Scopes and melee

[Crestfire]

Originally posted by Mara


Errrm have you ever seen a "TARGETING Scope" in Real Life? *lol*

Have you ever seen a Nova Flow in real life ? *lol*

Trying to make as much sense as you do. :P

Originally posted by Noer


The item discussed here is a TARGETING SCOPE. It has nothing to do with sneaking up behind a user and backstab them. Its an item that makes you better at AIMING.

It's not about realism, but about balance, besides some of you don't seem to get people actually AIM melee weapons.

[Phione]

Don't tell me you guys thought swinging in the air would allow you to actually hit something

[luxferro]

I agree that LLTS and scopes in general should give melee users a bonus as well.. even though the descriptions implies a gun.

or that melee weapons should have a higher crit chance just because if you are in melee range and someone swings a melee weapon they are gonna hit you unless you block it (parry). and if i slice you down the side with my SOL Fire Exec.. you are gonna bleed alot more than with a tiney bullet hole from a pistol.

if you wanna be realistic, if it is an actual scope that attaches to a gun, it should only be for rifels.. pistol uses should get laser sites that only work at night time.

also if you want to be more accurate, make the chance to crit scalable with the distance the player is to the mob (or other player)... this should apply to all weapons range limits.. if my smg only has a range up to 30, and i am 30 away from my target.. i should loose chance to crit.. if i am 3 away, i should crit.. (when u am 3 away, i actuall get a better chance to crit, but so does my oppenent..)

this would make actual stats and limits on a weapon play a role in choosing which ones you use.

ok, i got totally off topic.. but if they make it ranged only.. make something for the melee users too..or

[Oljalyn]

I hope FC will introduce a LOT more weapons for both melee and ranged users to cater different playstyles. And profession specific uber weapons that require 50+ people killing a lvl 300 boss to get is not how I want them to be implemented.

As it is now, there are so many useless weapons ingame. Some weapons require having a scope for crits, which is ok IF we had weapons that do the same amount of damage but isn't so crit reliant.

Concerning the scope issue, I think it would be nice if melee and ranged users had different "scopes". The LLTS/VE for ranged users and another device for melee users that for example adds to sneak attack or concealment, evades etc. instead of aimed shot. A wrist item would be nice. Bracer of melee expertise or something

[_____________Cloudehxx]

Noer you are wrong, take a look at the name of the new (TARGETTING SCOPES)

Vision Enhancer, Back at you clever man :P


BTW why do agents and fixers get sneak attack buffs and the only main profession i know that maxes sneak attack is really Enforcers, Dude.

Also 2 of the Sneak Attack Clusters conflict with Enforcer Set up.

Again, woohoo Funcom.

**** ups.

[Resta]

Something i could never understand about AO is missions and mele with scopes.

Omg give me a break MA need scope to do more damge. How much more? EXCUSME! MA has fastest attack speed best normal damage that varry 400-1000 and 2.6 k critcals. PLUS 25%+15%+4=44 that means critcal every second hit and good normal damage. Without scope they still do great ammount of damage and have highest critcal chance which with LLTS nerf will be realy highest. So yes MA/mele should not use Vision Enchancer/LLLTS. And yes i am MA doctor.

In echange you should make flury of bows more ifficent to balance things it should have higher critcal modifer and work longer and apply to psyhical ini.

Azz big huggles to you.
I know you want doctor CH be nerfed but have you ever thought that every class should be good at something MA can crit more then everybody and have better damage why cant i complitly heal myself?

[Toorqs]

Originally posted by Noer


Errr... its a targeting scope. So you wanna put a scope on your stick so you can do better sneak attacks with it? LOL

its a HUD item....it goes on your HEADS UP DISPLAY....OF COURSE IT SHOULD WORK FOR MELEE....sorry...caps.....but....yer.

who cares if it says "low light targetting scope"....isnt a vision enhancer the same thing? YES....its the FUTURE (whatever) so yes the crit modifiers SHOULD apply to melee also.....wake up.

[_____________Omnitax]

For christ sake its a SCOPE...
Scopes are not intended for any close combat activities.

U just dont wanna lose the crit chance on melee weps, and thats the truth.

Whats next u want the range increasin factor to apply on yar melee weps to??

*mutters*

[gnuman]

Originally posted by Cruentuz
Whats next u want the range increasin factor to apply on yar melee weps to??

They already do, LOL. And yes its retarded.

[Cheetra]

First off the assumpition that the LLTS is part of a weapon is erronious, it's not, it's a item that is mounted on a HUD display.

For those of you confusing the LLTS with real world scopes of any sort:

real life low light targeting scopes do absolutely nothing to increase your chances of hitting a vital location, the one thing they do is increase you ability to preceive the target

real life llts are completely ruined if you remove the end caps the scope during day light hours.

real life scopes are completely useless in any areas with: 1) open flames 2) lighting. Attempting the use a low light scope to aquire a target in either setting will kill your night vision and give you a giant blotch of very bright green on your scope, it can also seriousl damage the scope, ie cause that giant blotch of green to to fade and reducing the scope to a peice of junk.


