Friday with Means - January 23rd, 2009

[Gunfytr]

Kinda liking the "Sapper" slant to this. Command detonated mines would be cool.

[Ayria]

I think all the time spent whining is sapping from Engineers time thinking of tactical deployment methods for these new mines.

The common theme I seem to be garnering from posts from some is that mines are another useless "here don't say I never gave you anything" type of addition because they don't AS or Triple a passer by.

Tactical deployment doesn't always mean killing your target, what people fail to realize is that a war isn't about killing the entire side, it's about making sure the other side can't fight back. Be that gained by killing them all or taking them out of the fight via snare/nano drain etc.

A 10K nano drain would severely hurt Agents, if it didn't drain us dry right there we'd be dry soon from needing to CH should someone be camping out near a mine. If no one is there we still have to sit, not capping points and not killing anyone, and recharge our nano. It's the same thing with GTH, do you see people bitching cause it kills them? No, it's because they're out of the fight.

The snare mine, running to B (if you're Omni) and passing by the spawn spot... POOF, snared, oh **** there's a couple Clan coming out of decon and I'm snared shiiiiiitttt.... oh hai decon! (Nano mine works well here too vs nano dependent profs).

Stop thinking that you're gona get a bunch of kills by yourself or that the only way to win a war is by genocide. Plant a mine and forget it, laugh when some Soldier thanks you on OOC cause he got a free kill thanks to being near a Snare/Nano mine when xxx profession came by.

A good analogy, back to BF2142 the Engineer kit in that game has the ability to lay AV Motion-Mines that float after vehicles and blow em up, so because you can't drive past the general vicinity of said mines and generally by the time you know they're there they know you're there people have to get out of their vehicle (tank/apc etc) or die to the mines. Well, once out they're on foot and boom, Recon (sniper) in the waiting can take the headshot not otherwise possible if they were safe in a Tank.

At the very least it forces them to abandon their vehicle and go on foot to their destination, a sever disadvantage as having a Tank to fight with would be a lot better then a foot soldier.

Tactics, brain power, I know it's tough for people who think killing is the only way to win but there are many many more ways mines can be used tactically.

[shadowgod]

I think all the time spent whining is sapping from Engineers time thinking of tactical deployment methods for these new mines.

The common theme I seem to be garnering from posts from some is that mines are another useless "here don't say I never gave you anything" type of addition because they don't AS or Triple a passer by.

Tactical deployment doesn't always mean killing your target, what people fail to realize is that a war isn't about killing the entire side, it's about making sure the other side can't fight back. Be that gained by killing them all or taking them out of the fight via snare/nano drain etc.

A 10K nano drain would severely hurt Agents, if it didn't drain us dry right there we'd be dry soon from needing to CH should someone be camping out near a mine. If no one is there we still have to sit, not capping points and not killing anyone, and recharge our nano. It's the same thing with GTH, do you see people bitching cause it kills them? No, it's because they're out of the fight.

The snare mine, running to B (if you're Omni) and passing by the spawn spot... POOF, snared, oh **** there's a couple Clan coming out of decon and I'm snared shiiiiiitttt.... oh hai decon! (Nano mine works well here too vs nano dependent profs).

Stop thinking that you're gona get a bunch of kills by yourself or that the only way to win a war is by genocide. Plant a mine and forget it, laugh when some Soldier thanks you on OOC cause he got a free kill thanks to being near a Snare/Nano mine when xxx profession came by.

A good analogy, back to BF2142 the Engineer kit in that game has the ability to lay AV Motion-Mines that float after vehicles and blow em up, so because you can't drive past the general vicinity of said mines and generally by the time you know they're there they know you're there people have to get out of their vehicle (tank/apc etc) or die to the mines. Well, once out they're on foot and boom, Recon (sniper) in the waiting can take the headshot not otherwise possible if they were safe in a Tank.

At the very least it forces them to abandon their vehicle and go on foot to their destination, a sever disadvantage as having a Tank to fight with would be a lot better then a foot soldier.

Tactics, brain power, I know it's tough for people who think killing is the only way to win but there are many many more ways mines can be used tactically.

sadly, here in AO.. people refuse to think in such ways so long FC keeps "rewarding" players that do the killing. (thnx sil for that! )

[ArienSky]

Getting a team? Shut up and make my armor. Tower War? Shut up and warp people. Orbital Strikes? Shut up and plant jamming towers. Battlestation? Shut up and give blockers. And soon to come, shut up and plant mines.

What, you're not having any fun?

