The Dragon & Morgan

[_____________Condaan]

Cemetarygate, I'm actually fine with either method. I was just trying to point out another equally fair method of distribution. In the long term, it evens out either way.

Jayde, we're obviously coming from 2 very different backgrounds, and maybe should just cease discourse...hehe. RK1 and RK2 have completely different dynamics, thus we're not really dealing with apples and apples. All I can say, is that in other games, when I've lead raids, any 'invited' guests of those raids were informed up front as to their status for loot. This helps to alleviate misunderstandings and hard feelings at the end. The Clanners who run RK1 raids (I'm not one of them) choose to do things a certain way. I happen to agree with most of the rules, and know for a fact that they are trying to be as fair as possible, thus respect their decision on all of the rules.

Geal, it seems you took the analogy a bit too literally. My point was this: right is right, wrong is wrong. If you really play a clanner main, why not just relax and wait out the time on your omni char?

Condaan

[Killrmeta]

Perhaps a better solution would be once someone wins an item, they can't win it again for a certain period of time....maybe a week or two. Or maybe they can't win it for the next x number of raids.

[_____________Kungwho]

*Big sigh.* This clanner feels one helluva lot of heartfelt appreciation for Asmoran's efforts to create Tarabot fairly (for the sake of all clanners) and for his exertions defending it here, for the Tarabot administrators implementing it, and *sighs* when he witnesses on occasion an absence of this appreciation that occasionally arises in this thread.

/me shakes my head with incredulity.

The positions as to fairness--the single v. multiple event point of view--are both valid and legitimate, as you recognize. I personally favor the single-event position--for the more important problem with this position to me is not that the same folks can win over and over again (if they participate all the time and luck swings their way)--it's that these folks are greedy enough to take it over and over again at everyone else's expense. They should enjoy the fun of Tara, but also the fun of seeing others get precious loot for the first time. Thus, focusing on the unfairness of a random raffle (the organization) is somewhat off the mark when the problem lies with greedy players partaking in it--any set of the "fairest" rules can be distorted by greedy players.

As for Neutrals participating in loot--if they are allowed to register with Tarabot, and they participate, then have earned the right to loot. This is not only fair and generous, but politic for far-sighted Clanners who need Neutral support in this war on OT Corp. I don't think anyone is accusing you Azz of being personally greedy, I certainly was not (you can unquestionably steal as much loot as you want from most of us lol (esp with your 15% llts and a ready team of lvl 200s lol)--and thus your agreement to a lvl 125 requirement I think rightly shows your absence of personal greed). But for me it was an issue of factional greediness--Clanners are being excessively greedy in an unpolitic and unwise manner--bad policy toward Neutrals if we care about winning this war against OT Corp, or at a minimum care to side with notions of true Justice in this war.

As to Truuth's being banned for having an Omni alt, I think this rule is unwise and borders on the preposterous. For in fact this cannot be the rule. The rule is more like this, "Anyone who admits having an Omni alt is banned," which I hope most would agree is ridiculous. For in my experience--and I am sworn not to name names lol--the rule as applied to Truuth is broken more often than followed by serious gamers who wish to experience all that AO has to offer. That Truuth has publicly admitted to having an Omni alt does not seem adequate grounds for banning, unless she plays unfair with it (and no allegation as to this has been made). Thus, whether someone in fact has an Omni alt should be no part of the equation as to participating in Tarabot (which significantly is a marginal RP context, and mainly a loot specials context), and neither should someone admitting to one. I think I in fact still have an Omni alt--poor level 2 or 3 trader lol--played some 5 months ago for the sheer fun and curiosity of it. Guess I'm now banned as well? Not a good rule.

I thought that my friend Ishomni (a Tara admin) had left me a tell saying that Truuth had been unbanned. But perhaps I was mistaken. If she has not been unbanned, then Asmoran please unban her, for not only is the "Omni alt rule" a questionable one, but it is arbitrarily applied in the present case because it was not publicized beforehand and is not obvious. At most a warning is in order here. Banning, instead of a more reasonable warning, will unfortunately lead fair-minded folks to wonder whether personal conflicts clouded the issue as to Truuth--a development which will erode the good will developed thus far by you, Tarabot, and all the Tarbot participants and administrators.

Lastly, I think serious consideration should be made to leave Morgan out of Tarabot, to return her to the playfield of Anarchy, but am too tired to recite the arguments for this lol.

[geal]

amen..well put kung

[frakk2k]

As for dragon loot, I agree on 125+.

I was trying hard to reach 125, and now I finally made it. As for neutrals, im cool with them beeing with on the loots. They are after all neutrals, they don't take sides. as long as they don't attack any of the clanners inside the pvp zone, im good.

As for morgan:

I actually think it is kinda lame that it is 125+ for that one to.