Do not make the assumption that in game scopes bear any sort of relation to real life low light targeting scope at all, because they don't.


Now let's take a look at the only probably way a low light targeting scope could provide any sort of bnous to crit:

1) the scope would have to information uploaded about potentially weak point in several target types: IE x location in X body armor type is weakest here: *area high lighted on HUD*

thus resulting in the need for more precision from the person recieving the information to take advantage of the informtion: IE init reduction as you have to more carefully aim for your target area. ( dont' think someone with a sword can aim? go watch a fencing match points are only awarded for hitting specific locations )

IF the scope attached to a weapon, and modified THE WEAPON, then your idea might hold water, the dont' do that though, they are a HUD upgrade and as such there is no reason why they shouldn't work for any one to point out those weak points. They do NOT aim for you, real life of in AO. They do not in real life give any sort of bonus to hit a vital area on a target, sorry - that's all in the training you recieve, and has nothting to do with techno-magic devices.

NEXT POINT: low light scopes REAL WORLD do nothing to increase the max effective range of ANY wepaon system.

You ask: should it apply to close combat weapons or forms?

I ask: should it apply at all?

In both cases the scope should do NOTHING to increase effective range. Why? Does the HUD display effect the lenght of your barrel? No. Does the HUD display effect the amount of powder in your bullet? No. Does the HUD display effect the energy precharge chamber of that super high tech weapon? NO. Neither does it effect the length of a melee fighters weapons or ARMS. also no.

there should be no range increase period. after all... scopes are part of the items needed to make most long range weapons with AO trade skills



As to Flurry of Blows:
Amazing the misconception ranged user have as to the effects on a Flurry of Blows. I'll go over it:

Activate FoB: fight completely OFFENSIVELY as whatever fictional method of explaination FC decides to use kicks in.

Down side? Get critted on by mob a LOT more as you defenesive skills go in the toilet.

FoB does not *techincally* increase chance to crit, what it does is pushes your agg slider over, even off the top end of the normal scale which in turn awards you more offensive value at the cost of defense. That can result in a few more crits of the few second that's the OFFENSIVE portion is active, from my own experience testing them that defensive down side last a lot longer ( like until the thing recycles ) then does the offensive up side.

Trying to compare FoB for to crit chance to a VE or LLTS is apple to coconuts, sorry doesn't work.

[Glarawyn]

Seems to me everyone who thinks the targeting scopes should not work for melee users thinks of the targeting scope as a passive piece of equipment. Just a bunch of lenses that help you see better.

But think about it. This is Rubi-Ka. The year is 29476, not 2002. Obviously the Targeting Scopes are more than just a collection of lenses.

For example, take the Yatamutchy Movement Predictor since it's description tells yo how it works. The Movement Predictor displays a ghost image for you to aim at, based on where it's computers thing you're target will be.

The Targeting Scope's simply state that they add a nice bonus to your range, and also adds a bonus to your chance of hitting a vital part when you shoot.

It does not say how it does this, but I assume it is similar to the Movement Predictor:

The Targeting Scope anilizes your target, looking for weakness to exploit. When it finds one, it higlights the area on your target. If you have enough skill, you try to strike this area with your melee weapon or you aim there with your gun.

The scopes are not passive devices that you simply wear and look through. They are a collection of sensors, computers, displays, and maybe even nano technology, that activaly aid you while fighting.

It's been said that the Flurry of Blows is the melee equivlent of the scopes. Definitly not ture. They do not give you a better chance at a critical hit. They increase your melee init, and push your addression over the edge. The result is you attack very fast for a period of time.

Since you are doing more attacks in the period of time the flurry is active, you have more chances to get a critical hit. With the scope, you have a better chance at getting a critical hit. Read that carefully, they're not the same thing.

Flurry of Blows does not up the chance of crit. It has no crit modifier. It adds to your Aggressive-Defensive and melee init. Upping those should up your attack rating and chance of a crit slightly if I understand the combat system correctly, but I'm guessing it's nowhere near +15% chance of a crit, or even a +8%.

[Letah]

Oh FoB does increase the critchance as FC once nerfed them to "a lower critical chance to hit".

And FoB lasted a whole fight if you used it right

About Flurry-time:
"It boosts Aggressive-Defensive and Close Combat (melee) Initiative for 20 seconds - plus 5 percent of a second per Quality Level of the booster"

So a QL180 flurry (usable, 200 is too high) would give 20+(180*0.05) = 29s of mad fast critting.

Now what does a ranged user get? ELLTS with looow init, 15% crit
Now what does a melee user get? ELLTS 15% and if used flurry still full speed and +24% (for QL200 as Ive been told) crit *and* a speed increase (aggdeff).

So penetalizing the ELLTS with more melee/phys init then ranged sounds like a good idea to me. Removing them is a too harsh nerf.

Tell me in truth, how would you react if ranged users would be able to use flurry? Imagine how a KIWD bow or the supernova/sunburst would do.

