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Thread: Make sure all profs have a use in instanced Pande

  1. #1

    Make sure all profs have a use in instanced Pande

    Whenever it does come, at its current state pande raids will be pretty much this:

    2 Docs
    1 Enf
    4 Solds
    3 Shades
    2 MAs
    1 or 2 random orgmates that snuck in/duel logged alts

    What this means is that a majority of the other profs will find a hard time getting into pande raids. So before instanced pande is introduced please keep in mind the possible rolls profs can have in a new Pande.

    Examples would be changes to the different vortex opening mobs.

    Have one using a TMS/AMS line nano for 90% reflects and lower NR. This makes traders, engies, and NTs much desired.

    Have one with nasty nanos that make a raid much harder unless it is NSD'd. Similar to Ice Golem this would help MP's and even could use agents for this if the NR was low enough.

    Make some of the mobs easier to manage with mezzing, while they currently are in some cases this could still use some work. Trader, crat, and NT is more desireable again.

    These are just basic examples but the main thing is keep all profs roles in mind, and remember that many groups will passover many players if they feel they are not needed.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by gatester View Post
    Whenever it does come, at its current state pande raids will be pretty much this:

    2 Docs
    1 Enf
    4 Solds
    3 Shades
    2 MAs
    1 or 2 random orgmates that snuck in/duel logged alts
    I doubt it.

    If u have no enf, then already crat/nt/trader will be very much desired to calm the pink mobs, making offtanking duties easier, and the raid faster.

    Agents are useful in pande since they can UBT the mobs there (which is ofc very important in pande), leaving docs to focus on healing.

    Engis are great in combination with Enfos ('mongo' raiding), since their blinds reduce the AR of the mobs drastically, resulting in the enf (provided he has some decent aad in his setup) evading a lot more hits. Aside from that, their damage is awesome too, so they are always useful.

    Crats have the added use in that they can calm ANY mob in pande. When the portal comes down and mobs are repopping, crats can take care of them while your raid force goes through. Extremely useful. Aside from that, they can also do awesome dd and their stuns work wonders, esp. on the bosses.

    Fixers and Keepers? mmm Well, Fixers indeed have no particular tool which can be used to affect the course of the raid, however, their HoTs and their NCU is always useful. Damage is ok.. actually similar to a soldiers, so its not to be dismissed. Keepers are always useful for their auras and make really good offtanks. So, particularly if there is no enf around, keepers come in real handy.

    Advies can still do really good dd - even though 95% of the ones I see don't (probably they are pvp setup..). Aside from that, they can also heal very well, and make great offtanks! Again, if no enf, or if f.ex. just one doc - advies would come in really handy.

    Certainly some profs are 'more' useful than others. Its like that in every raid in AO, but I think of all raids, Pande is one where all profs can find themselves challenged and gives them - at least under certain conditions - the chance to use their pvm toolset pretty well.

    I don't think it needs changing now. That said, it (as all raids, regarding balanced prof usefullness) could always be improved.
    Last edited by dododo2; Feb 5th, 2009 at 22:06:23.
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  3. #3
    So many enfs I doubt a raidforce leaves without one, and they will probly fix the pande mob sploiting if they haven't already. After that you still have 1 raid with 1 mezzer (probly a crat), so the rest are pretty much teamless again.

    Engie blind is not gonna work in pande and mongo would break it everytime.

    Fixer damage is not similar to soldiers And i don't know any spot in pande you need an offtank which would be left to a prof that can actually out taunt healing, ie shades damage, soldiers, enfs.

    Well I could keep going but the main point isn't that other profs won't be useful, its that they aren't useful enough for people to try to find one before starting. The usefulness of engie warps made them much desired in DB instances as well as mezzers in the new DB. This left teams that would normally be full of DD and a doc often including traders NTs engies for their supportive rolls.

    Just putting it out there the same consideration should be taken with Pande unless it is made able to be done much more easily than now with just 12 average to good players.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by gatester View Post
    So many enfs I doubt a raidforce leaves without one, and they will probly fix the pande mob sploiting if they haven't already. After that you still have 1 raid with 1 mezzer (probly a crat), so the rest are pretty much teamless again.
    I'm not sure I understand what you're saying there.