I think 75+ would be better. And only ma/advs could join in on the raffle. Do a separate raffle/kill team for morgan.

Of course, im not neutral in this debate, since I am in a big guild that often participate at tara raids.

(to be frankly; A dragon in a sci-fi game? err.. And knights and camelot?.. err.. Some midgaar dev's got bored and had a guest developer day at Ao?)

[Sumini]

Originally posted by aaronb


And how is that greed? That person went to the raid, participated, earned the right to enter the raffle, and won. The greed in this situation is the inability to look past the coat he was already wearing. Why does having a coat already change the value of his participation? He earned the same right that you did... to enter the raffle.

The "greed" aspect is apparent, as already described, when someone wins a valued item for the 4th time etc. They should be more than satisfied with winning one of these items and not feel the need to enter over and over. How can that be "not greedy"? heh. Maybe its permissable in the "system" but its anti-social and as raids are supposed to be for all clanners blah blah working together blah blah.. have a bit if community spirit then!

nm.. we are talking about loot . So thats never going to happen.

Although the Organisers state that they would "hope" someone who has already won item would have the decency not to enter raffle for it again (so they know its not nice to the majority), there is no measure in place to prevent this. When someone ends up with 4 HPOs the Tarabot system will be more open for critiscism than it would if code was added to prevent items being won by previous winners.

People attend Tara to try and get some special item that many people have worked together to achieve. One item per attendee is not that hard to control and would prevent people using Tara as a source of income or to dress their Twinks up. This puts a damper on the spirit of many who attend regularly without a sniff or loot which they would actually like to use on their Main!! (shock horror)

If Person A already has HPO for example and needs another for twink, then they better level that twink to 125+ and enter with it. Not an outrageous proposal is it? Odds will be the same of them winning but it would prevent any ill will / mistrust / jealousy even, that is sometimes displayed at raids.

If those who have won it all already decide to move on from Tara (its not compulsory u know ) it shouldnt be a problem, there are no shortage of people levelling up to fill the gaps with their sights set on getting their first piece of T loot.

[iguanoid]

Hehe, did you get banned too Sum?
who were the banned ones?

I have been into Camelot with my own teams to take down mobs, and will continue to do so, regardless of shouting, regardless of any systems imposed. If i stumbled accross Morgana de Faye i would try and take her, and if people are going to take the stance that independants dont have the right to even access camelot that is plain selfish. It is nothing short of camping uniques, dressed up as an anti omni initiative....

[______________Tedric]

Originally posted by Atda Office
Hehe, did you get banned too Sum?
who were the banned ones?

I have been into Camelot with my own teams to take down mobs, and will continue to do so, regardless of shouting, regardless of any systems imposed. If i stumbled accross Morgana de Faye i would try and take her, and if people are going to take the stance that independants dont have the right to even access camelot that is plain selfish. It is nothing short of camping uniques, dressed up as an anti omni initiative....

Agreed. Have never been to Camelot, too low level, but all I hear about this "administration" of the dungeon makes it into a scam run by some players to monopolize a dungeon.

If my little neutral character ever makes it to sufficent level's I'm putting together a team of other neutrals / guildmates and going to Camelot to see the Wizar.... err, Dragon. And screw any clan "dungeon administrators".

What next, signed petitions needed to hunt in clan areas? The insanity knows no bounds.

Oh well, won't have to worry about stuff like this for ages yet, and maybe FC will make the whole Camelot situation go away. One can always hope.

[Cemetarygate]

My views are clear. My last post sums up exactly why we should limit loot.

All I can say at this point, by looking through this thread, I see more supporters in favor of limiting loot than not. Yet again, a vote of all participants would best show how everyone would like to proceed.

[iguanoid]

Heh

2 quotes in as many days. I must have my thinking cap on this week.

[Laeni]

Ok, having read all the posts so far and now understanding exactly what Tarabot is, these are my comments/observations:

1) It's unfair to "ban" someone from future particpation in Tarabot if they had no idea that Tarabot even existed or what the rules were. A better solution would be to inform the person what Tarabot was and tell them what rules they needed to follow if they wished to become a part of Tarabot in a future date. That way the player can make an informed choice. If said player chose to flaunt the rules, THEN ban them from Tarabot.

2) When informing newer players about Tarabot, please take care to distinguish "admins" from Funcom GMs. It sounds like the person who originally made this thread was confused about the official status of the admins. Impersonating a GM or an ARK is a bannable offense so please be careful to make sure it is understood that the admins are player organized.

3) I see nothing wrong with having Tarabot. Tarabot does NOT "forbid" other players from fighting Tarasque or Morgan, they simply won't have access to Tarabot if they don't follow Tarabot rules.

