Scopes and melee

[gnuman]

Discussing this wont get us any closer.

To me its stupid that a melee-user can use a targeting scope.

To you it sounds like the most natural thing in the world.

The description tells you can use them on close range, but that it isn't smart. I wonder why it isn't smart, but it sounds like it wasn't intended as melee-stuff but they forgot to add the disadvantage.

[assassimon]

Originally posted by Phione
lol... bad Cz moved my post
Again, I stand firm on my ground regarding this issue.
Enforcers are not just purely hack and slash barbarians (same goes for melee Advs). We are basicly Military Personel that's specialized in close range weaponary.

specialized in close range weaponary?

You running around with 2 swords or a big beam, I would call that hack and slash

[Snuble]

This Low Light Targeting Scope not only adds a nice bonus to your range, it also adds a bonus to your chance of hitting a vital part when you shoot. NOTE: Using this requires you to use more time for each shot, and thus increasing chances of getting a critical. It works at close quarters too, but is not recommended.

The suggestion of increasing melee inits penalty while decreasing ranged init penalty might settle this a bit.

[Phione]

We are not discussing the nature of Enforcer. However, I can tell you this: we do not have control over the look of the weapon, but that doesn't make us "blood thirst" beings.
Of course, if you want to call Jedis from StarWars as pure hack and slash, then I'll rest my case.
btw, we're talking about sneak attack going with the scope.

[kylee]

nerfs due to PVP are bad enough, now you want me ubernerfed for roleplaying reasons... come on noer @_@

how about we CHANGE THE NAME OF IT, so the hardcore roleplayers in this thread are not upset

[___________Nightwish]

This Low Light Targeting Scope not only adds a nice bonus to your range, it also adds a bonus to your chance of hitting a vital part when you SHOOOOT. NOTE: Using this requires you to use more time for each SHOT, and thus increasing chances of getting a critical. It works at close quarters too, but is not recommended.


I wanna see you shoot stuff with your uber beam, sword, fists or whatever rofl.

Yesterday I bought a "longrange" supportbeam for my enforcer to use a SCOPE to aim better while Shooting with it hahahahahahahaha

[Phione]

Originally posted by Snublefot
The suggestion of increasing melee inits penalty while decreasing ranged init penalty might settle this a bit.

On game-balancing point of view, no, that's not a good idea. On making sense or not point of view, no, it doesn't make sense, but hey, this is the 295th century .

[Dhurdahl]

Well if we ignore game balance and such things...

I think it's a flaw that allows scopes to affect melee/phys attacks....
Same goes with the MA fist line that changes damagetype of ranged weapons..... wrong in my eyes...


Personally I'd love if they changed the current scopes to having a -2000 phys/melee init penalty AND adding a new series of crit increasers for those inits

Overall it wouldn't change the crit chance but it would alow for a bit more accurate desc of the items..
Oh, it alows for a more fitting skill reqs for the new line also

[testest]

Old llts and new vision enhancers shouldn't work with melee fighting period. Instead they should add a new item, similar "values" as the vision enhancer.

I'll just give an example off the top of my head, a modified cloaking device. Goes in the same slot as Vision enhancer.

Adds % to crit
gives - to inits
adds sneak attack
uuuhh, and something to make up for the range increase, like it could add some concealment or evades(hard to see?)

That would bring us away from the entire "You need to have a gun to use a scope/VE thing".

Instead of making a small "nerf" on the old llts they should be changed into a completly new item, something useful, and unique. Like the good ole pioneer backpacks. You don't see people whining about them.

I suggest a wrist item, since the bracer nerf ppl are itching to find something to put there. To nerf something you need something of comparison to put it up against.

Edit: Oh, I forgot, if you go with any increase melee/phys init(especially melee init) draw back, it would only lead to an uber nerf of enforcers/adventurers(other melee classes).

Seems people are stuck on thinking about MA's

[Phione]

Buffo, your idea is by far one of the best

[Hollowbyte]

i think with the upcoming nerf of the LLTS Funcom should add some new weapons to the game, specifically, both melee and ranged that do not rely on crit chance to have a decent dmg output.

with a lowered crit % a lot of weapons will become useless, such as ithacas, raid-x, and a lot of melee weapons as well, especially the fast hitting 1hb and 1he.

the flurry of blows doesnt make up for the scope nerf, not even anywhere near.

[Snuble]

FoB is the melee crit device. They just forgot to put a cool down period on the LLTS Why they put a +15% to crit in the first place beats me...

[______________Norton]

While mounting a scope on a shovel is definitely silly, if we are using this as a measure of what to allow and what not to allow we should do it properly.

