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Thread: The Case for Damage-To-Nano

  1. #1

    The Case for Damage-To-Nano

    Damage-to-Nano: Making the case for the MP prof.

    1). Introduction.
    2). The Idea
    3). Why DtN for MP?
    4). Why NOT DtN for MP?
    5). Making DtN work with current tools.
    6). Ideas for MP DtN Nanos.
    7). Horse Trading idea.
    8). Conclusion.


    1). Introduction.

    Another Rage Idea Thread. For those who haven't been up on it, I tend to come up with many ideas on how to improve the profession and it's performance in many areas, in the depths of the MP forums there's quite a few threads I've started or dumped masses of information into over the years on how to improve the profession, how to make it not just more equal to the other profs back when we were best described as walking kleenex with a few extras to take out to something that's a bit more respected with our toolset being able to actually be put into play in PvP, and after getting a direly-needed makeover on how the prof works in the last year or two (has it really been that long) I want to focus on somethign that I think should have been part of our toolset since it's inception, specifically Damage-To-Nano, referenced from here on out as DtN.

    DtN has been out a little while from what I can see, but however my ignorance is going to shine through on this particular mechanic over the course of this essay on why it should be included in the MP toolset and I'm not going tobother trying to hide it with false erudition. My understanding of how it works is that it takes a percentage of the incoming damage, and transfers that damage to nano. Simple, and yet not: I cannot pretend to understand how it works with regards to capped pvp hits, how it interacts with reflects and stacks with them or not, or other fine details that usually make or break such types of mechanics. Add to that reading up on the forums about how some NTs are unhappy with how the mechanic works as intended and you can see how I go into writing this essay with a bit of confusion, if some skilled NT who understands how the mechanics work could fill me in on the parts I'm missing on I will edit the post to reflect that as it is warranted.

    Needless to say, borked or not, I think it's somethign that should have been in the MP toolset upon it's implementation, as opposed to Sacrificial Shielding, which showed it's band-aid nature almost before it even hit the live dimensions. A well-thought out introduction of DtN for the profession would do wonders to solve a lot of the problems that SS was created to handle while remaining in our bailiwick as a caster prof, without needing to give us a nano that hands us tools from all professions mixed together as is found in SS.


    2) The Idea.

    The idea to introduce DtN to the profession is one I've given as much thought to as RK4 will allow, both in terms of game balance as well as in terms of questions MPs have about surviviability in the modern day. SS was one of the first nanos to come out with Lost Eden, and it was to give the profession that was at the time dead last a tool to basically make up for the massive problems that we had in trying to engage with pvp: we had no alpha protection, we could be perked by anyone, damaging our opponents was tough, and roots and snares were a problem for us since we couldn't remove them by nano (and often were busy casting the single deroots on our pets at the time anywho). The problem since then is that while the game state has changed and evolved, SS hasn't, and as a one-shot-solution is showing it's age and inflexibility as a tool in the MP arsenal.

    This is why I suggest we incorporate DtN as part of the MP toolset: it is a powerful but flexible game mechanic, meaning as the game evolves further the nanos including DtN or other parts of our toolset will not so easily be rendered obsolete, but will still give the profession the defensive ability that will be needed in times of skyrocketing AR numbers and the like. For that I have several ideas, lumped into this one 'idea' section.

    The idea I have for DtN nanos to be used by MPs comes in two flavors. This should sound familiar to just about anyone out there, but the idea I have is for a series of nanos that are lower level, everyday usage DtN line that tops out at 30%, castable nano and while I would like it to be castable on others, I could not see it being feasible for several reasons so if it's to be a 'MP Buff' nano it would have to be an aura, which I had hinted at before. This line needs at least 2 iterations, with one for the tl5-6 range (rated at 15% DtN) and one for 220 (at the full 30%).

