Be The Difference

[Argulace]

Originally posted by Kenidy/Isgrimnur
I read this someplace

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"

IMO hyprocrites are what ya are. Title Farmers might "cheat" but so do you when that mob in your mission isn't hitting back and you are still shooting it. You know there are many instances in the game where something you have done could be a "cheat".

I also read this someplace:

"Sin is Sin, like black is black"

So cheating is cheating. Be it something you might think small, or big.

Please keep the "holier than thou" attitude away from the forums.

Caol owned at pvp, he went from Freshman to Neo in like under 2 weeks. Calling people like him cheaters, or people who don't deserve the respect of other pvpers is again wrong.
I don't know about the others, but I do know a few of the "farmers" that were suspended did something to make a point. I get offended that you group all people together.

Also read my post in the sticky thread. Technically this is NOT an exploit, IE using game mechanics to gain an unfair advantage with your character. Titles have NO advantage, and are meaningless. If you wish to discuss this more I can show you just how meaningless they are.

With all due respect...

I find your comments out of place and irrelivant to this topic. This isn't about those who would defend farmers or try to make excuses for them, putting words in their mouths or whatever, its about stopping it.

I understand what your trying to say, I just don't agree with you. On.. well, on everything you said pretty much.

On this side of the fence there are non exploiters. See diagram.

[Valid Title Holders]<-->[not]

Note that in between the area of Valid Title Holders and not, there is nothing labled gray area.

Once again, cheating is cheating. Playing any game on the internet, people accept this. Even the cheaters.

They know the risk they take when they cheat, all we are doing is making sure that those worries they have about being banned/suspended, are not in vain.

We are calling the bluff and it seems FunCom is also.

Arg

[Warlock]

At the risk of sounding like a stick in the mud....

While _in principle_ this is a good idea, its still a 'player witch hunt', it just takes place in game and not on the forum (which I agree is a much better place for it).

However this could end up as borderline player harrasment with grief petitioning and false petitioning

Not that I care, I just thought I'd point it out

[Isgrimnur]

Arg cheating is cheating. Be it a so called farmer, or the dude who lets the monster NOT hit back. ITs all the same. Your in the situation of calling the kettle black. Starting a witch hunt does make many into hyprocrites, and thats what my post is al about.

Someone made an excellent post: people with titles are pretty much farmers cause they zone whenever there is risk. So um if they get 9/10 kills and 1/10 killed by lag or whatever, um sounds like farming to me, just in a different sort of way.

IMO respect is never given to people with titles. And I think that is pure fact. Respect is given to those who try damn hard at pvp and bring some fun to 2ho/mmd/camelot. Most of those who pvp advently don't have high titles as they die alot. Yet they still have high respect from the pvp community.

I hope those players who are on a witch hunt think before they speak. I still believe farming is not an exploit, as it doesn't give you any benefit...your argument of respect is invalid.

I don't farm, never have farmed. In fact I think the pvp system is so screwed I won't pvp unless it is with guildies in some event, like camelot. I used to pvp a lot with my agent but again, he died sooo much...ALPHA anyone? so he is still Freshman. I am just sticking up for the farmers cause their point of how screwed the pvp system is something FC needed to realize.

Last point: when something in RL goes amiss, we protest it, now some of those protesters might get put in jail (suspended) but they are never executed for protesting (banned). Why is this a case of that?

[____________Infamine]

Kenidy if you ever played CS at very high level (thats when you win money and computers and such things) you'll know that people that cheats on internet are pathetic and just ruin everybody else fun.
This is a game where people pay to have fun, not to see their fun being ruined by player X.
Going back to what i meant, some people that had very good reputation on CS, took dives whenever they dare coming to a high level LAN, why ? Because they used so many pathetic cheats at home they couldnt even make one single hs when not on their computers.

[Argulace]

Originally posted by Kenidy/Isgrimnur
Arg cheating is cheating. Be it a so called farmer, or the dude who lets the monster NOT hit back. ITs all the same. Your in the situation of calling the kettle black. Starting a witch hunt does make many into hyprocrites, and thats what my post is al about.

