Nerfing Low Light Targeting Scope

[Val]

here's a suggestion:

ql 200

critical increase +10% (still a bit higher than a VE to keep oldtimers happy)
Aimed Shot +350
Fling Shot +100
Full Auto +100
Burst +100
rnged init -400
melee init -1000
phys init -1000
weopon range 45
add all offense 20 ( still less than soldier buff so they can't complain)


seems like alot but not really just makes it more geared toward ranged weopon classes but probably still not worth the old crit increase

[_____________Condaan]

Hoops, I repect ya and all, but if they remove MA crit buffs, can I get a GA equivalent instead? Class defining nanos...true ours is a hella lot easier to get, but if I can't crit anymore, maybe I can be more of an 'elusive target' than our friendly neighborhood fixers?

Nerfing is bad. MAs are balanced, Advs and Fixers are balanced. Most classes are close to balanced. Engies need some love. A few other professions need a little love and some stuff to make them more interesting/fun to play.

I just paid 150m for a 13% scope yesterday. Will I be pissed to lose 150m? Not really, cash is easy to make in this game. I will be upset, however, if FC takes the easy way out on this item. I will be upset if they go back and nerf MA Critical Buffs.

As long as they are reasonable about the change implented, most folks will be placated.

Folks whining about MA damage with shotties or ARs should remember a few things:
1) If you are pvping, their Atk rating will be low, due to blue/dark blue skills. As long as you have decent evades, they won't hit you all that much, let alone crit all the time.
2) If you are PvM, doesn't having someone deal a bit more damage over time HELP you get exp? Anyway, in my travels, I've never seen a shotty/AR MA in PVM.

Anyhow, nice to see Constructive Criticism on the boards here...oh wait, there isn't much of that. Nice whines people, maybe we can nerf everyone, get rid of all buffs and skills, and just go play whackamole-online.

Get a grip people.
Condaan

[Bothead]

This makes me so sad, I just dumped lots of lvls worth of IP to get Weapon Smithing, Electical Engineering, Aimed Shot and Fling Shot almost high enough to equip a Snakemaster, and for what? Cz, I want a reason for this nerf, along with everyone else... how is it imbalancing?

I now will have a gimped character at lvl 115 when the nerf hits - yes that's 4 skills that need IPR. You don't have to be bright to figure this will have a long term impact on my char, as the necessary IPR points for later levels will not be available. For instance, I won't be able to turn my char into a tradeskill specialist, when the missions inevitably get too boring and leveling slows down. Neither do I have free IP to raise Perception sufficiently to equip a ql 250 Vision Enhancer to compensate, I am beginning to feel broken already :/

My suggestions to alleviate the pain, as I have no doubt the nerf will happen regardless and despite of anything posted by the players:

1. Reimburse "wasted" IP in WS, EE, + ALL raised weapon skills your char might have. That is, give every char one IPR point extra, for every weapon skills that has received a certain amount of IP. This would be available for a limited time.

or: Since the above is hard to implement, why not arrange another full IPR per char, since the effects of the nerf and wepaon skill choices will have a massive impact on character design. Many players using ranged weapons will have to switch weapons and implants after the nerf, if the fast, low regular damage weapons are indeed going to be rendered useless without a decent crit chance to compensate.

2. As I do take for granted the new version of LLTS will be inferior or equal to VE in terms of actual damage output over time, there is a substantial amount of players who will feel cheated for paying 100-300mill for a lost advantage in PvM and PvP. Therefore, please give players the option to sell LLTS to vendors for 1mill per QL (I know someone already said this, but I happen to agree). I know this will generate alot of ingame credits, but this is about keeping players happy, imho. You (FC) stated earlier the LLTS would remain in the game, and the nerf is going to make alot of people unhappy. The economy is broken anyway, as there are no major money sinks to prevent the insane inflation we are seeing.

3. Remove the init penalty from the LLTS.

4. Add a *decent* Fling Shot and Burst bonus (+300 for ql 200 ELLTS?) and remove the night vision effect.

5. Add an AGGDEF boost (similar to Shadow Rift of the Eagle) proportionate to the QL of scope.

6. And most importantly, to prevent future item nerfs: Nerf the whiners!!! They are ruining the game for old timers who must keep adapting to new rules. Old chars that constantly have to adapt to new rules will inevitably become broken chars, unless more IPR points are given to us. This is a fact you cannot dispute!