    This line should be overwritten by the second nano idea I have, which is:

    The 'oh crap' DtN nano should be a shorter duration nano by far and away (I was thinking the low intensity DtN nano would have a duration in hours.), should overwrite the lower intensity nano on cast, and should top out at 60% DtN. Duration of the nano should be short, 30s at best, and should have a lockout of some time attached to it that disables spam-casting of the 'ocrap' nano (assuming you even have the nano left to cast it!) for a little bit, though the question of should the lower intensity nano be disallowed in the time should be left up to those code masters at FC and Means.

    The 3rd way I was intending to introduce DtN for the MP prof is by use of the blue shield nano line MPs have access to. Since the Shield of Zset made it's glorious entrance into the world of the MP, the handful of 1hb users have been comparing everything to it, which is non-productive: 1hb users can still wield a weapon with their shield, while Zset users give up all personal damage in total for their weapon buffs. Regardless, the Shield of Esa went over like a lead balloon, coming out as it did after the Zset shield. My response to this is simply to alter the Blue shield line of nanos (one of the 2 lines MPs utterly ignore at the moment) to include DtN in the shield on wear, along with a much more hefty max nano boost (you'll prolly need it!) than those on the original shields. The top end of DtN on the shields can be debated, my thinking is a new 1hb blue shield with 20%-30% DtN on it with the other shields scaled down to as low as 5% for Notum Defender.


    3). Why DtN for MP?

    Why DtN for MP, this is probably the big question that needs to be answered by everyone considering DtN for the profession in question, and while I can't say I have definitive final answers (I'm basing my whole work here on potentially shaky understanding of how the mechanics work, remember that) I can give you my reasons why I would like to see DtN as 'the MP defense solution' of choice.

    It's a reasonably balanced defense alternative, for starters: It gives a percentage of damage given to nanopool, but nanopool is finite, and under sustained fire will run out, probably not as quickly as bio-coccoon, but will run out much faster than AMS, that soldiers have, under sustained fire from multiple characters.

    We would have in-prof support for it: Most MPs reset nano pool at some point in their career, being able to cast everything FC gives us with 8-10k nanopool and no real need to increase it beyond that. We get more nano from our AI prof perkline that we often ignore, and everything to do with MPs is dripping with +nano, but we don't get to use it because we're usually in nano recharge anyways, and combine that with our stellar -nanocost, means it takes effort to run us out of even the piddly 8k nano (which I did on my soli 220 MP) at 220. MP's need a good reason to consider using nanopool and raising it again, we're supposed to be a heavy caster prof after all.

    It's a better idea than SS: Yes, I admit it, I hate SS. It boils down to which I see as the more elegant solution to the problem of MP defense. SS looks more and more like a band-aid nano as time goes on while DtN looks more flexible, could be easily worked into the MP toolset with little effort, and on top of it all only uses DtN from the NT toolset, not ripping off several other prof's worth of toolset ideas. MPs would have similar alphastrike survivability as they would under SS, and wouldn't feel like they're using a band-aid nano to their profession while they're using it. (BTW: SS is the reason why I went 2hb shield MP in the end.)


    It's a more adaptive solution: I know good MPs all around will argue here, but let's put it this way: AR is going up, MP defense ratings are not. If the case were opposite or static, SS would be fine even as the band-aid nano it is, but since the game is a work in progress and since it evolves, it's a better idea to go with the more flexible solution that will continue to be viable into the future (which SS likley will not) which DtN provides.

    Last, and not even remotely least: it's the more elegant solution, in my mind, than SS. DtN is simple, elegant, and works within the idea of how the MP is supposed to work. It will be a part of the MP toolset that evolves with the MP, as opposed to SS which while intended to be a fix-all nano for the MP in the beginning, doesn't have much flexibilty with it and is already showing not only it's age, but it's limitiation. SS cannot adapt to new situations, while DtN can be as flexible as you want it to be and not come across as overpowered as much as SS does.


    4). Why NOT DtN for MP?

    It boils down to two words, Over Powered, for the most of it, while the secondary argument is the one about how that would make MP the new soldier...or not.

    Combine SS with DtN and you have a truly godlike combination, and I won't even try to argue with it. SS is a powerful nano, and it's been fixing MP defense up to this point as best as it can, so combining 5 spec blockers with the ability to shunt lots of the incoming damage into your nanopool could be really close to godmode. I would be the first to raise complaints if this much defensive potential were handed to one profession.

