Remove "Profession Only" requirements from Weapons

[mrpres1dent]

Originally posted by Bionitrous
The problem with your argument Flow is you call the Agent 'the Rifle class'. That is what this thread is about. We don't begrudge the Adventurers their help they got. It was just done the wrong way. Or more accurately, the only way FunCom was able to do it considering they refuse to address the relative worthlessness of Attack Rating as compared to item Quality Level.

The Qlvl system is teh devil. The guy who implemented the Qlvl system ought to be taken out back of FunCom's offices and shot.

I am still unclear what is incorrect with calling the Agent the "rifle class". They have a green skill in that, do they not?

Your generalization of the classes indicates that if you were writing a guide to making an Enforcer, per se, you would tell your readers that it is okay to use Pistols or Assault Rifle because this is a skill based game, and you should be able to use whatever you want.

There are still types of weapons that classes are intended to use, thus, they get appropriate buffs and skill costs for that. Skill based or not, the same restrictions from every other MMORPG come into play here in order to build a character optimized to being the best he can be.

What you are asking for, it seems, is a complete reworking of the game mechanics in AO to make attack rating mean more. While I agree with you 110% that this is a major issue, I think you need to realize that the game mechanics as they are now are the way they are going to be on the last day of AO. If you don't want to accept that, then you should leave, as I have, and as many others have.

[________________Miir]

I have heard Agents say that the X-3 should have been Agent only, and I agree with them.

Yup

[Bionitrous]

No, what I am saying is that the Agent is 'best' at using the Rifle. He's the most skilled at using the Rifle.

What you are saying is that nobody else should be even allowed to use a Rifle.

No, don't be so obnoxious as to suggest I would recommend to any newbie to choose anything other than the cookie cutter 'best' template for starting a new character. I'm not stupid.

What I am saying is that the Agent is NOT 'the Rifle class'. The Agent is a Profession. The Agent is extremely good at using Rifles. What you are suggesting is that they be the only ones who should be allowed to pick up a Rifle. That's just about the most small-minded thing I've heard come off these boards.

If a player has 1000 in Rifle skill, as far as I know, that means they have enough skill to pick up a Rifle that requires 1000 in Rifle skill. The fact that having 1200 in Rifle skill and 900 in Rifle skill means little in terms of how the game plays out is another issue altogether.

This thread is saying that it is an insult to us as gamers that the player with 1000 in Pistol skill can't even put a weapon that require 8 in Pistol in his hand. Can't even *** fire it. That's wrong.

We understand why they did it. I stated that. Because they were too lazy to fix the Adventurers properly. Because they were too lazy to make that 200 skill point difference between the 'good' pistol users and the 'average' pistol users actually mean squat in the game. Because whoever is running this game is either an amature or ignorant.

I think the idea of every Agent 'having' to use a Rifle and every Adventurer being 'forced' to use Sols or Kaens/Init fixed BBI's is disgusting. Just as much as seeing every single Atrox enforcer in the game with a damn Support Beam turns my stomach. But even worse is saying that if I'm not an Adventurer you cut off my trigger finger. And if I'm not an Agent, you poke out my Right Eye as well.

If they'd add in guns and other weapons that went above Qlvl200, we would see that Agents might be able to equip a qlvl220 X-3 whearas the MP or Engineer could not. He'd be stuck with his qlvl201 X-3 and would suffer the consequences of having less skill. This is where the professional affinities should come into play. Not some assinine and arbitray 'I refuse to go in your hand because I don't like the profession on your union card' horse crap.

Want to use a weapon your profession really doesn't have the best potential in? Fine. There oughtta be some impact. But, to say that the Engineer's trigger finger is somehow not as 'worthy' as the Adventurer's trigger finger is a joke. The boost to Adventurers was a hack. It worked. It just was the lazy man's way to do it.

[__________Beautyfarm]

i completely agree with bioitrous here.

[mrpres1dent]

Originally posted by Bionitrous
If a player has 1000 in Rifle skill, as far as I know, that means they have enough skill to pick up a Rifle that requires 1000 in Rifle skill. The fact that having 1200 in Rifle skill and 900 in Rifle skill means little in terms of how the game plays out is another issue altogether.