Sorry for the harsh tone of this, but I am writing this in an aggravated state of mind, caused by the prospect of my wasted efforts playing my highest lvl char to equip specifically a scope-dependent weapon (ELLTS 11%+ and Ithaca Ki-8 Snakemaster). I sincerely would like some form of explanation as to why exactly the nerf is necessary - are we levelling too fast, or are people whining about dying in PvP? Or both? I don't have time, or desire, to reroll my chars every time a nerf hits them, but one can only wonder if this isn't exacly what Funcom intends... more rerollers = more money over time.... but only if players suck it down and keep taking the punishment. /Me wonders since no explanation has been offered yet in this thread.


(Edited for emotional content and more details)

[mopede99]

1.) If it is already suggest i don't know. Didn't bother to read all pages with whine.


2.) My Suggestion:

- Reduce the Init Values .. as in -800 (ql 200) to -400-600 somewhere. Taking in mind that recharge will be fixed and that will make all fire slower that use any kind of scope.
There were post ealier about that one but i think that Targeting scopes should not be as good for close combat as for ranged. So maybe not lower the inits for Phys Init and melee init or make the scopes not affect close combat at all.

- Make it not useable by ma's. Cause atm they got silly crit chances with a 15% scope.. and it won't change with reduced by 7% max crit on scopes.

- Maybe remove the green glow?

- Add a attack rating bonus at ql 200 .. 200 points maybe

- Increase the range bonus on it.

- Add a bonus to all special ranged weapon skills.. such as FA, burst, fling as u would be able to hit better with them too.

3.) Pls Cz answer to this question (in a new thread or so)
How are we supposed to kill the new bosses/mobs with reduced crit chances. Seeing that i only can hurt a Primus Mob at the old aces camp in EFP only with crits. And have a very high miss rate at legshopper in Varmint Woods.

[Johnathgalt]

The nerf is too brutal.

Why not: (1) put the ql 400 VE in game (make drop rare but not tara rare); (2) add some sort of nano init penalty to both llts’s and all VE’s and (3) limit (not prevent) ability to stack self only crit buffs with crit scopes (e.g. only get get 50% of crit scope mod when running UVC).

Just my thoughts.

[______________Kumiyo]

Thank you Funcom for putting the final nail on my engi's coffin!!!!! Only thing that made my engi viable was havinga qly 199 ithica with a 8% llts scope, great now i can hit for 30 everytime, not to mention how bad the pathing is....

If Funcom wants attention fix shet not nerf us even more. Why must you keep upseting your customer base?

Great job pvp whinners, sure as heck wasn't npc mobs complaing about llts scopes!

[Zed Dabucho]

here is my idea

ql 200 scope

10% crit
+350 to aim shot
+200 to fling
+200 burst
+200 full auto
+180 ranged init (or the same as the T.I.M scope)
-2000 melee init (this will make this scope a range only scope.)
-2000 phys init (this will nerf the MA from using the scope.)
weopon range 45

if this scope is for range only and you guys are pissed about MA being over powered then do this. the scope will still be worth something and some people will be happy.

then make a tool for melee person. that is more setup for them. sense it is only far they get a good tool to use to. maybe make it a enf only tool or ma only tool. just a little something to help out the people that funcom jacked over.

just my 2 cents

[Krokus]

Originally posted by Cz



Oh, and your post got edited this time, simply because you made the comment on it (that language used is not appreciated, and some of it was off-topic).

I see that you edited your own reply to include "off topic"

the heavy handed moderating done to that post was in no way related to "Language" not a single word there i wouldn't want my 10 year old daughter to hear.

You removed: (to the best of my memory)

"Bad rating on your own patch poll not good enough? shooting for Atrocious?" !

and:

Someone at Funcom needs to get a mail order business degree, if they intend on running this as a business...

there was more, but alas i have been awake too long to remember

were looking at the possibility of funcom going totally bankrupt due to not too well thought out decisions made by a person or persons who obviously have no grasp of business :/

as it relates to yet another nerf, this is indeed on topic (especially in being this is now opened to discussions)

I am 32 years old, and managed a business of some size for 12 years...there is this thing in business called the repeat customer...that customer keeps coming back because he likes the service and or product he gets from that business....walk in business that never comes back, has little or no impact on cash flow...over time, for a business to last, it must have not just customers, but customers that return, day after day, month after month, to survive...nowhere is that more important, than in the "service" class businesses....this game rates as one..