    Shield MPs: Shield MPs are a different breed from every other MP build out there, they usually come with lots of evades, reflects, and if the shield MP is smart, is already damn near close to unkillable already before any DtN tools are introduced (trust me on this) so adding more damage mitigation to a prof build that specializes in damage mitigation makes the unkillable even closer to the deity than they can be.

    MPs aren't supposed to be soldiers: Pretty much the ideas listed above are basically similar to soldiers (one nano for low-intensity brawling, with a peak nano when things get rough.) and would probably get similar damage reduction if for no other reason than MP players would find a way.



    5). Making DtN work with current tools.

    This is a lot easier than it sounds. MP tools can be quickly adapted to make DtN not only a part of the MP toolset, but a viable and valuable one, even if SS is kept as well in the MP toolset.

    As I have said before, both SS and DtN active on an MP would be overpowered quite a bit, however this problem is easily solved by making sure that they're in the same line, and that DtN has a higher stacking order than SS or vice versa.

    You can have SS or DTN, but not both at once.

    The blue shield idea almost comes naturally just from the fact that the MP toolset has such items that would work well with the idea since they're unused nanos/items that we have had around for ages. I had also considered putting up an idea some time ago for more creation items, back pieces and cloaks with different and unique bonuses for each type with each being slanted towards a different playstyle, and in this DtN could be put to use.

    The next section will be dedicated to ideas for DtN nanos in specific, as well as items in the mode of the blue shield/cloak.


    6). Ideas for MP DtN Nanos.

    I have several ideas for MP DtN nanos and other ways to bring the mechanic into the fold, the first one would look

    like...

    +++
    Nano Crystal (Basic Notum Field)

    Nanocost: 1000 (just a basic guess)

    Duration: 01:00:00 (1 hour)

    Attack skills: MM 34% TS 33% SI 33%

    Def Skills: NR 0%

    Attack Time: 15.00
    Def Time: 5.25

    (Unsure at this time about any other requirements that may need to come into play.

    Effects: 10% damage to nano.

    This nanoprogram allows the metaphysicist to alter the field of notum around a target to be aware of and attempt to intercept incoming attacks. Unlike other methods of reflecting and absorbing damage, this field uses notum itself buffer the incoming damage to some extent, and will depelete the target's nanopool with every successive strike. This particular field is rated at reducing incoming damage by about 10%.

    +++

    This is the example first in the line of lower intensity DtN nanos. This above example would simply be cast upon a target at which time it'd give the target 10% DtN. Later editions of this nano would increase DtN rating by a variable amount depending on the specific nano in the line in question. My personal preference is to have it be a team aura at best, self-only at worst, and not actually castable on another target.

    This next is an example of a low-ql high intensity DtN nano.

    +++

    Nano Crystal (Basic Emergency Notum Dump)

    Nancost: 1000 (once again, basic guess.)

    Duration: 00:00:30 (for starters, this line is most flexible in potential)

    Attack Skills: MM 34, TS 33, SI 33

    Def Skills: NR 0

    Attack Time 0.25 (or less)

    Recharge Time: ? (needs some thinking about here, read below)

    (should have same requirements as the lesser intensity DtN line)

    Effects: 30-60% DtN

    Used in times of extreme danger, this nanoprogram mobilizes all nanobots in your personal field of notum to focus primarily on defense by using much more notum to try to soak up all incoming attacks. This results in much less damage getting through to harm the Meta-Physicist, however their personal reserves of notum will deplete much quicker as a result, possibly resulting in completely emptying the nanopool altogether.

    ++++

    (continued...)

  2. #2
    (continued from previous post)

    The only problem with this is how to balance it out. Excessive recharge on a nano like this would be bad, since if you're using it you're already in hot water and need to have the ability to cast, which has the entertaining balance of making you run out of nano FASTER. This should not be spammable and should have some sort of lockout much like the adventurer morph heals or morph damage boosts. However, having an empty nanopool would prevent casting just as easily, so this one needs work before sorting out, however it tends to balance itself in many ways, since MP's need nano to cast their stuff and this gives them good defense at the cost of running them out of their ability to cast, albeit temporarily.

