Friday with Means - May 1st, 2009

[ArienSky]

But why agents, the statistically best performing PvP profession in game? Just because they have tiny problems buffing, when they still have CH/UBT/AS/uber perks with damage, stuns and all.

I'm just trying to point out that it's very easy to be one-eyed when looking at professions one doesn't play. Please, have some respect for issues of others too.

Well, of all the professions I have tried, Agent was the hardest to play, I will admit that I have not played a Shade though.

The new nanoes that Agents have gotten hold on indeed helps the leveling agent, no one is disagreeing on that.
It is a huge boost in an demographic that was thinning out.
Playing Agent was so hard that most dropped it. Hence only the hardcore players got through the lvling, not the new players.
Those hardcore players then, "surprisingly", showed up as great killers in PVP, compared to professions where newcommers played too.

Here is a list of the unique downsides Agents have:

1. Perks and Research are not tailored to the Professions they mimic. No extra heal % research when DOC, no extra reflect perks when Soldier, no cocoon when Adventurer..
2. They have to spend IP on MANY nanoskills (two light blue, the rest dark blue).
3. Permanent -125 to all nanoskills while in Mimic (NR 1 perk, which gives +300NR is -200 nano skills, meaning that agents are missing out on that extra nano resistance, as well as nano Attack Rating)
4. Sneak attack is green, but the perks and nanoes support the light blue Rifle and Aimed Shot skills (Bow is another skill that is not dark blue).
5. From lvl 1 to 150-60 (twink lvl 100) the Agent can not use combat nanoes, just long lasting buffs, because of the nano init penalty.
6. Apart from Mongo, all the nanoes Agents Mimic are Rubi-Ka nanoes, that a lvl 170 can use. A lvl 220 Agent will have the same nanoes in mimic. The only improvement agents get from 170 to 220 is True Profession, a DOT that is not nano-cost efficient, a +dam line that is VERY IP expensive and new perks. Mongo is the only change to the Mimic setup.

Actually I think it is a fun challenge that the lower lvl agent has to think on just using long lasting buffs, but it indeed makes it harder than other professions.
No Calming, Rooting, Snareing or healing.. The cast times are too long in False Profession.
The above is a very short sentence though it has a HUGE impact on the game, having no panic button, no healing other than HOTs, no emergency shields, snares or calming.
Agents have an easy time dieing because of that.
Agents are team players, very bad at soloing in the start to mid game.
After that they are OK, but not as great as the real professions.

We were not joking around when we in the Agent forum talked about how we logged on other toons than our agents to have an easy time.
Challenge is fun, I guess that is why we still play our agents.
But with time they have gotten worse and worse as Perks and Research is tailored to the other professions performances, meaning Agents get worse and worse at mimicing, compared to the real profession.

How many real DOCs do you see using Complete Healing and Lifegiving Elixir at lvl 220?
How many lvl 220 Soldiers use Total Mirror Shield?
How many lvl 220 Engies does not use a Bot?
How many lvl 220 MPs do not use there attack absorbers and only have lvl 100 pets?

To be honest: The profession that looks most like Agents is Trader, using RK nanoes far up to 200, but they have the Research and GTH advantage and at TL 6 get the Nanite Improved skill drainers, that Agents do not have. But that is just 3 more nanoes compared to an Agent Mimicing.
(they also have a couple of extra heals, nano HOT and the NR draining line, but compared to other professions that have a great advantage over Agents, the difference is less between a Mimiced Agent and a Trader)

Kind Regards
Ariensky

These viewpoints are based on interviews with newcommers other agents and people with multiple endgame toons, as well as having tried various professions in start to mid-game.

[navycut]

Also, not being able to AS more than once is quite a pain in pvm

[Vhax]

Also, not being able to AS more than once is quite a pain in pvm

No worries, I'm sure FC will get around to just removing AS from the game.

[Vrezafk]

Well, of all the professions I have tried, Agent was the hardest to play, I will admit that I have not played a Shade though.