Correct. And once the game allows for one profession to be signifigantly better than another profession in terms of one individual skill, an X-3 wielding Agent does not feel too secure with his profession when he sees a Doctor using an X-3, hitting for slightly less than he does, and able to Complete Heal, debuff, etc. This leads to Agents whining that they are nerfed, etc. Believe it or not, most players DO want profession-restricted weapons. It is the result of our own suggestions.

Once the game mechanics actually make an attack rating mean a lot more than a minimal difference in damage (and I do agree that the quality level system is to blame here), then profession restrictions would be unneccessary.

I do not know where the line is that should separate the weapons that might be better reserved for the specialists, and the weapons that might be better out in the open for all. In AO, sadly, I don't think it's possible to draw that kind of line. Putting a weapon out there that is supposed to give a viable weapons path for a profession lacking just that, and letting everybody use it, does not fix the problem at all. In my opinion, it worsens it.

The skill system, as nice as it is, is both AO's advantage, and AO's downfall. Funcom has failed to balance the scale between giving specialists an advantage over the non-specialists using the same weapon. A buff that increases attack rating by 100 does not even come close to giving a realistic advantage to a class that is supposed to excel in a particular weapons path.

I realize the skill system exists. Please do not be so ignorant to think that I believe nobody should be able to use weapons other than the ones "designated" for their class. I played an Adventurer for 200 levels before 14.4, and I invested in many dark blue skills to get by and do damage on par with my teammates and fellow players. I used everything from Ranged Energy to Shotguns to Rifles.

Until AO allows one profession to gain a signifigant advantage over another profession outside of skill caps and minimal attack rating differences, I do believe that the only way to give professions the advantage they deserve when using the weapons they specialize in is to restrict the powerful weapons to those classes.

I do agree it's a hack, but unfortunately the only way to do it right is to revise the entire way AO calcuates damage, attack rating and skill caps. The differences between a dark blue skill and a green skill at level 200 should be a much wider gap, in my opinion. Quality level is also to blame here, and perhaps Shadowlands will fix this issue to some extent, but I think the heart of the issue, if you were to sit down and try to fix it right, lies in the skill system.

[secondkenlon]

You want a difference between specialist and non-specialist professions?


Raise the QL of items in game.

[gwend]

Originally posted by eyedee
Would your grandma be able to swing a big steel beam to?

beam has a breed req not profession

[odian102]

I dont agree at all with profession requirements, Attack rating needs to have a more major impact on the weapon.

what i hate is the randomness of Funcom picking weapons to put a profession cap on.

example: Im a trader. I like pistols. all the good pistols have an adv. cap on them. I would rather see the adv. have the ability to make special nodrop ammo that give them the advantage.

Agents shouldn't complain about other professions using the x-3. Take a look at the ithaca, by its design it was made with traders im mind. Everyone in the world uses it.

I just think there is another way better then profession caps. it just stinks. It forces you to be a cookie-cutter

[Portulis]

Profession specific items were introduced into the game for one reason...Balance.

The adventurer only pistols placed in the game made pistol using adventurers a viable class again (one can argue that 1HE adventurers have been viable all along). The problem I see is that the River XP, Ithica Vultrue, BBI 750 are powerful pistols, and if other professions were using them, would lead to a nerf similar to that of the Freedom Arms/multiwield nerf.

Profession specific weapons are rather limited...soldiers, adventurers, and agents (not sure on this one?). In the case of soldiers, they are ranged weapons specialists and it makes sense in a role play aspect that only they have the "skills" to operate certain guns. Likewise, adventurers are the only profession with the knowledge to wield certain handguns....etc. Carrying this further...we have Professor Jones vest, why should only nanomages be allowed to wear this piece of clothing, or the MP Tshirt, etc....at some point lets let some diversity occur, and profession/breed specific items other than nanoformulas allow that.

Now...going back to adventurers, who seem to have the most specific class weapons in game....we have swords, the Black Pete (a 1hb weapon), a couple of piercing skill items, and a variety of pistols, adv only rings, adv coat and hood, and who knows what else...These items were placed in game to balance a profession which is no way "uber" even with all the new content.

Along with profession specific items, general weapons have been introduced to the benefit of all classes. The X3 rifle is a good example, while a NT may use one with good effect, the maximum damage potential with it is only realized with an agent. The V3 pistol is excellant, and provides about 75% of the damage done by a Novaflow, and any profession can use it...Not to mention shotgun which any class can raise, and be proficient with if desired....