Someone made an excellent post: people with titles are pretty much farmers cause they zone whenever there is risk. So um if they get 9/10 kills and 1/10 killed by lag or whatever, um sounds like farming to me, just in a different sort of way.

IMO respect is never given to people with titles. And I think that is pure fact. Respect is given to those who try damn hard at pvp and bring some fun to 2ho/mmd/camelot. Most of those who pvp advently don't have high titles as they die alot. Yet they still have high respect from the pvp community.

I hope those players who are on a witch hunt think before they speak. I still believe farming is not an exploit, as it doesn't give you any benefit...your argument of respect is invalid.

I don't farm, never have farmed. In fact I think the pvp system is so screwed I won't pvp unless it is with guildies in some event, like camelot. I used to pvp a lot with my agent but again, he died sooo much...ALPHA anyone? so he is still Freshman. I am just sticking up for the farmers cause their point of how screwed the pvp system is something FC needed to realize.

Last point: when something in RL goes amiss, we protest it, now some of those protesters might get put in jail (suspended) but they are never executed for protesting (banned). Why is this a case of that?

I'm sorry, but just so we are clear... Are you calling me a cheater cause a mob might miss me? LOL... I hope not.

Your saying i'm the "pot calling the kettle black", i'd like you to explain exactly what your talking about and what your basis for that accusation is.

Your saying farming isnt exploiting basically and further your pretty much saying its ok and that the respect issue isnt there.

If you were a professional boxer and you got KO'd 30 times on your road to gaining the middle weight champion of a certain region, would you not be a bit upset to find out that some other boxer bought his title from funds his family willed to him?

I fail to see how confusing this issue is and I further fail to see how your clouded argument is relivant to the facts.

I'm very interested in this debate, please continue.

[____________Psiraven]

Isgrimnur, there are two kinds of "exploits" in this game.

1) There are "exploits" that you have to actively search out and find. Then you have to expend *effort* in order to benefit from them (credit and item duping, title farming..etc..).

2) And then there are the "exploits" that leap out of the game because its buggy, and manage to find every player without them even trying (i.e. mobs humping walls).

I think ALL of us have run into the occasional mission/outdoor mob who decided to hump a wall, a tree or a fence rather than attack the team. Personally, I'm not going to wring my hands in worry and say "Hey, team, attacking this mob is wrong, lets back off and allow it to hit us, before we kill it."

Now if a player found a way to do it consistently with a mob at some location, then its an exploit #1 and should be reported.

Hey, I personally think its a mob exploit that MY PETS are humping walls and the MOBS are attacking ME...but whatever.

No, we're going to kill the wall-humping mob (exploit type #2) and move on and the next 10 mobs will be acting perfectly fine.

[Isgrimnur]

I think everyone cheated in this game at one point in time. I know mobs cheat: IE going through walls and some of ya think, hey if the mob aint hitting me back cool. Thats still cheating in the technical sense of the word.

Now to titles. Titles are not the basis of respect, if you think that you are somehow missing something in pvp. I see many apprentice lvl people who are much more respected than many novices/neos. Why? Cause they got balls and don't care about losing, they get in there and fight, and win some/lose some. Those novice/neo's who are so scared to lose their title, zone/evac etc and will only fight if they have 5 to 1 odds. That doesnt give respect in my books.

Titles DONT GIVE YOU ANY ADVANTAGE in the game. How can I spell that out for you clearly. Doesnt give you even the respect you seem to think it does. Why? Because of the fact you have 3 typers of pvper: 1 farmer, just wants title, no skills. 2. pvper who doesnt care about title, just wants to kill ppl and do something besides xp. 3. pvper who only cares about title and will zone, evac etc when they cant gank someone for a title.

NOTE: ganking is pretty close to farming IMO. Why? because the ganker isn't taking ANY risk to gain what they got, and after all that is what your complaining about. Farmers have no risk either.