    Quote Originally Posted by gatester View Post
    Engie blind is not gonna work in pande and mongo would break it everytime.
    Who says that the tank has to continuously mongo? You move forward - mongo 1-3 times, then stuff is calmed and blinded while you kill. People always assume that mongo leaves no room for calming, which I don't believe is true. Back in the day before bots really started zerging Pande, blinds were actually a much appreciated part of Zodiac and Beast raids.

    Quote Originally Posted by gatester View Post
    Fixer damage is not similar to soldiers And i don't know any spot in pande you need an offtank which would be left to a prof that can actually out taunt healing, ie shades damage, soldiers, enfs.
    Heal aggro is rather 2005 - I only ever get heal aggro at SS if there're more mobs than off tanks (ie. a raid without enf). Keepers, advies, whatever - they all offtank well enough to "out aggro" any heal aggro.

    Quote Originally Posted by gatester View Post
    Well I could keep going but the main point isn't that other profs won't be useful, its that they aren't useful enough for people to try to find one before starting. The usefulness of engie warps made them much desired in DB instances as well as mezzers in the new DB. This left teams that would normally be full of DD and a doc often including traders NTs engies for their supportive rolls.

    Just putting it out there the same consideration should be taken with Pande unless it is made able to be done much more easily than now with just 12 average to good players.
    I disagree quite a bit - I'm on line with Dodo tbh. Many professions can be spared, but there are a lot of combinations that can do pande with only 8-10 people. Doctors are more or less mandatory since you have to kill Beast, and the SS spot is nasty at times.

    Different setups require different professions - you have an enf, then you can go without calmer and vice versa. You have a soldier and you don't need an enf to tank beast - you have engi and enf then you don't need a soldier. Calmer role can be filled by any calmer, but a crat calmer allows for cutting it closer on minimum dmg (boss calms at portals). If you have a good enf you only need one doc. Any profession with DD and high PvM survivability is always welcome, especially if there's no enf. Keepers, advies, soldiers, MAs and even fixers all make perfekt off tanks.

    It depends a lot on how you play it, but there's no profession that'll be left out like you see melee being in Alb for example. Neither do you see one profession being mandatory except doctor really, and although I might be biased then you gotta ask yourself if one of the largest raids in the game should be doable without doctors. It is possible to do it without a doctor ofcourse, but you need rather a lot of secondary healing I reckon.
    Avari 220/30/80 - Araghos 220/30/80 - Shishido 220/30/7x - Araninn 220/30/80

    Quote Originally Posted by Tergx
    If one of the few traders are PvPing around you and land GTH on you, take a trip to decon and it will be gone. What's the big deal hehe.

  5. #5
    All professions ARE useful in Pande, you will find that out soon enough when you start raiding it with 12 people instead of 90. As long as they lock it to 3 teams top, it will be fine.

  6. #6
    Guess I should say this a different way.

    What is faster, raid with 4 solds and 4 shades or a raid with 1 sold 2 advy 1 trader 1 crat 1 Fixer and 2 mp (asside from tank+doc)? Don't forget half of both those groups are less than 220. Definately not saying either one of you are wrong but considering I can tank pande with a half finished enfo using a 219 doc 1 crat and rest all soldiers and shades getting more people that have a chance at "my loot" seems like it could be the next problem in pande.

    I likely won't have this problem since the combination of the two orgs I'm in have enough for a full raid force but its not gonna be good when every day raiding goes down to weekend raiding only.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by gatester View Post
    Guess I should say this a different way.

    What is faster, raid with 4 solds and 4 shades or a raid with 1 sold 2 advy 1 trader 1 crat 1 Fixer and 2 mp (asside from tank+doc)? Don't forget half of both those groups are less than 220. Definately not saying either one of you are wrong but considering I can tank pande with a half finished enfo using a 219 doc 1 crat and rest all soldiers and shades getting more people that have a chance at "my loot" seems like it could be the next problem in pande.
    After a while people will have the choice between raiding with non-perfect prof setups or simply no raiding at all. I reckon people will choose the former. If anything, this'll push people towards a more sensible guild structure in whice they can raid instances together.