Removing class restrictions on items which are in game for balancing purposes would be wrong in my opinion, I mean, might as well let any class wear grid armor if we are gonna go that far....

[____________Ejeckted]

AO was a better game at release,
when there were no profession-only tags on items,
and it was a pure skill-based game.

You can have a skill-based game with levels.
The two are not mutually exclusive.
Unless you put a level-req on an item,
then it makes skill levels irrelivant.

Earn IP. Spend IP on skills. Use skills.
Simple concept that allows freedom in character creation.
(it doesnt matter how you earn the IP)

Since release, the rules of AO have become more and more
restrictive, oversimplified to the point of boring, and instead
of advancing the genre, they have backpeddled into the EQish
gamemechanics that many are used to and therefore feel
is the way games like this are 'supposed to be'.

'Balance' is nothing but a good excuse for nerfs.
No game will ever give players freedom until the
developers give up on the idea of total balance
amoung the thousands of characters players create.
Diversity is more fun than equality.

Balance Breed vs Breed.
Balance Weapons vs Weapons.
Balance Armor vs Armor.
Balance Profession (nanos and skill cost) vs Profession

Then let players make every choice from that point on.
Do not try to balance one category vs another.
"comparing apples and oranges" and other cliches.

Some classes/skills will end up more 'uber' than others.
And that is totally ok. There is nothing wrong with that.
If you want to be 'uber' then you go with whatever is.
And you dont have to be scared of nerfs because
being powerful is ok. Other classes may appeal more to
roleplayers. And other classes tradeskillers. And other
classes maybe just people who like to play the underplayed
classes to be different. It really doesn't matter.
Don't ruin a good game, or limit player options, for 'balance'.

The people demanding balance/nerfs are a certain kind of
personality who will never be satisfied until they feel better
than everyone else. And obviously everyone can't be better
than everyone. (whatever better means) So it's a waste of
time trying to appease that type of person.

We can't all be better than eachother, but we can all be different.
We can all enjoy the same options, but make different decisions.
And that's what's important! IMO that's what a vitual world is about.

I want a game where I am one of thousands of unique characters.
(that is possible if you offer players enough decisions)
Games where I am playing just another dev-designed character sucks.

That's what profession-only stuff ends up doing.
If you think it's "love" or a "fix".. you're wrong.
It's a developer telling you what to do with your character..


edit:

take that Adventurer example.
before the 'adventurer love patch', adventurers used a wide
variety of weapons, due to thier skill with so many weapon types.
(relatively cheap, and above average final skill caps).
since adventurer-only weapons however,
they all use BBI pistols or SOL fire executioners.
They killed one of the best things about the class,
which was that they were reasonably good (but not best)
with ALL weapontypes. Now, because that was the 'fix' they got,
they have to switch to 1HE/pistol and have a very small
number of 'viable' (viable is relative) choices.
Sure they could stay using whatever they were before,
but that means they become gimps compared to those who switch.
Anyone who doesn't make the switch doesnt get the 'fix'.
It's coercion into conformity.


Funcom broke the basic rules of balance I stated above;
they wanted to improve a profession (nanos and skills)
and instead reached into the weapon category.

[Bionitrous]

Awesome post, Scumbug. That part about 'love' patches being the developers telling you what you 'have' to do with your character rang loud and true.

[Gene13]

What he said.
/me points at Scumbug.

/G13

[Portulis]

Originally posted by Bionitrous
Awesome post, Scumbug. That part about 'love' patches being the developers telling you what you 'have' to do with your character rang loud and true.

Hmm. I guess my Nova/Flashpoint adventurer is cookie cutter then?

Fact is most professions stick to a template of sorts

Morelian

[Darkbane]

At the end of the day, it's just a game. It has rules (which need have no connection with the real world) and you work with them.

That said, if I was designing this game, I'd not have done things this way, but as has been pointed out, its all water under the bridge now.

Interesting to have the discussion, but its highly unlikely to change things.

[________________Miir]

Anarchy Online is not a "skill based" game.


True skill based games do not have classes/professions.


UO was pretty close to a skill based game, but it still had professions.
Fallout was a pure skill based game.
EQ/DAoC is a rigid class based game.
AO is a class based game with a flexible skill system.




You cannot use the arguement that AO is skill based when well defined professions were designed as a core game element.