The new nanoes that Agents have gotten hold on indeed helps the leveling agent, no one is disagreeing on that.
It is a huge boost in an demographic that was thinning out.
Playing Agent was so hard that most dropped it. Hence only the hardcore players got through the lvling, not the new players.
Those hardcore players then, "surprisingly", showed up as great killers in PVP, compared to professions where newcommers played too.

Here is a list of the unique downsides Agents have:

1. Perks and Research are not tailored to the Professions they mimic. No extra heal % research when DOC, no extra reflect perks when Soldier, no cocoon when Adventurer..
2. They have to spend IP on MANY nanoskills (two light blue, the rest dark blue).
3. Permanent -125 to all nanoskills while in Mimic (NR 1 perk, which gives +300NR is -200 nano skills, meaning that agents are missing out on that extra nano resistance, as well as nano Attack Rating)
4. Sneak attack is green, but the perks and nanoes support the light blue Rifle and Aimed Shot skills (Bow is another skill that is not dark blue).
5. From lvl 1 to 150-60 (twink lvl 100) the Agent can not use combat nanoes, just long lasting buffs, because of the nano init penalty.
6. Apart from Mongo, all the nanoes Agents Mimic are Rubi-Ka nanoes, that a lvl 170 can use. A lvl 220 Agent will have the same nanoes in mimic. The only improvement agents get from 170 to 220 is True Profession, a DOT that is not nano-cost efficient, a +dam line that is VERY IP expensive and new perks. Mongo is the only change to the Mimic setup.

Actually I think it is a fun challenge that the lower lvl agent has to think on just using long lasting buffs, but it indeed makes it harder than other professions.
No Calming, Rooting, Snareing or healing.. The cast times are too long in False Profession.
The above is a very short sentence though it has a HUGE impact on the game, having no panic button, no healing other than HOTs, no emergency shields, snares or calming.
Agents have an easy time dieing because of that.
Agents are team players, very bad at soloing in the start to mid game.
After that they are OK, but not as great as the real professions.

We were not joking around when we in the Agent forum talked about how we logged on other toons than our agents to have an easy time.
Challenge is fun, I guess that is why we still play our agents.
But with time they have gotten worse and worse as Perks and Research is tailored to the other professions performances, meaning Agents get worse and worse at mimicing, compared to the real profession.

How many real DOCs do you see using Complete Healing and Lifegiving Elixir at lvl 220?
How many lvl 220 Soldiers use Total Mirror Shield?
How many lvl 220 Engies does not use a Bot?
How many lvl 220 MPs do not use there attack absorbers and only have lvl 100 pets?

To be honest: The profession that looks most like Agents is Trader, using RK nanoes far up to 200, but they have the Research and GTH advantage and at TL 6 get the Nanite Improved skill drainers, that Agents do not have. But that is just 3 more nanoes compared to an Agent Mimicing.
(they also have a couple of extra heals, nano HOT and the NR draining line, but compared to other professions that have a great advantage over Agents, the difference is less between a Mimiced Agent and a Trader)

Kind Regards
Ariensky

These viewpoints are based on interviews with newcommers other agents and people with multiple endgame toons, as well as having tried various professions in start to mid-game.

So you want Docs, soldiers, engis and MPs to reroll agent?

[sylesis]

So you basically want :
_ soldier's sl reflects
_ doc's sl heals
_ mp's highest pets
_ engi's pets

And in fact you you probably have forgotten some but I'll add them for you :
_ mimic keeper to use watch ward ( blockers from db quest line), hp and damage aura.

So to sumup, you want to be able to play profs in mimic the exact same way as players who rolled that prof at level ? I know this is the internet but get real, please.
The fp/assume/mimic line was never made to replace the mimiced profession, it was made so the agent could support the team or gives him/her/itself additionnal options on how to approach a problem. There are times where the agent can replace the mimiced prof, like in a 220 inferno easy who isn't is not strong enough to do without a doc, but those are not very common.
In fact, some might say agent are already too powerful because the rk crat carms even work inferno missions ( I got a screenie of my 220 agent fighting with 2 vortexoids )

Anyway, asking more nanos available in mimic is useless, as FC already gave some recently : sl advie heals ( sl doc heal would have been overpowered ), some composite mp nanos and a mongo.