    That's how I think it'll turn out atleast, and I do believe there's some merit to it seeing how raids in FFA weeks has been done over the past couple of years.
    Avari 220/30/80 - Araghos 220/30/80 - Shishido 220/30/7x - Araninn 220/30/80

    Quote Originally Posted by Tergx
    If one of the few traders are PvPing around you and land GTH on you, take a trip to decon and it will be gone. What's the big deal hehe.

  8. #8
    avr had good use of engineers aoe blinding when we raided stuff, also with mongoing tank
    woofwoof!

  9. #9
    It's funny how people suddenly consider crats very desirable after the first time they walk through pand in mere minutes as a crat boss calms.

    Crats are fine. I can't speak for the rest, but crats in pand really are fine.

    Prouver que j'ai raison serait accorder que je puisse avoir tort.

  10. #10
    Good ideas, I think pande should be changed slightly in general to kind of do away with the blob, heal and kill method.

  11. #11
    We've all heard similar arguments to this as reasons not to instance/radically change instanced APF prior to it going live. Instanced APF went live and - what do you know? - endgame-equipped toons desirous of doing APF tend to get invited to APF.

    Pande won't be any different.
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    Berinda: Assault rifle

    Wenona: SMG

  12. #12
    Engineers are pretty valuable for Pande. Blockers + reflects help the tank tons (only 3% less reflect than sold). The blockers keep those nasty FA's from blues away. Blinds are -very- useful, especially when you get to the big dood after TNH. If you have a couple of engineers spamming blinds it makes life a lot easier. Trust me. Yes, blinds break when mango is hit, that's why you press the blind button again or have more than one person blinding. And don't forget the awesome job of binding on the platform above the beast.
    Waiting for a cure.

  13. #13
    /me rechecks the dd logs for the last 3 beast raids he went to this week.
    /me notices engie as no.1 DD over epeening shades at all 3 raids.
    /me thinks some people dont realise times have changed.

    I think there are some really outdated ideas on display in your OP gatester.

    At the end of the day, good/smart players, regardless of class, will raid with friends based on rep.
    N00b's/Slackers won't get a re-invite.

    People who have been /follow /afk /!points morons will be shown to be worthless outside of a zerg.
    This will probably result in the (near)death of bots...as people who bust their a$$es will now go and raid with friends at a time thats convenient to them...leaving the slackers to fend (see: wipe) for themselves.

    In short, all profs already DO have a use in pande.
    As always, it's the person at the keyboard that makes the difference.
    Last edited by Kiwidude; Feb 6th, 2009 at 03:50:54.
    Gurudee : 220/20 Doc - General of Pantheon. Eater of Waffulz.
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    __________________________

  14. #14
    what about agents? who's gonna need our uber holograms? xD

  15. #15
    Thread turning out better than i thought so far, was expecting lots of flames

    Will we get new items introduced for pande? If so I can see 220 vets swarming pande like what happened at APF. If not there will be a two groups in addition to those that actually need items, reliable orgmates/players that are willing to go even if they don't require anything and the WTS BoC farmers.

    If pande stays the same then after a few weeks of several simultaneous farms we will definately be hoping for those reliabel vets coming to help the others get what they need. Now we have all the 205-219 people from all the profs and factions looking for pande. Some profs will team easily others will be left behind but ofc they can always get to 220 and likely be able to get teams more easily again.

    Going over everything, there probly won't be much of an issue with people getting their loot from zods, and as far as TNH belts go a week of killing it should supply belts for those that need it. Beast loot and a few of the zods items will be a problem, and if it takes a raid group of 12 nearly 2 hours to get to beast and kill it, then not have BoC drop, groups will value killing speed over anything else.

