonus, but a bonus that decreases the damage you take and make it perhaps worthwhile.

    [Edit: Changed the wording a bit to sound better]

    PS: Here's a suggestion. What if instead of nerfing the scopes you just capped the % of crit chance you could have, say something like 25% (or less) max? Wouldn't that fix a lot?
    Last edited by Purestyle; Oct 1st, 2002 at 16:38:05.
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    the words that I know, not quite desiring to,
    and how loquacious I can be when I set my
    mind down to it. But she wasn't impressed.
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    She wasn't impressed at all.


  18. #18

    Cool My suggestion is...

    Targeting scope vision enhancer ql 400 is as follows

    modify self aimed shot 600
    modify self critical chance 15
    modify self melee init -800
    modify self physical init -800
    modify self ranged init -800
    modify self weapon range 80

    An Ellts ql 400

    modify self aimed shot 600
    modify self critical chance 15
    modify self melee init -600
    modify self physical init -600
    modify self ranged init -600
    modify self weapon range 80
    modify self add all off +100
    modify self concealment +200

    This will be a nerf - though the scope would still hold a very good price.

    Yours faithfully
    These news were brought to you by XenCorp!

  19. #19
    1: reduce the init penalties and give them a healthy
    bonus to Offense/weapon skills

    2: Imunity to blinding nanos/explosions (I know...a small thing)

    3: xp modifier

    4: +on perception to spot those sneaky ones

    5: let owners of LLTSs exceede the hard capped weapon range of 40m

    6: bonus to specials recycle

    7 make them drop again (prolly the most importaint)
    "We are jolly green giants...walking the planet...with guns"

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  20. #20


    Take the ranged init away and lower the % crit in line with the VE's.

    Add to perception.

    Give everyone that has 1 or more scope(s) in their inventory 2 IPR's.

    Enforcers will be the hardest hit, but at least they will get their IP back and will still be able to sell the scope on the open market.
    Some days you are the bug; some days you are the windshield.

    Catch ya on the flip side.

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