Friday with Means - March 13th, 2009

[Ayria]

Is there any way a mod can give this troll some time out to think about why personal attacks on other users are wrong?

Pot calling the kettle black my dear.

Yes, and as they have stated before, this is something they cannot do, due to various considerations. They keep an open mind to player suggestions, and... that is as far as it goes. Why are you not happy with this? It's more than many companies do.

I never said that they would do, nor did I try to infer that they had said they would. I was simply trying to get the point across that Berinda has no authority to speak for them, no matter the topic or the official standing of it.

For starters, open source clearly DOES NOT MEAN WHAT YOU THINK IT DOES.

OpenSource means that the code is free to modify, use, sell, gift, and generally do whatever you want to it. At least that is how it was introduced to me. When I talk of and am talked to of OpenSource scripting/coding it means a bit of code that I give away for a cost or for free that the person can do anything and everything with.

Afraid it won't be owned by Funcom then? Oh no, modify the danm code, whola it is now "legal" (considering OpenSource is not a law it's a mutual agreement) to hide the code because now it isn't the code you got OS, now it's your own rendition of code.

What does it mean to you?

And do you REALLY think FC's devs have time to go over a few dozen of these each day and STILL produce content? It's enough of a job them balancing the quests they make from scratch, can you umagine if they had to weed out the 99% of unusable player generated ones AS WELL?

They already do this with the forum input.

[Jellyfunk]

OpenSource means that the code is free to modify, use, sell, gift, and generally do whatever you want to it.

To reiterate, open source clearly does not mean what you think it does.

[Berinda]

You clearly know nothing of how SecondLife and Linden Labs works. Nor do you seem to understand that nothing Funcom does is original anymore. Did they ask permissions from the original person who conceptualized Social Tab? And not the guy who suggested it on the forum, other games have had it previously. Did they ask them all for permission?

So because other games have social tabs, Funcom should use other people's 3D models without permission and it's all perfectly fine? And the comparison is also flawed, seeing as though they didn't copy and paste the code from the first social tab ever to make the one for AO. It's like saying nothing FC does is original because their games use the internet and display graphics.

I didn't bother quoting the rest of your post because whether or not you plagarized has no bearing on the fact that selling stuff other people has copyright claim to is illegal - and will more than likely happen at some point if FC were to take user submissions of 3D models and textures. It's not about originality, it's about international copyright law, which is a huge consideration whether you like it or not.

[Mikenche]

I haven't spoken about the engine for awhile...as it is difficult to make code optimization interesting...I only listen in those meeting because I have to.

Oh, I'd love to hear some juicy tidbits about hardships overcome and bugs squished in writing the new engine. Being a programmer myself, I can appreciate an ingenious solution to a difficult problem. You definitely should get the devs to write about what they do.

[Ayria]

To reiterate, open source clearly does not mean what you think it does.

OpenSource obviously means many things. Because in the crowd I hang out with, which calls themselves the "College of Scripting, Music and Science" (a group with more members then AO has subscribers) OpenSource is defined as I posted.

If you care to enlighten me as to what your definition of it is feel free, you can then also share the sentiment with everyone who agrees with me.

So because other games have social tabs, Funcom should use other people's 3D models without permission and it's all perfectly fine? And the comparison is also flawed, seeing as though they didn't copy and paste the code from the first social tab ever to make the one for AO. It's like saying nothing FC does is original because their games use the internet and display graphics.

And you say I skew things? No they didn't copy and paste the code, but they copied the idea. What happens if Funcom gets a model design from a player and puts it in game and it happens to look like a replica of some other game even though it really truly is a original work by the player. It's not a copy and paste job, the player did all the work on their own, but Funcom still has to fear legal retribution for copyright infringement because what they have appears to be a copy?

What they have is a copy of the social mode that other games have, it isn't a copy paste, not by far, but if you're going to say that legal actions can be taken against Funcom if they publish something submitted by a player that is "stolen" then they have just as much fear, logically at least (a concept that escapes you), from the implementation of features such as the social tab.

Lets say I find a gun in Farcry I like and decide to make a 3d model of it. It looks great, a lot like the original; I made a few changes because I was to lazy to get the detail level and didn't have the textures so had to use my own. I really like how it turned out and I figure eh, why not give it to Funcom it could be a cool new Agent rifle. So I email them the .c4d file and let them look it over. They decide that before putting it in game they'll change a few things; lengthen the barrel more and change textures and detailing a bit to fit their likes but the weapon still largely resembles it's inspiration from Farcry.

Now the weapon is in game and some screenshots are out there, the makers of Farcry recognize their gun and.. what? Claim Funcom stole it? Sue Funcom because they're using a design that they (Ubisoft) made? How do they know it was stolen? How do they prove to the courts it was stolen? It was original work, from a blank page to full fledged scripted weapon in game, but the idea was copied from Farcry. Do they have basis to sue?