    Bots become unused, people are doing pande over and over again not getting their loot due to drops or losing rolls, new players that are up and coming getting in on those rolls without any time invested and profs that aren't as useful with more than one in a raid or even seen as needed getting passed up is all possible but its all conjecture too. More than anything in this thread follow its topic, wether or not all profs have a use in pande make sure they are all in someway useful enough to be considered equally.


    As far as the engie thing goes, I know how much damage an engie can do I also know that that is 5% of engies at best in 220 and 0% of 219 and lower engies. The standard engineer is not a DD same as any pet prof.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by gatester View Post
    Will we get new items introduced for pande? If so I can see 220 vets swarming pande like what happened at APF.
    I don't think I know anyone who's "finished" with pande in the sense they have everything they could possibly want. I know several people who zipped into the bots, got the minimum of what they needed, and then didn't go back because of dislike of the zerg/bots. I know I'm one of those people; only things from pande I have are prof stars because I hate the bot system. And despite the fact I don't have any pande loot, I know my soldiers and doctor would be real assets during a raid, my crat will too once she's upper TL7.

    Of course, LE and all the new ability phats coming out really never made me NEED to go to pande for gear, so since there was a viable alternative, I had no reason to suffer through one of Marlark's zergfests for hours of my life.

    While you might not think the "some people hate the bots" argument is viable, when APF became instanced a lot of people with well-equipped endgame toons who had never done APF before because they didn't want to deal with the bots came crawling out of the woodwork across all the factions. These people were, of course, not APF veterans, but they knew enough about playing the game that they were effective once told how the sector played out.
    Quote Originally Posted by kesh View Post
    I heard black troxes have a huge nothing.
    Berinda: Assault rifle

    Wenona: SMG

  17. #17
    I hope the entire concept of Pandemonium changes, in several ways that it keeps it alive long term. If Pandemonium changes go live as I expect they will;

    -The method of entry and leaving changes
    -A non repeatable per toon farm goal, outside of 'old' looting
    -No boss respawning or triggered respawning, yes to regular mobs respawning
    -Entire zone being cut up from the three zones, and made into one much larger one, with various one way travel and solid invisible walls preventing various sneakiness, to fascilitate instancing at all

    then it will be a short lived thing.

    Pandemonium has survived not through any kind of brilliant design, heck, the design of Pandemonium is bloody awful. It's survived because players found a way to make it last forever. Instancing undermines this entirely.

    Eventually larger org groups, and newly created guild orgs will find and master their own systems to keep in-house Pandemonium going for years, but those who don't want to or can't jump on board with these systems will find themselves in a bit of a bother. They wont be excluded. They merely wont be first picks, unless they're utterly essential.

    I hope the public bots survive in some form, be it on scheduled point raiding that noone is excluded from until they screw up, to keep things going on a subsistance level, for anyone who chooses to use said systems. Got doubts about that happening though, for RK2 Omni at least, with our master of bots no longer being active within the community to say the least, and noone seeming to step up and take over.

    One of many situations in recent times where the saying "Be careful what you wish for" really fits, for AO. 17.10 proved that smaller raid groups were not taken into account, when the places were instanced. But we're only starting to feel it now, when absolutely every finaliser is finished with APF, and theres very few enablers left. 28 in particular was the most adversely effected. Team leaders are often belt hunters and try to keep numbers (and in particular, other belt rollers) down as low as they can, but enablers who dont need belts can't stand the slow pace and only average AXP. So you end up with a ragtag bunch of belt rollers that ultimately have a low success rate, until people play the favour card.

    So I firmly believe there will be no real change to Pandemonium, except the zone will get worse, after an initial rush. Unless you choose to sheepify yourself and join the masses, with no connection to the people - simply interested in the opportunities within. This applies to other games already.

    There is still time for us to influence the decision making process, particuarly in making all professions needed but by the same token its going to be a real pain in the neck when you cant find that one <newly> essential person.

    But it'll be great for a while. Eh, we've not been told a single concrete detail beyond it'll be instanced, and early this year, but IMO we've already passed 'early'. We're 10% done with 2009. Until we have some details, or better yet, some testlive, we're really not in any kind of position to judge what will happen. At the end of the day, I firmly believe it'll be a halfarsed effort that works for a while, and then becomes an enormous pain.