your "repeat customers" in this case, are the old school, high level characters...noobs come and go...some of these stay on to become long term "repeat customers" and some take one look at the learning curve, and go to a dumbed down game like AC2 will be...keeping the paying players, especially when floundering, is crutial..(critical even lol) when in a transitional phase as Funcom is going through now.

heavy handed moderating, when no vulgarity, profanity, or even insults (didnt call anyone a 'tard moron etc) directed at you personally, or at any one person is probably not helping your already not quite "first rate" customer service score.

my post was neither a rant, nor a rave, nor even me blowing off steam, it was dead on target..sadly, if anything, you proved me right :/ not the first best choice i can think of in your position

Further, sending an e-mail to clear up "heavy handed" (i use that term because a certain political party from 1940's germany who many many people associate with "heavy handed moderaters" might be to blame for a single word edit you made to my post, bu t not to the extent of your edits) will solve nothing....when you have something to say, think it through, and post it please for all to see, as trying to hush up censorship only proves my point...had i called someone a vulgar name, or used any words that wouldnt be allowed on a childrens show, it would be different..."Language" did not explain the roughly half of my post that disappeared..and your editing your reply to include off topic, was too little too late, it was an afterthought, (buttcovering?) and not much appreciated by myself, and the dozen or so who messaged me about it in game..

----------------------------------------------------------------------

with that done, and knowing that the heavy hand may fall upon my post yet again, as happenes indescriminately on this forum again and again (note that was not my giving you permission to heavily edit, or delete this non offensive post) i will get back on target with another suggestion i had refering to the intended topic of this thread, before the heavy handedness forced me off topic:

add all offenses bonus on llts equal to QL, on all scopes 8%...
this will not make one bit of difference to crits, as add all offenses bonus (such as the token board grants) only affects your chance to hit...it would have to be massive to make them worthwhile..

thus a scope which is ql 250, 15% crit, would become 8%, add all offenses 250....or a QL 38 3% would remain unchanged....it is essential that they are not changed as the bracers were...only reduce the crit chance on those above 8% and reduce it only to 8% and add the mentioned bonus....scopes below or at 8% SHOULD remain unchanged....otherwise there will be a lot of 1% scopes out there, and you will hear the outcry from all the way across the ocean. not good for business and certainly not good for the folks who spent a fortune on the scopes they have...my suggestion is not overpowered in any way, it neither increases damage nor does it increase critical hits...but it does greatly increase chance to hit...it is still up to the player to do the damage without being over powered damage wise...its a thought

removing the nano init nerfing on the VE's would not be a bad idea either, as it serves little point, you cant crit with a nano

[vorteks]

may be if inits did actually accelerate weapons, people would care about getting those lower.

Make inits worth the investment in these skills

[______________Icemaa]

Its always sad to see soo many people whine and complain about nerfing, and how FC is out there to screw you! This thread was started in means of trying to be constructive, but alas after 7 pages of people whining, I had to skip to the end as I have seen only a few people actually say anything constructive.

To start off, for all you people that are hell-bent on complaining. I know that you all care about this game, thats why you are passionate about speeking up. Providing negative feedback doesnt help now, does it. ;P If you want leave because things are soooo terrible, please do, I'd rather not hear it. Go, shoo.

Look at things from a broad perspective. FC is doing there best to make things balanced. For every change that FC makes to the game, things get better and better. After a year of being here, I still love this game, how its evolved, and where its going. FC has made a lot of balance changes in a whole that makes things more balanced. They have a tough job to do, its hard to balance a game designed on merging PvM and PvP, and one as complex as this. Even still we have a lot of imbalances, but alas always working towards something better. Just be glad that they do make changes.

Lower crit percentages all around will make things more balanced imho. Looking at critical hits from game perspective, they should be something special, and with the amount of critical strikes we get with these scopes, it devalues the uniqueness of what a critical hit is.

If we never had these wonderful critical hit tools to aid us, we wouldnt be complaining about NERF, things might actually be a challenge for once. Why do you want an easy ride, eh? I actually welcome challenge, and am tired of things being too easy.

Now to actually get into some positive feedback. By reducing crit percentages on the LLTS, the following sets of bonuses would be worthwhile.