If yes then someone has basis to sue Funcom for use of many things like social tab because while it isn't a direct copy it is a copy of the idea.

If no then there is no legal issues to user submitted content because it will be modified, changed, and not a perfect copy of whatever idea they used. You can't sue someone for using your idea (at least outside the USA you can't, I wouldn't put it past some judge there).

Hell, there was even a tv show (it stopped filming back in 06) of people who recreate items in patents without the owners (of the patent) permission because they alter the design. And it was perfectly legal.

tl;dr version: You can't sue someone for using your idea and if you change the design it becomes your original work and cannot be claimed as a copy.

[SoldiTwo]

Oh, I'd love to hear some juicy tidbits about hardships overcome and bugs squished in writing the new engine. Being a programmer myself, I can appreciate an ingenious solution to a difficult problem. You definitely should get the devs to write about what they do.

True, would be nice to here more of that - bump!

Offtopic:
Does anyone know if the AoC GTC work with AO accounts?
If not, maybe Funcom could change that, would be nice if they could also be used with ao.

[Means]

Guys...please keep the personal attacks out of this thread. Getting nasty in here. Argument is fine...but circular abuse is pointless.

[Noxira]

Can we also get sneak peeks of the improved body meshes once there's been some progress with them? Are you planning to tweak some of the idle animations for more natural ones and actually keep the characters' feet against the ground? They're wobbling around now a little and it's kinda unsettling to look at.

Also bump for dev journals and little tidbits of their everyday work with the engine!

[Means]

No they didn't copy and paste the code, but they copied the idea.

We have wanted to put a social tab in game for as long as I have been here...and it was an idea that was around long before I arrived 5 years ago. As a skill based game that requires effort to equip items it was a very very obvious feature...it only took this long due to the complexity of implementing it and time pressures that didn't allow for the considerable work that it required. I would certainly not say we had "copied" someone else.
The complexity of the item code in AO is scary...I'm very grateful Macrosun took it on himself to struggle through that to give us the social tab.

What would be do without people raiding in Panda heads and bikinis? While I agree that features are often "inspired" by other products I wouldn't say we have ever directly "copied" from other products. I don't think AO could be more different from other games if we tried.

[Technogen]

Yes, but now everything is coded in Lolcode!

[Mastablasta]

In EQ2 you have to be level 20 to use social tab

[Means]

In EQ2 you have to be level 20 to use social tab

Ooo...we should copy that! :P

[Windguaerd]

Yeah, i'm not a fan of increasing hardware requirements for AO, but worrying about PCI cards is really a bit pushing it too far. I think the reasonable way to to set the minimal reqs is the maxed out PC from the year when the game came out.

Really, 8 year old high class hi-fi system or 8-year high class car can be still almost just as good as when they were new, but in IT terms, 8 years old PC is a Stone Age.

That would mean something like what, Ge Force 3, Pentium 1.4 Ghz?

AO currently can reasonably fine on first Ge Force , as long as you dont have a completely medieval CPU . And as long as you can get the client to actually detect your graphic card.

Top of the line PC from 8 years ago... you can probably get at no cost from freecycle or maybe $20. If that is how much you expect a gamer to stay up to date to play games, forget it.

These days a decent CHEAP gaming rig is between $500-$1000 so you can play new games (some not at the highest settings).

My $300 non-gaming laptop is far far far better than a 2001 top of the line desktop gaming rig.

I would think that the req with the new engine would allow my laptop to play AO at lower settings.

I have a Celeron 540 @ 1.84GHz, 2GB RAM, Windows Vista 32-Bit. I can't upgrade the video or audio because they are both on-board.

It handles AO at high settings without much problem.

[Noxira]

My rig runs games like Bioshock at max settings without one stutter. In AO, it's not humanly possible for me to run through Borealis at a crowded time of day I know it's just because of poor support for Radeon cards though.

[Technogen]

I get max FPS in AO with everything on and 16xQ AA.

[Klodovik]

I get max FPS in AO with everything on and 16xQ AA.

With what configuration?

[Kaylinne]

Ooo...we should copy that! :P

Please dont.
Nothing beats being able to dress nicely even lvl 1 bank alt.

[Technogen]

E8400
8800 GT
4GB Ram

[Kaylinne]

I get max FPS in AO with everything on and 16xQ AA.

What is max fps?
I have 70ish everywhere but at towers, if its big zerg I am happy if I get around 13. So I doubt you have max fps with just everything.

[styles999]

Yeah, i get maxxed fps usually..but yesterday while omni zerg towers it was around 58ish or so(lowest ive seen)

i have a system that is/was specific for playing graphicly intensive fps games, id say personally the min could be bumped up to say 7600gt equiv

nowdays most walmart brand pc's could/would run ao without problems, but again there is a huge diff between video and connection related problems. and i see people all the time saying its video when it isnt or could be just sync/connection issues