I am sad to hear that you are not having fun.
But I would like to hear where you got the idea that Engineers should be self-sufficient killing machines?

To quote the Engineer description when you make the charecter: "The Engineer's weapon skills are not that great. All engineers learn to create powerful protective shields"

What is your view on doctors? When they are in a team would you then like them to deal out damage instead of healing? Should traders shoot instead of drain?

Each profession has it's place.
I do not think it is fun to play a healer, so I have tried rolling a doc and stoped early on.
If I would follow your line of thought, then instead I should have leveled the un-fun profession and then later complain that it is not fun and have it changed..?


Some like healing, so those people can play a doctor.
Some people like supporting others, they can roll Agent/Engineer/Trader/MP/Enforcer.
Some like being self-sufficient, they can roll an adventurer/Keeper/MA/Trader/MP.
Others like dealing out a great deal of damage, they can roll Soldier/Shade/Fixer.

Again, I am sad that you have invested a lot of time into a profession you do not like. But were you not warned?
AO is not balanced for 1vs1 and the character creation menu tells the pros and cons of professions. And there are further information in the manual.

I like that the professions are different and not just all the same.

Kind Regards
Ariensky

[SSK]

Arien, you mispalced enf with fixer

[Uaintseenme]

sadly, here in AO.. people refuse to think in such ways so long FC keeps "rewarding" players that do the killing. (thnx sil for that! )

FC do not balance for 1v1 pvp, yet they reward 1v1 pvp..
So the simple and most effective option being "remove solo pvp titles" as those are the only "rewards" that i can see for 1v1.
in BS you get VP no matter what your role for your side is, in Tower war you get tower benefits regardless of what your role is for your faction during battle.

[IHaveHugeNick]

On a more positive note, if mines are not viewed as a fix for some current engineer issues (e.g. concerning pets and kiting) but instead as an add-on bonus, then indeed nobody is forcing you to sit back and babysit your mines.

Yep, but the problem is, as someone above already mentioned, both nanodrain and the snare are already a part of our toolset. And both are broken.

And people can say a hundred times it wont affect our future content upgrades, but i just touched my magic orb, i see that half year from now, the future me just made a thread asking for improvements in those areas, and everyone there is talking about these uber mines i have...

[madrid]

I thought Means said in a previous post that AI armor is over powered and items like it will never be put in game again. With this in mind, instancing player cities seems to be completely counter intuitive. You will now have way more people with AI armor....

If the issue trying to be addressed is player shops why not just make more shop buildings allowable in a city. But allowing everyone to have their own little city seems to be a complete contradiction to some previous thoughts from Means.

As far as "profession balancing" can't wait to see what happens here. Usually "profession balancing" means nerfing the things everyone whines the most about without any real insight into what you're really trying to balance. Hopefully a different approach can be taken this time but I'm not holding my breath

Looking forward to the new instance, dying for some new content in game. Hopefully its fun.

[IHaveHugeNick]

On the second note, i'm not very surprised to see how many people suffer from lack of reading comprehension. Everyone is writing essays about killing power . Where did i say a WORD about killing power?

I don't mind having the support role.
I dont mind the support tools.

Snares and nanodrains i like. Mines i dont. I do mind dull and uncreative implementation for those support tools.

And this was only complaint i ever made in this thread.

So kindly, now go stay into the Internet Corner of Shame, you will have a chance to make some friends with other people who cant read.

[Hacre]

I thought Means said in a previous post that AI armor is over powered and items like it will never be put in game again. With this in mind, instancing player cities seems to be completely counter intuitive. You will now have way more people with AI armor....

If the issue trying to be addressed is player shops why not just make more shop buildings allowable in a city. But allowing everyone to have their own little city seems to be a complete contradiction to some previous thoughts from Means.

As far as "profession balancing" can't wait to see what happens here. Usually "profession balancing" means nerfing the things everyone whines the most about without any real insight into what you're really trying to balance. Hopefully a different approach can be taken this time but I'm not holding my breath

Looking forward to the new instance, dying for some new content in game. Hopefully its fun.

But they're not putting AI armour in the game -again-. If anything a higher supply evens out the playing field, which nullifies the overpowered nature. Something is only over powered if you have it and your opponent doesn't. If you both have the item, then the power is equal.

Anyone serious about PvP already has the AI armour they need or are currently working to get it. Either way, they'll have it. So the only real change will be what we saw with the advent of S10, cheaper bots and a more ready supply.

[Darkirbiskaa]

The instanced nature of these playfields will make it impossible to have player owned shops...but the city bonuses and alien attacks should now be available to everyone.