    The next listing is an example of altering Mocham's Guard to reflect it's new status as a DtN shield.
    ++++

    Mocham's Guard

    ql 180

    Left Hand

    Equip: 4.0

    Attack: 1.0
    Recharge: 8.0

    Damage 1-1 (1) melee

    Initiative skill: Melee init

    Multi-Melee: 308

    To Equip: TS 936, 1hb 618

    Attack skill TS 8%, 1hb 2%

    def skill: Evade-cls 100%

    Effects:

    All ACs: 300-450 (I'm assuming there will eventually be one more nano in this shield line like the new Shield of Esa)
    Nano Resist: In the area of 200-300, 300 more preferable
    Max Nano: + 2k
    Nanocost Modifier: -10%
    Damage To Nano of 20-30% (if a new shield is in the works, 20%)

    This shield is created through the solidification of matter by a skilled meta-physicist. This particular type of shield has had notum worked into the shield. This notum acts as a catalyst for nanobot renewal, greatly increasing the size of the wielder's nanobot cloud. This shield also contains strange nanoprograms embedded inside, utilzing some of that nanobot cloud to help the meta-physicist withstand attacks better.

    ++++

    The Blue shield line should eventually have another new top-end replacement giving 30% damage to nano, while Mocham's Guard ideally should have 20-21% damage to nano, with other bonuses properly recalculated.


    7). Horse Trading.

    Yes, it all looks like it'll be very over powered, I can hear the nerf cries from everywhere else coming in and I haven't even hit the "send" button yet. Most of these are in the preliminary stages, but this is the part where I say that there's one thing we could easily trade for DtN to keep MPs reasonable but flexible in the defensive end of things.

    What's that thing? Sacrificial shielding, really. (Not like you couldn't see this one coming.) SS is a powerful defensive tool, DtN is also a powerful defensive tool. FC can take SS and remove it outta game, we the MP profession could have DtN as a functioning and viable defensive option for our toolset.

    DtN doesn't sound as scary when you consider the fact that the Trader propensity to spam GTH on any passing caster, frankly.

    So how about it? Wanna get rid of SS and see if DtN's a better fit instead?



    8). Conclusion

    This has been a true wall of text to bring up, but to sum it up is fairly simple. Damage to Nano is a potentially useful way to answer the problems of MP defense that SS cannot handle, it's more flexible with the MP toolset as it currently sits, is more in line with how our profession is 'viewed' as a caster prof, and it can also bring new life to parts of our toolset that are long ignored.



    *whew* Multi-page post ftw. Comments and ideas are welcome, btw, keep the flames out please though.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Dancingrage View Post
    This has been a true wall of text to bring up
    Ya think?


    Quote Originally Posted by Dancingrage View Post
    So how about it? Wanna get rid of SS and see if DtN's a better fit instead?
    Won't happen. FC is extremely reluctant to remove items. You could probably count the items they've actually removed (so engie silverback wouldn't count) on one hand.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dancingrage View Post
    MPs aren't supposed to be soldiers
    Quote Originally Posted by Dancingrage View Post
    The idea I have for DtN nanos to be used by MPs comes in two flavors. This should sound familiar to just about anyone out there, but the idea I have is for a series of nanos that are lower level, everyday usage DtN line that tops out at 30%, castable nano and while I would like it to be castable on others, I could not see it being feasible for several reasons so if it's to be a 'MP Buff' nano it would have to be an aura, which I had hinted at before. This line needs at least 2 iterations, with one for the tl5-6 range (rated at 15% DtN) and one for 220 (at the full 30%).