And if you wonder what gives me the right to say that, I have a 220 fixer ( janetis), a 220 engi ( syleeth) and a 220 agent (sylesys)...

[ArienSky]

So you basically want :
_ soldier's sl reflects
_ doc's sl heals
_ mp's highest pets
_ engi's pets

And in fact you you probably have forgotten some but I'll add them for you :
_ mimic keeper to use watch ward ( blockers from db quest line), hp and damage aura.

So to sumup, you want to be able to play profs in mimic the exact same way as players who rolled that prof at level ? I know this is the internet but get real, please.
The fp/assume/mimic line was never made to replace the mimiced profession, it was made so the agent could support the team or gives him/her/itself additionnal options on how to approach a problem. There are times where the agent can replace the mimiced prof, like in a 220 inferno easy who isn't is not strong enough to do without a doc, but those are not very common.
In fact, some might say agent are already too powerful because the rk crat carms even work inferno missions ( I got a screenie of my 220 agent fighting with 2 vortexoids )

Anyway, asking more nanos available in mimic is useless, as FC already gave some recently : sl advie heals ( sl doc heal would have been overpowered ), some composite mp nanos and a mongo.

And if you wonder what gives me the right to say that, I have a 220 fixer ( janetis), a 220 engi ( syleeth) and a 220 agent (sylesys)...

Thank you for your replies Vrezafk and sylesis.
I see you both have confused my status report with a "what I want" list.

I will try to say it again, but in another way so you hopefully will understand it, we all have different ways of association:

Agents in general:
2) They have to spend IP on MANY nanoskills (two light blue, the rest dark blue).
3) Permanent -125 to all nanoskills while in Mimic
4) Limited access to nanoes
1) Perks and Research are not tailored to the Professions they mimic. No extra heal % research when DOC, no extra reflect perks when Soldier, no cocoon when Adventurer..

These are all limiting factors, put in place to not make the Agent as powerful as the real profession.
Agents indeed should not be as good as the real profession.

sylesis, it seems like you did not read the points, before you started argumenting.
The thing is that point 1) is having a greater and greater influence as time goes by.
First came the perks, then research, to make the real professions excel at what they are good at.
And I have not even mentioned equipment and armor adding to that.

By listing the parameters, the "buttons to turn", it is easier to see possible adjustments.

Research and Perks seem constant, they are not going to change and adjust for each mimic, leaving the other points.
Nanos, Nanoskill colour, nanoskill penalty, can be changed to make up for the difference.

The real profession will have a tailored Symbiant, Perk, Research and Armor aiding them to become hyper-specialized and good at what they ar doing.

Agents will never have that.
Hence the "everyone should just roll Agent then", is not a logical assumtion.
I am really sad to see that some people like to steer up a storm, coming with that very illogical statement.

Endgame Agents:
This is where the difference is greatest, as noted in the previous post.

Start-midgame Agents:
sylesis, I did mention the new nanoes, they indeed are good for the low lvled agent, so we can get more newcommers to try it out.

But everyone I know (that has logical thinking) agrees that Composite Masteries, Retool NCU etc. are for the low lvl Agent, to make them a better support profession in teams at the lower levels..
*smiles* to actually make it fun and usefull to a team, to be an Agent in the lower levels.
The levels where only long lasting buffs are doable.
No combat buffs or panic buttons as mentioned.

And I am very thankful for the addition, as they were severely needed.

It does not change the fact that Agents do not develop much from lvl 160 to 220.
As well as the fact that other professions seem to get even better at there specialty with time.

I love it.
The professions should be specialized, I am all in for that, it is the way to go.
But it leaves a void for the Agent.
The jack of all trades.
Limited in a lot of ways, being left further and further behind, when it comes to Tl 6 and 7

Or are you saying, sylesis, that Agents, with the enhanced nanocost, limited nanoes, perkks, symbiants and armor are better than the real profession?

I would very much like your analysis of that situation, mentioning the factors.
You are very welcomed to put it in the Agent forums, as I only mean my first post to shine a ligh on that it isn't just one-eyed view that Agents are hard to play, but show the factors that makes it hard.