1) Reduced ranged init modifier. Making this more worthwhile to ranged users. Helps keeping this from making MA's from having too high a crit percentage.
2) Xp % bonus. Only great for someone that is lower level. Most of us that have these don't need the xp % bonus. Really sort of worthless to us, unless you raise the level cap.. oi!~
3) Increased DMS.
4) Increased Evades.
5) Increased Ranged Init.
6) Increased AMS

Really, the only things that will make a NERF of the item worthwhile over a VE, and make it still valuable, is an increase to our attack skills. Thats it, everything else is just a "little" worthless to us.

Anyways, these my thoughts on it, hope it helps Cz. Best wishes, and I hope the changes make things better.

[________________Stol]

This is all bad, dont do it!!!

ql400 ve's should be dropable
or at least make then drop to ql300-350 so people can get new scopes with higher critmod.

if you intend to have special attack recharge adjusted by the ranged init then max ql scopes wont be so overpowering with that -800 init hit.

Reapeat after me!
Do not nerf!

None of my characters use a llts higher than +3 crit increase i believe, but i do have some higher than that.. and i would hate to see them turned into nothing (which is what they will become regardless of how you try to patch this up if you nerf them)


The solution is simple!
Make higher ql Vision Enhancers drop in the game!!!
At least it makes professions with green perception able to use higher crit scopes than others because they can get more perception!
as it is now any profession can use the ql250 VE.

Reward professions with green perception with the abilty to use higher VE's!

[Alphafemale]

OMG is all i have to say.

I almost quit AO. Had to take a break for almost 3 months, so i can relax about all the crap Funcom was trowing in. 3 days ago i returned to play my lvl 160 soldier. Thought, well all is not lost, I'll just spend all my IP in EE and WS (Keep in mind that I missed IPR) instead of mg/smg so i can equip my 13% ELLTS and my Nova/flash will still be good weapons so i can get back into AO.

And now this crap! I'm soooo tempted to just burn AO CD and delete it off my comp right now. but seeing how many people here had good suggestion about not nerf-killing LLTS, i'll give it to the patch.

Reason you fools are nerfing LLTS is because of overcritted MAs. geez, just make LLTS Range ONLY. THEN, maybe UVC and the rest, MALEE ONLY, so they cant stack UVC with LLTS,a nd problem solved. is it really that complicated to do that. and thats end of whiners when it comes to PvP.

and concerning other whiners that say things like "they have an advantage cuz they have LLTS and i dont", well obviously, you did NOT out in as much hard work to aquire LLST or the items needed to get one, so why are you crying now. r maybe you played for the last 2 months, and feel like you not a newbie anymroe, but there are some of us that palyed since the day 1, and rightfully deserve to have a 13-15% LLTS!

SUGGESTION HERE:::::
Make LLTS Range ONLY and make MA crit buffs like UVC MALEE ONLY and PvP problem solved.

Needless to say if you read my whole post is that nerfing LLTS will render my soldier a gimp and i wouldnt wanan play a gimp after all the hours i've invested. and if i cant play my character, i have no need of AO subscription. gg Fun(not)com

[______________Thoram]

Originally posted by Cz

I got suggested in IRC that if we're going to nerf the scopes, make them available in-game again. What's everybody's thoughts on that?

Why put them back in the game? You obviosly had a reason to remove them, and making those that people had special in some way, making them unique.

Now you are contemplating putting them back? Why remove them in the first place?

Sure put them back, but DON'T let that be the only change to it.

There should be some reward for us that have spend IP on the skills needed to use one. The extra IPR points is a good thing, But please, make it so we can use the IPR without having to remove all imps, armor, rings, weapons and whatever, seeing that you are changing something that is working.

My suggestion to the LLTS?

Add them to the game, lower the RI decrease, make them perception reqs, give 2 free IPR to all, no matter if they have the LLTS or not, makes it easier for you I think.

And DONT change things that work, just coz they are different. If you want to change something. remove those lame weapons that takes 5-6 skills and do crap damage

[____________Yeniferr]

This is a joke. Why are you nerfing these again? Trying to make it fair for noobs? Well, too bad noobs don't need to crit on their Rookie mobs. But at high lvls, I'm sorry, we need that crit so we can live.
I'm a 200 Crat. I can't do anything w/o my scope. I can't PvP even with scope and thats all I have to do at 200 anymore. I spent time gathering bracers when I got to 200. But, yea, nerf those too.

I coudln't solo ql 200 missions w/the un-nerfed bracers. Then you nerf them and I still can't solo them? Only way I can ever really solo most vets is b/c of my crit scope. Now, you're nerfing the LLTS, which is the only weapon I have against mobs now since they are countering most of my nukes and my droid attk rating is around 600 and don't hit anything. Not all professions can heal here, so we are very dependent on our crits, and all other ranged professions. You trying to make this game all Martial Artists?