What kind of weapons actually allow someone to use a targeting scope, for the purposes of having very accurate, targeted aiming? The sniper rifle is the main one I can think of. Some pistols do as well, but the range on those is so limited the scopes would have limited use. Maybe bows. In most cases you spend a lot of time carefully aiming a single shot. The parallel in AO would be that only Rifle type weapons should have its crit chances enhanced by a targeting scope. Assault rifles, SMGs, Grenade Launchers, Heavy Weapons, etc. should suffer the same penalties as shovels.

This whole discussion on the semantics of "targeting scope" ignores the greater issues:

Should critical hit bonuses be available to all classes and damage types? Should it be limited to specialists?

Should such bonuses be equivalent across all classes and damage types?

[Arinia]

It Doesn't matter whether the idea of a scope on a stick makes sense or not.

Where's the logic that a ranged user can get a crit increase but a melee user can't?

If all melee weapons were significantly better than ranged, maybe. But that isn't the case. Not everyone melee uses a friggin' support beam. Not everyone melee is an MA. Non-beamer enforcers and melee adventurers would suffer, among a few. In fact, most melee weapons are worse than a nova flow, which can be scoped at 15% currently and still shoot 1/1 (or very close).

Too bad if it's unrealistic. Already, the Aim shot increase gives ranged users a bonus. It's stupid to say that scopes shouldn't affect melee at all.

BTW, comparing flurry to LLTS isn't realistic at all. Flurry can be used once every 2:30. LLTS works all the time.

[_______________Sware]

How about making it a superior TIM scope?

TIM scope %1 crit Range init 180
QL200 ELLTS might be %8 crit Range init 400 without init penalties ofcourse

Or sort out a similar thing. A scope should either be for good crits or easy shooting ala init.

[________Garzu-perman]

I remember Dai-Galean claimed that the LLTS did NOT work on melee weapons, and kept claiming it only worked on ranged weapons, while the rest of us in IRC told him the opposite and he finally belived us (not sure if he did, but he went very silent all of a sudden ). Thats a very long time ago, and its still just as it was, no fix, of course..

While this thread made me laugh, I totally agree with Noer, and have always thought it must be a HUGE bug, and personally I have even considered it an exploit to use a LLTS together with a melee weapon. Taking advantage of LLTS when using a melee weapon must be an exploit.

Is it still possible to use Yatamutchi MP and get long range with melee weapons?

Can an enf still get 20+ range with a beam?

I am not so sure about MAs, was/is it possible to get long range for MA attacks with the help of LLTS + Yata MP?

[Letah]

Even the description says *shoot* and Cz thought ranged only, pretty clear what funcom thinks no?

Every gun has use of a scope, I for sure would love a red laserlight on my handgun to know my aim is correct no? So only making it rifles isnt true, in reallife aspect (and I know for sure assault rifles do have scopes)

Melee has flurry, ranged has scopes, fair deal to me, as ranged people cannot use flurry.

[Phione]

If today they gave Melee users a fast, low damage but high crit weapon, plus decent alpha (such as the Ithaca) + exactly the same modifier for Flurry as Scopes, then no, I won't be saying much.
However, that's not the case
And to Letah: Read what Arinia said :P

[______________Norton]

Originally posted by Letah
Even the description says *shoot* and Cz thought ranged only, pretty clear what funcom thinks no?

Every gun has use of a scope, I for sure would love a red laserlight on my handgun to know my aim is correct no? So only making it rifles isnt true, in reallife aspect (and I know for sure assault rifles do have scopes)

Melee has flurry, ranged has scopes, fair deal to me, as ranged people cannot use flurry.

Sigh... missing the big picture. But fine, if you want to argue this line:

ELLTS: This Low Light Targeting Scope not only adds a nice bonus to your range, it also adds a bonus to your chance of hitting a vital part when you shoot. NOTE: Using this requires you to use more time for each shot, and thus increasing chances of getting a critical. It works at close quarters too, but is not recommended.

Yes, the description does say "shoot". It also says it works at close quarters. Now, I take this to mean that it is also meant to work for melee attacks. If that's not what it means, then it must mean that for those attacks it does work for (ranged attacks) there has to be a downside to using it in close quarters. Should we lobby Funcom to put something like this in, given that it's "pretty clear" what they meant?

Definition of the word scope: an instrument (as a telescope or radarscope) for viewing. Since we're being pedantic, you'll note that a red laser light is not the same as a scope. In either case, how one could justify using any sort of fine-grained targeting with shotguns is beyond me.

But it's alright, since melee classes have flurry of blows. So in the interest of making everything equal, you shouldn't mind if we made your scope work the same way. 15 seconds of crit every 2.5 minutes.

[Phione]

hehe Norton, love that one you just said