Clicky to the Agent forums

I will continue mentioning differences:
What QL pets does Real MPs use in ToTW?
When will the real NT start using the top RK nanos?

At the moment there are few choices, as some professions indeed are _the best_ to mimic.

These are not "I want Agents to be 100% as good as the real professions", but nice indicators of that Agents are lagging behind, significantly.

If you want my "what I would like", I can give it to you here:
what I would like:
Nanoes that requires high Nanoskill to use.
Higher nanoskil cap, so you would not have to rely on items to use nanoes, but "just" use IP.

Meaning, by using IP in nanoskills you can use some GREAT nanos, but then you will not have enough IP for evades and weapon skills.
So an Agent, that wants to use all the nanos will be weak with there weapon or defense.

Equal access to nanos for the agent and the real profession (apart from GA, Bacon Wrap, GTH and other special prof specific nanoes)

If it were to me, not everyone should have access to the top end nanoes, it should require a sacrifice. Everyone having all nanoes + great equipment is one of the factors making Agents weak in comparison.

It should be a feasible strategy to say "heck, I will go for weaponskills and evades instead of nano-use"

then the Agent could sweep in, with the HUGE amount of IP spend in all the different nanoskills, and use the top nanoes of every profession.
.. but at the cost of bad defences/weapon skills

Min-Max should be a choice
(minimising everything but one/two skills they are maximising and hence being good at)

That is what I would like, now you asked

Kind Regards
Ariensky

[Ruffixx]

Maybe because I'm a bitter Fixer with all dark blue nano skills and endgame nanos with high requirements and difficulty casting compared to other professions, but I'm not getting the IP debate.

So you want to be able to spend a bunch of IP on multiple secondary weapon skills and be able to max everything else + nanos? Sorry, doesn't really work that way. I can't raise Shotty, AS, MR, or BE anymore because my IP is too tight and goes all to nano skills, so that one day I'll be able to self my final HoT without swapping HUDs or that I can cast SWS with swapping, but without CI or CM. I can't perk NR either, /whine.

Perks are never going to be re-worked except where they are completely underpowered, inferior, useless, and just wrong, i.e. 2hb/1hb.

Plus I don't see where FP or TP says, "We're just like xyz Profession by casting this nano!" You have to pay a price to utilize skills which are not a part of your toolset. That's why "Unfortunately this causes the nano controller to operate in a sub-optimal fashion." is in the description. Can't cast AMS? Too bad. Can't cast SL heals? Too bad. That's the price to pay for having access to those skills. You get to be a half-assed Doc, Sol, Enf, etc. Pretty much like being a Fixer. We can heal (but not well), we can do damage (but nothing excellent), we have support roles (that are nice, but not necessary).

[Hacre]

Of course Agents "have" to spend IP in a lot of nanoskills, to be able to cast the nanos of 12 professions, how is this some kind of surprise?!

[Vhax]

Agents in general:
2) They have to spend IP on MANY nanoskills (two light blue, the rest dark blue).
3) Permanent -125 to all nanoskills while in Mimic
4) Limited access to nanoes
1) Perks and Research are not tailored to the Professions they mimic. No extra heal % research when DOC, no extra reflect perks when Soldier, no cocoon when Adventurer..

Working as intended.

You're an agent, not any other profession.

[Zacharyas]

First off, I did not want to derail this thread into a discussion on what player x of profession y thinks an agent should be.

In my post I stated that I see (and I am happy) that blunt enforcers and fixers get a tune-up, whatever they will receive in the end. I said that I personally don't see ranged advies in such a needy situation that they need help right now - that *I personally* would prioritize otherwise. But I am happy to stand in line as long as I can have faith in Devs having a look at us once our time comes. No offense meant to ranged advies.

So please all calm down. What I see in the last few posts is the general discussion of "we are not efficient at anything" vs "you can be okayish at everything". We're not talking about the same point here.