I thought that city bonuses and AI city raids are only for owners cause as owners we have to pay every month for our city.
Are you planning to abandon rental of land for owners "normal" city?
What about that "all users of city controler,but no real owners of city" they have to put some credits and these credits will reduce final sum for city owners?
Yes,player shops are big difference,but almost all with AI expansion are in org with city and I think this "FFA AI raids in every city" is only exploitation for farmers. Maybe add some lock as in apf raids?
Please convince me that my opinion is wrong :/

[Technogen]

It is wrong because you are interpreting what he said wrong. The instances arent' for a team, they are for orgs to own like the current cities.

Think of it like a current city, that you don't get to pick the layout of, and has no org market.

[nums214]

Yay for new servers. Yay for mines. Yay for prof balancing (yea, sure... explain to me why Soldiers are listed as "Damage profs" next to shades when engis, ma's, docs OD them, and shades double their damage.)

so lets assume the bot drop rate stays at 10%-20%... meanwhile cred farmers can create a new account, place 8 diff toons in 8 diff cities, and mass farm while dual logged( or quad logged, etc. 2 people for each ground raid.)

Only thing adding more "temp" or "instanced" cities will do is make farmers richer, unless they really shaft the drop rate. (So more cities, and less bots.) I just don't understand why we would want to "Add more cities" when most of the "bigger" orgs have a city, or two.

Do we plan on "increasing" the limit of credits a toon can hold, since one alien CC 300 peice costs 500-600 million? (and org banks can only hold 4B.)

I like the idea of letting froobs into HQ though does this mean they can use GMS too?

Since we're stealing Ideas from Age of Conan (since we saw how well with cheap, instanced cities available to anyone that could spend 30 minutes farming credits)
can we setup GMS shops so we don't have to WALK to pick up items, and can just buy directly from gms?

[Hacre]

Yay for new servers. Yay for mines. Yay for prof balancing (yea, sure... explain to me why Soldiers are listed as "Damage profs" next to shades when engis, ma's, docs OD them, and shades double their damage.)

so lets assume the bot drop rate stays at 10%-20%... meanwhile cred farmers can create a new account, place 8 diff toons in 8 diff cities, and mass farm while dual logged( or quad logged, etc. 2 people for each ground raid.)

Only thing adding more "temp" or "instanced" cities will do is make farmers richer, unless they really shaft the drop rate. (So more cities, and less bots.) I just don't understand why we would want to "Add more cities" when most of the "bigger" orgs have a city, or two.

Do we plan on "increasing" the limit of credits a toon can hold, since one alien CC 300 peice costs 500-600 million? (and org banks can only hold 4B.)

I like the idea of letting froobs into HQ though does this mean they can use GMS too?

Since we're stealing Ideas from Age of Conan (since we saw how well with cheap, instanced cities available to anyone that could spend 30 minutes farming credits)
can we setup GMS shops so we don't have to WALK to pick up items, and can just buy directly from gms?

Learn economics, then come back.

[Wrangeline]

Snares and nanodrains i like. Mines i dont. I do mind dull and uncreative implementation for those support tools.

If the effects of mines were put into the game in the form of nanos or perks, like always, then it would have been uncreative and dull. Mines are original, creative and interesting in comparison. At least I think so. Mines bring a whole new concept and game mechanic to AO PvP so I don't really see what is so uncreative about it.

[IHaveHugeNick]

Mines are original, creative and interesting in comparison..

Simply, no. 90% of games that exist out there and have some kind of profession based system, have Engineers and those Engineers usually have some kind of mines.

Mind blowing creativity indeed. This is on the level of creativity of me eating my sandwich upside down.

And yes before you say, i totally made up that 90%.

[IHaveHugeNick]

On another note, why are people freaking out about instanced AI cities?

Afraid farm cities will loose a lot value, arent we? Better sell while you still can...

[Mekh]

Cities dropping in value would be great....


and yes, we have a city

[bungerman]

If the effects of mines were put into the game in the form of nanos or perks, like always, then it would have been uncreative and dull. Mines are original, creative and interesting in comparison. At least I think so. Mines bring a whole new concept and game mechanic to AO PvP so I don't really see what is so uncreative about it.

If you can't see the difference between placing a mine and hoping some steps on it and a nano you can actively try to land on someone then you are lost on this argument. Maybe gth should come in mine form instead?

[Technogen]

Maybe goth should come in mine form instead?

The last thing I need a landmine that makes me **** bats.