[______________Norton]

auno's database doesn't show it, but Jayde's database has more stats on items. Here is the entry for the QL200 Flurry of Blows. It does appear to give a critical hit bonus (20% at QL200) and a bonus to melee init (1000 at QL200), but not physical/ranged/nano init. I should also correct my earlier statement, it appears to work for 30s every 2.5 minutes (at best, but QL200 looks unusable). I've only known enforcers to use Flurry of Blows, but nothing in the requirements prevents other classes from using it. It would just be very inefficient for most other classes.

My opinion is that the same tools should be available to all classes and damage types (melee/ranged), except for those deemed to be profession specific or those combinations deemed to be overpowered. Ranged weapon users could be using FoB today in addition to the LLTS but I have yet to meet any who do so. That they do not indicates to me it is not considered to be a worthwhile expenditure of IPs. The LLTS + FoB combo must be used by at least a few enforcers, but I have never seen anyone claim this was overpowered.

What I am against is the notion that only ranged users should have crit bonuses. Or that LLTS is somehow equivalent to FoB, and therefore it would be fair to prevent melee users from getting any sort of bonus from an LLTS (or other scope).

[Kinkstaah]

I'd be happy if they made them ranged only, *if* they added 250 to every single melee' weapon's non crit damage.

Sticks at 616(350) Instead of 366(350)
Beam at 769(515) Instead of 519(515)
EoT at 880(350) (lol) Instead of 630(350)

Or more logically, take 150 from the crit and add it to the base damage, as us melee'rs arent supposed to actually hit you in the face with any melee weapon are we.

So thus 616(100) for stick, 769(265) and 880(100)
Thatd make everyone happy. And it'd leave melee weapons as being real hard hitting, sluggy weapons. Which they should probably be.

Otherwise, the Vision Enhancer is just that. I have no objection to some kind of scope that I wear in a HUD that lights up parts of my opponent so I know where to hit them.

Letah - Flurry lasts 30 seconds max. In this 30 seconds you (as you clearly have never used flurry) Probably get hurt *more* than the damage you inflict. It basically reduces your evades to almost 0 during that time.

And I wouldnt mind if someone using range could use flurry, because if I used mine they would be dead within 10 seconds...

My advice on the new scopes.... or the new NERF on scopes..
Is to let them have 8% crit at QL200, but make the init penalty incredibly reduced, maybe say -100.

[Toorqs]

Originally posted by Noer


They already do, LOL. And yes its retarded.

gee you must be scared of that 50% add to a 4m weapon

wow....you might get hit at 6m instead of 4m......you should be ashamed as a ranged/rooting prof being scared of a % add to a melee weapon.

Face it....its a Head Up Display....its mounted as part of headgear.....it doesnt ATTACH to anything but your head.....which everyone has. Who cares WHAT the description says. Its just an item.

[Ygritte]

hey noer, well this crit things a hard one, I'm a ma and I dont agree with our crit buffs adding to ranged weapons, but there are bows out there that are designed to be used by a ma. How do you suggest crit not working for our bows? also our crit for others line of nanos if your going to make our self ones fist only where do you see the crit others going? maybe scopes could go non ma profession as a fix against mas getting scope bonus. haha I can hear all mas reading this swearing at me anyhows, as i was saying you cant make our self crit fist only, as we have a green bow skill and I for one and many others have it maxed and use our bows all the time.

[Phione]

Letah doesn't seemed to realize how FoB really works...
BTW, I believe the Crit Chance is not as long as the init boost duration if I'm not mistaken...

[Letah]

Originally posted by Phione
Letah doesn't seemed to realize how FoB really works...
BTW, I believe the Crit Chance is not as long as the init boost duration if I'm not mistaken...

lol, no, check out the link above for the direct stats, you're mistaken I'm afraid. And I never said I didn't knew your more vulrnable, I think its a good trade-of (if it isnt whyt are you using it now then? )

[Cheetra]

Case in point:
FoB IS infact usable by ranged users.

I realize a lot of you don't know that, but guess what? It is.

Here's how it works:

FoB pushes the agg slider up, then fills in the needed Melee init to make that push up mean something.

HOWEVER: there are other means to make that init fill in with other weapons as well.

1) the easiest way is to have an init score for your choosen weapon in excess of the needed min fastest refire init needed on the weapon equal to the melee init bonus provided by the FoB in question.

OR

2) for ma's use a boosted stim that add an amount of physical init close to or equal to the melee boost of the FoB

pretty obvious most you have never played around with a FoB to determine the actual usability or effects.

BTW if you DO decide to use a FoB with a ranged weapon, set on high agg, you will see the difference, BUT your evades will in the toilet, so plan on being crited on. FoB simply does not compare to a LLTS in any way shape or form, and YES it IS usable with benefit by ranged weapon users also.

So before you going saying none melee's CAN'T use this item... do some research, no it's not AS beneficial, yes you do have to max your ranged init and implanting it is a good idea too to get the most out of a FoB but it's useable for you folks too

Works with bows too

now can we get back to the LLTS discussion?

[Phione]

Bump for Ignorant ppl to learn more about FoB.