People have been using these scopes to trade other items in this game. You're killing the enconomy in this game. Hahaha, bonuses to keep them valuable? What kind of bonuses can anyone come up with to keep it valuable? How about not nerfing them?

I think you should look at the high lvl end of this game, not the low lvl. People work hard to get your items and then you just nerf them, what kind of game is that? You have no high lvl content in this game. We have to kill RM's and Ace's which is impossible with the HP you give them. How bout you fix that and get more content than nerfing items that people need dearly. Trying to destroy the very game you created?

[Krokus]

it is currently posible, with the tech that exists, to make llts and ellts only function with ranged init..

as an example i offer up the BBI Faithful, which is bugged to hell, and uses melee init...it can be parried (init TYPE does a lot more than folks realize)

the schuyler bow uses melee init (also busted, supposed to use Physical init)

Simply, as you nerfed the crap out of agents in 14.2 (removal of the high end MA crit buffs AND making high end crit buffs self only) you could further extend that nerf (as there is nothing left to hurt along those lines) by making MA crit buffs only work with weapons that use melee/physical init....

AND...

Make llts-ellts only add crit to weapons that use ranged init

I use a llts 3% because it doesnt gank my nano init...nano init, for those who dont know, is broken, it doesnt affect recharge (this is my opinion, its been that way since i started in june? or so)...losing nano init on a casting class (char in question is an advent) is mighty rough....keep in mind that save for the nano init penalty, all scopes are equal till you hit the QL 250 VE, which has NO nano init penalty....this penalty should be removed from all VE's as well, it serves little purpose.

also i would say that NO changes should be made to ANY llts below 8% they are fine the way they are....but if you simply MUST nerf them, add the "add all offenses" bonus i spoke of in a different post, equal to the QL of the scope...again, this has NO effect on crits, OR min/max damage, ONLY on chance to hit, which would be a small boon on high diff missions/outdoor camps...it wouldnt ensure that you hit, but would greatly reduce the chance of evade from mob...and it is throwing a really tiny bone to those of us who shelled out piles of credits only to get shanked by a decision made in a dark corner of an unheardof office by someone who doesnt know us...adding a nano init BONUS would also be nice.....and fixing nano init to effect recharge would buff everyone lol..right..thats happening

[gnuman]

Originally posted by Khiro
And DONT change things that work, just coz they are different. If you want to change something. remove those lame weapons that takes 5-6 skills and do crap damage

hehe that is so true.

Like

This massive assault axe strikes more than just fear into the hearts of the opponents. Its elegant design and perfect balance guarantees unmatched mobility and comfort. Originally it was intended for riot control.

http://auno.org/ao/db.php?cmd=view&id=122082&t=ag

yeah, woohoo its really a scary weapon. Fear is really in my heart if I see someone. Put your people on the countless of useless stuff dropping in game instead of changing stuff that works.

[_________LucidTrance]

Ive never posted this before.
and it sounds lame. but
im Quiting AO if this nerf goes through
Im a Soldier primary so as you can imagine ive seen my fair share of rediculously unnesissary nerfs and changes.
but this is too much.. no point in playing if my class becomes useless. and i refuse to make an MA which will become the only viable sollution to this nerf.

to thoes that know me your the best people out there
ill miss you all.

*fingers crossed*

Lucid Out

[aiwass777]

Originally posted by Kumiyo
Thank you Funcom for putting the final nail on my engi's coffin!!!!! Only thing that made my engi viable was havinga qly 199 ithica with a 8% llts scope, great now i can hit for 30 everytime, not to mention how bad the pathing is....

If Funcom wants attention fix shet not nerf us even more. Why must you keep upseting your customer base?

Great job pvp whinners, sure as heck wasn't npc mobs complaing about llts scopes!

+8 LLTS? You can get a +8 vision enhancer...

[______________Kumiyo]

CZ i suggest you make and annoucement in-game before people start getting rid of their llt's to try to recoup some losses....

[Aqua]

Originally posted by Cz

Then give me a suggestion for a change to the old scope, so you wouldn't want to switch to a new one.

well tell me how much your gonna nerf it first. How can I make any kinda educated suggestion when you pulled the vale of vague down around me.

If you do nerf them will they once again be available in the game.

~aqua