Pre-SL, we were almost as good as any other profession we were mimicing, except for the innate disadvantages of the mimic nano itself. Since SL release in Sept 03, a lot of things have changed. All professions have evolved, have progressed. Our core ability of mimicing has been entirely dropped. The effect of a given ability, such as healpower for example, was entirely dependant on the nano used. A CH was always 10,001 hp. Regardless of an 180 Doc, 200 Doc, or 200 Agent being the caster. Symbiants, perks, personal research and prof locked items have made more and more influence on all such effects, being it % nano dmg (so we not only get not to use the new nt nukes, an nt is rushing ahead in dmg output by using the nukes an agent can), heal efficiency, or whatever. All that while the disadvantages of mimic remain in place.

That means, Agents can mimic, yes. From SL release to Means this has not been viewed as our core ability. We have been pushed towards being a ranged DD, some glascannon-style squishie hard-hitters. This has brought us to our current situation: We are a ranged DD, but 'on average' a pistol advie, a dshark soldier and a fixer have an easy time outdamaging 'an average agent' (I know that there are top players on each profession, so I said in average). We used to get picked because we could fill in holes in a team or raid situation - heal like a doc, but slower und with less nano pool, give out nt buffs, and such. Now, we cannot really replace any profession anymore, so we are reduced to a ranged DD. But Fixers have wanted unique buffs while dealing out a lot of dmg, and soldiers have the bonus ability of tanking. With AI, perception-heavy aliens have made our as-pvm-life even harder, while burst and fullauto were not affected. Fullauto caps at 15k, AS caps at 13k. With the last Game Director cutting down all our requests with a "I have a statistic I won't even show or comment, I just have one, and it says you are ubar enough, so don't you come begging", we were finally left in a pure dd spot, were we were outshined by anything that could weild ranged weapons (okay, we dominate pistol docs dmgwise).

Lost Eden and Means have made first changes to this situation, and most of us were giving shouts of joy purely for the fact that we got recognized. That's why I am happy for blunt Enforcers and Fixers - I know how hard times can be, and you guys really deserve some boost. And I believe adventurers could also need some gadgets, I don't have one, so I guess some professions have a greater need than others that seem to do quite well at the moment.

Then again I don't know in which order all professions will get looked at, or how that order came to be, I have faith in Means and his approach of honest communication. I can live with having to wait in line until it is my turn to shine.

But I cannot live with people calling things "working as intended" as bugs like not running out debuffs from mimic prevent us from actually playing the way we are intended to. We have our limits, we do not ask for automated ubarness, but things like -140 to all nanokills from your last mimic even though the nano ran out, plus another -140 nanoskills from your active mimic limits us even further, and to request such things being looked at soon (tm) to just allow us to buff (even though that almost takes as long as poor engis) is nothing less than justified.


I hope I could explain my last post, and really hope noone tries to misuse these words to fuel the flames.

[AzureCat]

I have no problem with the agent high IP Cost, however, either the False/Assume/Mimic profession line needs access to a lot more nanos.

But why agents, the statistically best performing PvP profession in game?

Their PVP may be good, but Agents tend to underperform in PvE.

The fp/assume/mimic line was never made to replace the mimiced profession, it was made so the agent could support the team or gives him/her/itself additionnal options on how to approach a problem.

The problem is that in practice, this does not currently work. Agents cannot use Fgrid, Beacon Warp, any of the Shadowlands Warps, multiple classes get meeps anyway, and the collossal init debuffs (even in Mimic) makes many of the nanos Agents -can- cast in false professions less than useful. Nevermind the inherant fail in FPing Engineer without being able to use engy bots. Not being able to use some of the special other prof only usables also makes those FPs less valuable as well.

I personally do think that Agents should be a swiss army knife, able to fill in and do all the things any other class can do, just not as well (Reflected by not being able to cast top nanos and the debuffs). Currently, the False Profession line mostly fails at this, and is just used as a crutch to make up for the fact that Agents have no defensive/healing nanoline of their own.

[Zacharyas]

The problem is that in practice, this does not currently work. Agents cannot use Fgrid, Beacon Warp, any of the Shadowlands Warps, multiple classes get meeps anyway, and the collossal init debuffs (even in Mimic) makes many of the nanos Agents -can- cast in false professions less than useful. Nevermind the inherant fail in FPing Engineer without being able to use engy bots. Not being able to use some of the special other prof only usables also makes those FPs less valuable as well.