    This line should be overwritten by the second nano idea I have, which is:

    The 'oh crap' DtN nano should be a shorter duration nano by far and away (I was thinking the low intensity DtN nano would have a duration in hours.), should overwrite the lower intensity nano on cast, and should top out at 60% DtN. Duration of the nano should be short, 30s at best, and should have a lockout of some time attached to it that disables spam-casting of the 'ocrap' nano (assuming you even have the nano left to cast it!) for a little bit, though the question of should the lower intensity nano be disallowed in the time should be left up to those code masters at FC and Means.
    That sounds awful soldier-like to me. (Think reflects/AMS.)



    Anyway, I'm not sure if I agree with the implementation, but the idea is certainly sound. It'd also bring in a relatively little used game mechanic, something that Means certainly likes.

  4. #4
    This really is just a first shot at how I'd like to see it work for the MP. Yes, very soldier-like indeed, but that's the problem of long term, short intensity vs short term, high intensity type defenses like this.

    I've got to get another post up re: reworking the 1hb shields...well, the yellow one at any rate.

    At any rate, the fun and problematic thing I see (sorta, auno's nano listings aren't good for sorting out how DtN works for NTs) is from what little I can tell, NTS have the same sort of setup as this idea of mine would, with one lower intensity and one for the 'o crap' moments, but I can't be sure in total. That said, we wouldn't likely top out as high as NTs would, since I have a set goal of a 60% as opposed to (what I could guess) as the NM NT's 90%.

    It does need work but this is the idea, I'd heard folks wanting some DtN love and I figured I'd do a massive writeup and see if any of these ideas are worth using.

  5. #5
    I've always liked the basic idea of Damage to Nano for an MP. Not sure that I'd agree entirely with the implementations suggested here... but the basic idea is good. You can't really remove SS though - so some kind of mechanic to ensure both aren't used at the same time (SS lockout added into the DtN nano mebbe?) or balancing so that the two could co-exist would be necessary.

    The one thing I'd say, is that a somewhat similar type of functionality that I think would fit the MP template even better, would be a damage to pet nano. Something where a percentage of damage is removed for the MP and a multiple of that damage applied to the attack pet instead. However, I think the mechanics of doing that is potentially much more challenging.

    The other comment I'd make is that there's been some suggestion from MetaIng to Klod that damage debuffs might be improved for PvP. As yet another damage reduction option, it's unlikely that we'd see all these things together - so we may need to see what kind of shape that damage debuff extension might take.

    X
    Last edited by XtremTech; Jan 24th, 2009 at 09:54:14.
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  6. #6
    From what I can tell, X, that was the intention to some extent for Sacrificial shielding in the beginning, but getting damage to pet didn't seem to work out like they wanted it to.

  7. #7
    IMO, that's how SS should have been made from the start.

    It should have damaged nano pool in a first place. Maybe then it could have its recharge removed (or at least lowered to some 10 seconds), since it couldn't be spammed on self (12k nanopool over 30 sec would hurt) and it would be worth casting on others (it would eat their nano, but give them AAO).

    Maybe I got it wrong (since I haven't read that block of text at all ), I stopped at "Damage to Nano".
    Last edited by Klod; Jan 24th, 2009 at 12:51:59.
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Klod View Post
    it would be worth casting on others (it would eat their nano, but give them AAO).
    Casting on others shouldn't happen for a couple reasons.

    1) The method you suggested isn't damage to nano.

    2) DTN is gonna screw them up. Most profs rely on casting something to survive. While there are a few profs who don't, the majority of profs are gonna get *TICKED* at you if you drain all their nano right when they most need it. (Imagine what a soldie is gonna say if you drained his nano right before he popped AMS?)

    3) Profs that DON'T need nano (shades and keepers) would become quite powerful with DtN, which brings in a whole slew of balance issues.

    Adding it to be castable on others bring up a whole lot of issues and makes it much more complex. Should keep it self only at least for the first iteration, and keep it simple.