    Thankfully, Pandemonium items are becoming less and less relevant. Did full 300 symbiants on a toon recently with just two Pandemonium items (of the 7 I farmed in preparation. None took more than three hours of participation each. No belts, no burden.)

    Eh. Time will tell. My money is on low pop raids with 220 finalisers with their dual loggers in tow, will be the most common form of raiding after a few months - since theres no AXP penalty to consider. The single account player who chooses not to conform by joining a raiding guild will find themselves inconvenienced. Not excluded, but definately knowing what they're missing out on.

    Even more true for the support professions that aren't all that essential, desired sure but you can live without if one is not available. Example, I hear mezzers talked about in this thread. And I've raided with both Omni and Clan (just a few times to tag the beast) on RK2. Omni has a major freakin' panic attack if no mezzer can be found. Clan appears to not even bother with one, though I've only seen clan go a few times and this may be incorrect.

    If I had a point I've probably gotten off it now. Food for thought all the same.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by egadsrk2 View Post
    Even more true for the support professions that aren't all that essential, desired sure but you can live without if one is not available. Example, I hear mezzers talked about in this thread. And I've raided with both Omni and Clan (just a few times to tag the beast) on RK2. Omni has a major freakin' panic attack if no mezzer can be found. Clan appears to not even bother with one, though I've only seen clan go a few times and this may be incorrect.
    Mezzer? When people wipe in Pande it often seems to be due to some tab-happy guy attacking a mob that someone ninja mezzed and thus hate got cleared... Never have I seen anyone to be appointed to mezz duty. I think a total of 2 times I've seen docs appointed to UBT duty - sure, they'll still (probably) do it.
    Eroz, finally 220/26/70 Adventurer & proud General of Regulators on ex-RK2 (outdated) equip
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by egadsrk2 View Post
    block of text
    I think you are right.

    Actually I disagree with instanced pande. Its totally against new players and only benefits those with 2+ accounts, big orgs, lotsa money etc.

    Instanced pande would make getting BoC on the 3rd toon easier, but will not make (or even makes it harder) to acquire on the first toon.

    Not to mention that the farmable TNH will pretty much screw the economy, and its against new players, as many of them farm their starter credz from symbs.

    I know I will be burned by stating this, but pande should be made a bit harder, and by harder I do not mean more adds with higher hp bars, but more tricks for bosses like zods and Beast. Maybe Beast armor could be revisited (similar to what happened with Jathos and Kegern) so more parts will be useful for high-end toons. It would lure more ppl to pande again. The problem with pande I think is that its not a challange anymore, just mere grind if 30+ ppl show up.
    Even the Beast could 100% drop a BoC, but then make it extremely difficult to beat. Its the Game Over boss anyway in SL

    by instanced pande, only Sec42 and Tara remains mass raids, but I already hear the babies crying for instanced tara, and we will probably hear ppl desperately whining for easier sec42 instanced to get their "rightful" ACDC in one night
    Last edited by rimorsimon; Feb 6th, 2009 at 12:06:16.
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  20. #20
    I agree with OP, all professions have a use but some are required or very well sought after and others are not necessary at all and frankly it would be easier if XXXprof was replaced by xxxDDprof.
    The player / equip can change the values however. If I was recruiting for a raid, myself as a trader and looking for the best team I could take I wouldn't recruit another Trader, MP, fixer (unless Dshark one) to be honest. A crat would get a spot. Someone else recruiting would exclude me and get the crat only. NT's have good damage in PVM recently so they might get a look in.

    Now if NSD on boss helped, if AC debuffs did something on bosses, if CC snares / roots / calms (other than pinks and not for crats) could be used reliably in pande then a more balanced raidforce could be used. An optimum raidforce as an ideal maybe should contain one of every prof to make the raid easier not 2 docs , 1 crat , 1 enf and 8 sols/shades etc.
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