Now lets talk about the flaws in this system. They are so numerous, that titles have no meaning. I agree with farmers as they are the people who got the devs thinking "how can we change this". Whenever something goes TOO FAR, then FC notices, until then they never blinked when members of storm were farming all the time. (maybe GM in that guild)

I am just of the mind, farming IS NOT cheating as it is meaningless. Titles are meaningless. IF you think I am wrong when I say respect is given to those who earn it, title or not, please tell me. The AO page doesnt give teh persons title when you look them, or I would post some people who pvp a lot but don't have uber titles, yet are respected within that community.

[__________THEDEACON!]

Originally posted by besheba
1) they are preceived to be cool when the truth is the only time u hear from them is when they need somthing in return

That struck a chord with me for a much different reason and please allow me to go off subject for a sec. As a metaphysicist, I have hundreds of "friends" that I dont hear from until they need an implants made, or a buff.

Soon as someone says "hello" to me, I know they only want my services. Sure, they can shoot the s**t for ten minutes, but I know the end result is they want a buff, they want my help killing a unique or they want implants. Got to the point where i had to assume that 90% of rubi ka was treating me like a sucker, so I rolled a new main.
/rant off

Onto the pvp 'sploiters. the title system, while definitely cool in concept just will not ever work, because we have to assume people are going to be honest and not exploit the system. This will never happen, as people are fundamentally crooked. There's been alot of suggestions on how to fix the problem, which are dang good ones too. Only problem is, if funcom implements them, everyone will hate the change, curse them out and threaten to quit, like folks do anytime funcom implements or changes anything that folks ask for. But there's a few suggestions I LOVE.

no pvp points for same side kills. YEAH!
non pvp points in the arena. This makes sense, because the arena is a 'training' ground. this would also cut down on the number of arena ganks. From a roleplay perspective, you should be getting points from killing the enemy in the heat of battle, not from knocking around your guildmate. The option should be there to pvp for fun without the risk of losing your title.
I'd like to expand on that last one by saying that we should be allowed to have private duels, sort of like in jedi knight 2's deathmatch, where when you agree to a duel, nobody else can attack you. I'd even like an option where two people or 2 teams of people could make their own private arena, sort of like generating a mission, where nobody can enter. this would also cut down on lag tremendously. I cant count the number of times ive lost a match because i couldnt cast through a 2000 ping.

I'd also like to be able to place bets on pvp matches through a betting machine, but this won't happen because many folks that play AO are under 18 and gambling may not be legal for them (oddly enough, even virtual gambling is illegal in many places)

Finally, a 'cleansing zone' where all outside buffs fall off. as thedeacon, i got so sick of people accusing me of having outside buffs. Not all MPs suck butt in pvp and yes, it's possible for an mp to have nearly 1100 run speed :P

All these things would make the 'sploiters reduced in numbers, would give incentive for team pvp, and give the option to pvp just for fun. But since we're over a year into the game, it would be bad to implement this, because folks are used to the way things are. Funcom made ALOT of mistakes their first year into AO, but we all got used to them and developed a comfort level with them. Anything that gets changed, even if it's really for the better, gets them so many flames I feel sorry for them.

But I have to give props to this thread (especially argulace), as it's been one of the most constructive threads I've read in a long time. Maybe if we kept up like this and showed funcom a bit of respect, things would get changed.

Months ago (I want to say January) there was a big meeting in borealis regarding the state of the martial artists and how to improve them. I joined the chat (with my first martial artist, lowball, not the one im playing now) and folks kept it civilized and orderly and whattaya know, the MA profession got fixed (almost too well). Maybe we could get a meeting like this set up with the developers and present them with some pvp suggestions, maybe even vote on it?

Pvp is fun, but the current title system absolutely sucks and is wide open for exploiters. Theres too many confliciting suggestions on how to fix it though, so maybe we can all put our heads together and come up with something?

[Compromise]

pat you agree yet you did it yourself with johi? sounds common rofl

[Razzitazz]

I think its kind of funny when someone brings up a very good thread about cheating, exploits, etc. Then someone else starts saying that we are cheating to the mobs.

Too funny