  9. #9
    Depending on when they calculate the PVP caps, this could either be very good or fairly pointless. Agents, soldiers, traders, and other bow MPs will be able to "GTH" us with a couple hits if it's pre-cap/reflec. If it is calculated the same way coon is, it is likely AS mps (who don't have shiny nanodelta because of AS in right wrist) will prefer SS to this. It will also need a trigger like the NM shield to deactivate before nano reaches zero.
    bai2u!
    -::l2pvp!1::-
    Electronite: FFA also destroyed Clan hegemony when it comes to tower wars. Ironically the downfall was started by the most active pvpers. Another ironic thing is that the downfall happened due to pvm conflict. Silirrion: (We have pretty good anti-troll filters by now though) Means: Thong-wearing troxes will always be a part of this game and a point of AO pride. Keldros: Obviously reall trolls don't use conditioner Marlark: If this forum was Swedish in it's language .. id pawn you any day. 220 NT: tl7 is a joke most of the time. 90% of the people are double double dead. some are worth debuffing tho. Mastablasta: you guys are right and I'm wrong. Ebag: No. You alpha me'd due to the stat bug. More Ebag: I don't have any twinks currently, nor do I participate much in mass TL7 PvP (though I do go occasionally, usually just to watch). Questra: an MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    Casting on others shouldn't happen for a couple reasons.

    1) The method you suggested isn't damage to nano.
    The method I implied was supposed to be the same 15 tick, 800 hit, 2 second delay (not halved at PvP) damage, but to nano (choice to cast it on self - suffer nano loss, but full current SS beneficial effect, or choice to cast on other - 30 sec nano drain, but also an AAO boost).

    It damages nano, but not in the way Rage suggested. This is still offensive nano, with SS beneficial part.

    2) DTN is gonna screw them up. Most profs rely on casting something to survive. While there are a few profs who don't, the majority of profs are gonna get *TICKED* at you if you drain all their nano right when they most need it. (Imagine what a soldie is gonna say if you drained his nano right before he popped AMS?)
    DTN that Rage suggested is actually a NBG ripoff, what I'm suggesting is nerfed version of GTH, with blockers.

    3) Profs that DON'T need nano (shades and keepers) would become quite powerful with DtN, which brings in a whole slew of balance issues.
    They would retain exactly the same offensive ability as if they were hit by today's SS.

    Adding it to be castable on others bring up a whole lot of issues and makes it much more complex. Should keep it self only at least for the first iteration, and keep it simple.
    I like my idea more. It is more spiritual like (totally MP theme), it burns nano (AO version of spiritual energy/mana?) to give beneficial effect to caster, but enrages the target in the process (similar to SS, but it's not the same).

    It's not complex at all. It acts exactly like SS, but it damages nano, not HP. Recharge should be lowered to 10 seconds ofc and number of blockers reduced.

    I reckon agents would hate this one soooooooooo much more, even more then GTH.
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Stabby View Post
    OMG u alr got spec blockers and gridarmor-rrfe shield how would u justify this?
    Easy.

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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    That sounds awful soldier-like to me. (Think reflects/AMS.)

    Yeah but the rest is the same, jump on the zerg and charge everything that moves.
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  13. #13
    @Ebag: The NT version looks to have a similar setup actually, NBG stacks higher in the nanobot shielding line than any of the nanobot shelter nanos. The only real difference is from what I can see is that my idea has several nanos in the line and tops out at a much lower amount than the NT line does.

    @ Chrys: I don't know the specifics of how DtN works for NTs in pvp, and that's sort of the big weak point above and beyond it all for this discussion. If it just handles the pvp capped damage to hp being shunted over than it'd probably be a potentially better tool than SS, but if it caps nanopool damage then it looks pretty pointless. These are things I don't understand about how this particular piece of game mechanics works, and I'm really surprised I haven't seen any NTs weigh in on it already.

    @Klod: you seem to have gotten the wrong idea of what I was thinking in the first reading and thought it'd be doing damage to the OPPONENT's nano, which in pvm would be utterly useless since mobs can have insanely stupid amounts of nanopool. Reworking SS to just do ticks of nanodrain is a different story and if you like it enough you could probably look at writing it up as a separate idea.

    @ Stabby: I'd mentioned a few ways of balancing the nanos: by stacking them higher than SS in the same line, or by trading SS for them (assuming FC was interested in removing SS altogether). Ebag is right in that FC almost never removes anything, but I like to keep the idea and option open, just in case.