[________________Miir]

take that Adventurer example.
before the 'adventurer love patch', adventurers used a wide
variety of weapons, due to thier skill with so many weapon types.
(relatively cheap, and above average final skill caps).
since adventurer-only weapons however,
they all use BBI pistols or SOL fire executioners.
They killed one of the best things about the class,
which was that they were reasonably good (but not best)
with ALL weapontypes. Now, because that was the 'fix' they got,
they have to switch to 1HE/pistol and have a very small
number of 'viable' (viable is relative) choices.

I see advents with Pistols (Rivers, Electronicums, BBIs, Kaens), Assault Rifles (HS, Nova, River), 2he (Longmoon, EWK), 1he, Shotguns (Ithaca). I've even seen advents with Black Petes, Alloys and X3s.


You comment is about as pointless as saying that ALL agents use X3s and ALL Soldiers use CHS and ALL Enforcers use Beam or Alloy/Pipe and ALL Fixers use a MCS.

[____________Ejeckted]

Originally posted by Miir


I see advents with Pistols (Rivers, Electronicums, BBIs, Kaens), Assault Rifles (HS, Nova, River), 2he (Longmoon, EWK), 1he, Shotguns (Ithaca). I've even seen advents with Black Petes, Alloys and X3s.


You comment is about as pointless as saying that ALL agents use X3s and ALL Soldiers use CHS and ALL Enforcers use Beam or Alloy/Pipe and ALL Fixers use a CHS.

I dont know who you're teaming with,
but 90% of adventurers I see use adv-only 1HE
or adv-only pistols. That wasn't so pre-Adventurer-patch.

do the math. Any adventurer who doesnt use 1He or pistol
(far better weapons and huge buffs) is a releative gimp
in damage and ATK compared to those who do.
It's not that you can't use anything else,
but that you're pushed so strongly into doing what you're told.
Adventurers who dont conform, dont get the love/fix.
We now have pre-patch Advs and post-patch Advs.

The only common exception I see are the assualt-rifle
alpha-strikers for PvP and spawn camping.


And a fix to pistols should have been a fix to pistols,
not a fix to adventurers.

This game, any game, will always have 'balance problems'
and diversity will wither, if you try to fix one gamemechanic
by changing another totally seperate gamemechanic.
Professions have nothing to do with Weapons.
Some professions are better with certain weapons, sure.
But that's not the same thing as trying to tie them together,
or use one to balance the other.

The best thing about AO was that anyone could wear/wield
anything they wanted to .. regardless of profession/skill-cost
if you were prepared to make the sacrifice in IP/ATK.
That isn't so anymore. And AO is a poorer game for it.

[________________Miir]

"they all use BBI pistols or SOL fire executioners"

90% of adventurers I see use adv-only 1HE
or adv-only pistols

I don't know any advents over level 100 using BBIs.
90% != all


Any adventurer who doesnt use 1He or pistol
(far better weapons and huge buffs) is a releative gimp
in damage and ATK compared to those who do.


Advents can be very effective if they use Rifle, AR, Shotgun, 1hb etc. They won't have the astronomical Attack Rating the pistol/1he advent but they will still deal good damage.

I concede that 1he/Pistol advents are the most common, but I fail to see what that proves.

Before the 'advent love', most used Riders or pistols anyway.



Agents are incredibly proficient in martial arts and do well with 1h melee weapons and pistol but most use rifle.
Looking through the database there is nothing but that Collins rifle for Agent specific weapons.
That 95% of all agents use an X3 is as irrelevant as stating that most advents use pistol/Sols.

[____________Ejeckted]

I apologize for allowing Miir to take the subject offtopic.


please funcom, balance via the skill system;
if you want certain classes to be best with certian weapons,
just look at the final caps and all possible implants/buffs
and it should be obvious how to aim weapons at professions,
without totally prohibiting use by those who just want to be different.
(by heavy sacrifice in IP, or inability to equip a very high QL, or dual-wield)

perfect example of balance without "only" tags
is the Slayerdroid Claw. Some professions could use a QL200,
but most can't. IF there were lower QLs dropping,
then some engie might choose to use a lower QL.
suffering from lower base damage (min-max(crit))
and lower muliplier (ATK) but still able to do what he wants.
He wont be as good as an Enforcer, but he'll be happy.
I would also point to the Mantis Scissors, which are only
dual-wieldable by a few professions. But not prohibited to anyone.