I personally do think that Agents should be a swiss army knife, able to fill in and do all the things any other class can do, just not as well. Currently, the False Profession line mostly fails at this, and is just used as a crutch to make up for the fact that Agents have no defensive/healing nanoline of their own.

It is not the mimic line that fails, but the selection of nanos of each profession we get to use in combination with retaining that professions uniqueness in combination with the way we are able to use those nanos that we have access to.

If soloing on RK, there is no alternative to mimic doc. Combining engi reflects with enforcer hp to increase our tankability is an idea, but doesn't really work out all the way. But then we get to the point where general gameplay questions arise, such as how to deal with recovery downtimes in between fights. Like, you could use tactic a, b or c to kill a mob, and then wait a minute or two until you have fully recovered (perks, nano lockout times, hp, np), or you could use tactic d *again* as always, because downtimes are boring. So we need to distinguish between agenty problems and gameplay problems.

[AzureCat]

It is not the mimic line that fails, but the selection of nanos of each profession we get to use in combination with retaining that professions uniqueness in combination with the way we are able to use those nanos that we have access to.

If soloing on RK, there is no alternative to mimic doc. Combining engi reflects with enforcer hp to increase our tankability is an idea, but doesn't really work out all the way. But then we get to the point where general gameplay questions arise, such as how to deal with recovery downtimes in between fights. Like, you could use tactic a, b or c to kill a mob, and then wait a minute or two until you have fully recovered (perks, nano lockout times, hp, np), or you could use tactic d *again* as always, because downtimes are boring. So we need to distinguish between agenty problems and gameplay problems.

Except if all your using engy for are reflects, why use engy at all? Soldier Reflects are better, and you get TMS. Even giving beacon warp to FP: Engy will at least give some utility which would make it at least used some.

[Hacre]

Except if all your using engy for are reflects, why use engy at all? Soldier Reflects are better, and you get TMS. Even giving beacon warp to FP: Engy will at least give some utility which would make it at least used some.

Because along with Engi reflects, which I believe are only 5% worse than RRFE, you -also- get reflect ripper.

[AzureCat]

Because along with Engi reflects, which I believe are only 5% worse than RRFE, you -also- get reflect ripper.

Which is primarily a PvP tool. The problem with agents are that their PvE toolset is not that great.

[erozc]

First off, I did not want to derail this thread into a discussion on what player x of profession y thinks an agent should be.

In my post I stated that I see (and I am happy) that blunt enforcers and fixers get a tune-up, whatever they will receive in the end. I said that I personally don't see ranged advies in such a needy situation that they need help right now - that *I personally* would prioritize otherwise. But I am happy to stand in line as long as I can have faith in Devs having a look at us once our time comes. No offense meant to ranged advies.

So please all calm down. What I see in the last few posts is the general discussion of "we are not efficient at anything" vs "you can be okayish at everything". We're not talking about the same point here.

...

I hope I could explain my last post, and really hope noone tries to misuse these words to fuel the flames.

I swear that's the last time I say 'agent' on the forums. Talk about a hijack. Anyway, glad to hear you didn't mean any offense, the original post was not so subtle in its wording but I can see where you're coming from. For the third time, dismissing problems one is not experiencing is way too simple and always an easy choice. That's all I tried to say with the agent thing, not imply uberness/gimpedness.

[Ciex]

Could you rework APFs a bit? Adding viralbots to lootlists of generals would keep the people doing them. After instancing and initial rush for new nanos they seem to be deserted because there is nothing to sell and LoX offers much better axp so new players/alts have a lot of trouble getting their equipment / nanos.

How about sector 10 fix?

[howlin]

Heh, boosting advys i see?
lol

[SSK]

It's just usual "who is nerfest" battle...

[Vrezafk]

Could you rework APFs a bit? Adding viralbots to lootlists of generals would keep the people doing them. After instancing and initial rush for new nanos they seem to be deserted because there is nothing to sell and LoX offers much better axp so new players/alts have a lot of trouble getting their equipment / nanos.

How about sector 10 fix?

I agree on this, getting the nano is for sure a pain in the ass for alt(s) and new players