    The big problem I see is still the one that I had when I wrote this monster: my complete lack of knowledge on how DtN works in terms of pvp hits and capped hits. Anyone mind bugging the local NTs they know to see if this idea is even viable without having to have Izgimmer's Wealth? I think what's needed is a very complete understanding of how this mechanic works from an NT point of view, so we can see if this is even a viable idea first before anything else.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Dancingrage View Post
    @ Stabby: I'd mentioned a few ways of balancing the nanos: by stacking them higher than SS in the same line, or by trading SS for them (assuming FC was interested in removing SS altogether). Ebag is right in that FC almost never removes anything, but I like to keep the idea and option open, just in case.
    how to balance it wasnt really my point, its that since the variety of viable mp builds has recently grown in a geometric scale the whining and bitching from other profs would be off the chart if another one was added. Smart thing for fc to do would be to populate all profs with multiple build choices(since they are all about forcing options on the playerbase nowdays instead of leting things play out by themselves) before coming back to this one.. then again fc has done some epicly stupid things before so u never know.

  15. #15
    It would be nice for other profs besides MPs and Advies to have multiple viable build choices bar the fact that unless there were pretty much the same stats on, say, any concieved shotgun for soldiers (for an alternate build idea) as the D-shark, they'd get ignored. The tendency for folks to gravitate towards what's percieved as the 'best build possible' is pretty consistent for most everyone else, while advies have 2 choices based more on style than what's uber, and MPs have both one of the worst AR templates AND no real dedicated weaponskill or set of weaponskills like other profs do.

    What eventually happens is the crowd will descend on any new item introduced and decree it as either 'gimp' or 'uber' depending entirely on how it compares to current existing equipment. This even happened in the MP forums after the Shield of Zset came out, after THAT FC decided to introduce the new 1hb creations and they got the 'it's gimp' treatment since after the sewper shield, nothing really is gonna have a hope in the hot and hairy place of managing to look like it could even remotely compete.

    If this happens in the MP forum, how do you think any other 'alternate build' ideas will be treated in the other profession forums. That said, sure, I think breaking everyone out of the 'cookie-cutter' would be nice, but you'll have to convince them of it first.

  16. #16
    the NBG idea in a weaker form wouldn't have been bad idea for MP's but the way it works for NT's now.. there is no way it could go along with current Mp tools. I for one wouldnt want to give up SS or my shield truth be told. I hate the recharge on SS that keeps me from nuking, but i just take that time to perk up my pets anyway.

    and as far as 1hb mp's for pvm its prob the best build available overall. but not all builds are equal in all scenerios. EXAMPLE docs and engis can do pistol, ranged energy, MA, shotgun, obviously though some are more preferable choices than others.
    ~Anyone can level, but only the wise gain experience~

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  17. #17
    Still wanting to hear more feedback and some input from NTs as to how NBG and Nanobot shelter work since this idea seems to have a lot hanging on stuff I don't understand at this moment.

  18. #18
    Excellent post! The idea is great let FC work out the specifics of how it should be implemented. It would seems to work with the MP template very well IMO.

    Keep up the good work!

  19. #19
    Oi! Hands off my toolset!

    You already robbed Engies and Agents
    Member of Spartans
    Hacre/Solitus/Keeper/220/29/70 - Ninpopotamus/Solitus/NT/220/30/70 - Charmming/Opifex/Crat/220/30/70
    Quote Originally Posted by randomalpha View Post
    in the end soldier is not Op or even near from that never was never will be just for the record only keepers are the ones before soldiers on the nerfest list
    Genius at work.

  20. #20
    Haw. You missed the part where I offered up the almighty SS to the FC gods for something that's more useful in a fight.

    Any rate, you have an NT hiding around, IIRC, how the hell does DtN work? This massive wall of text I have sitting here is pretty pointless if damage to nano caps on nano instead of HP, etc, and the 100s of other questions that I've had on the matter, so since you've introduced yourself into this thread, gief answers! The questions are all hiding around somewhere in this thread, so gief!

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