4) Not allowing neutrals in---well I guess this is motivation for neutrals to help Omnis take the Camelot dungeon :-D

5) Not allowing anyone to participate who has an alt Omni character---Um...what do you do, apply a lie detector test to everyone to find out if all their alts are clan? This "rule" seems a wee bit silly. But hey it's your funeral.

6) People getting an item more than once---it's the roll of the dice. Blame the dice.

[aaronb]

Last night, Tarasque dropped a gaily painted hood, a coat, and dragon skin. It was particularly exciting seeing this because when we arrived in the playfield an hour earlier, there were 35-40 (estimate) omni holding the box.

I personally met the reclaim terminal six times during our assault to regain control of the dungeon. Over and over again, we made coordinated attacks on the box until we finally (through the lag and those damned NTs... hi Vergil ) overcame their forces. It was a lot of fun, and I thank the omni for putting up an incredible fight.

This "scam run by some players to monopolize a dungeon" is why we had loot to raffle. There are three players out there (none of which I know) that now have Tarasque loot. I don't know if any of them already had the items, and I really don't care. Every single clanner there earned the right to participate in the raffles... it'll be hard to convince me that any one of them should have been excluded from a raffle based on what they already have.

So yes, screw the "dungeon administrators" and fight the coordinated efforts. The only thing you'll be looting is the reclaim terminal.

[aaronb]

On the topic of voting, I'm probably going to add voting capabilities to Tarabot so we can get some measurements of this. However, before we are going to throw anything out to vote, I think we have some communication problems that need to be addressed. There are far too many people that don't understand what Tarabot and our organized raids are all about.

And please don't expect things to all be changed tomorrow. This isn't exactly the highest priority in most of our lives.

[aaronb]

Originally posted by Sumini

One item per attendee is not that hard to control and would prevent people using Tara as a source of income or to dress their Twinks up. This puts a damper on the spirit of many who attend regularly without a sniff or loot which they would actually like to use on their Main!! (shock horror)

There are 1144 people in the tarabot userlist right now. Of those, the typical raid attendance is 50-80. Many of those 50-80 are there raid after raid after raid after raid. Statistically, they should (and do) have more of a chance of winning Tarasque loot than the people (like myself) that go infrequently, simply because they enter more raffles.

So let's say that one person already has a coat and circlet. This person participates in a raid, and a coat and circlet drops. This person should not be permitted to participate in the raffles?

"People getting an item more than once---it's the roll of the dice. Blame the dice." -- hehe, thanks Miria, great way to put it.


There are more things in this thread I'd like to address, but I think Kungwho put it best with "I'm too tired to recite the arguments for this"... hehe

When I have more time, I'll get some documentation and stuff compiled and discuss it with the admins. Maybe we could get an advisor team with representatives from different clan groups, and perhaps the neutrals. I'm open minded to most ideas, but cautious in implementation.

[Killrmeta]

Maybe you missed my post above, Asmoran so here it is again.
Instead of preventing a person from ever winning an item twice, perhaps put a time limit on it? 1 or 2 weeks after winning that item, they are eligible again. Or maybe a raid limit? After 15 or 20 raids, they can enter again for that item.

[assassimon]

Make Tara raids too complicated = People get tired of the raids and leave or go with their own team


Keep the system that works, everyone will never be happy.

[frakk2k]

Since I want to be a fair man, if I ever would win something I already have, I would ask them to reroll, was with clanner on rk2 on a tara raid, where they had this rule. Works very nice. And I hope rk1 people would follow this too.

I have a dragon circlet, so im not raffling on that one, if I want my level 70 doctor to have one, I will simply level her up to 125+.

-Frakk-

[engelstein]

This is weird. Did the Omni loot rules change? I don't think they're gonna get less controversial than the Clan rules.

Maybe Omni just isn't getting the dragon right now.

[Loster]

More than 100 clanners at raid today.

112 clanners (some ex Omnis even hehe) entered raffle for one item. Thats almost enough to fill two playfields at the same time.

Awesome turnout. A littte hectic though =P

My suggestion for spreading loot out a bit more than currently without punishing those that show up the most:

If someone wins a tradeable item , they must wait 7 days for the chance to win another tradeable item. No drop items do not count as there is no reason to win 2 of same no drop item.

People who like to attend every raid for the chance at the Gaily Painted Hood can still attend every raid and enter for the hood. If they win a coat, then they must wait 7 days to enter for any droppable item again.

Hopefully, this would spread out the loot to more people and at the same time offer a reward opportunity for those that still want to attend.

There are 4 Tara spawns per day (average). 2.5 items (average)drop per Tara. In one week thats 70 items/winners of raffles. Perhaps 25% of those items are no drop which means about 50 people, per week, win tradeable/dropable items. (This is all assuming that clan kills every Tara... as has been happening lately =P)

So the most this system would discourage from showing up (if they didnt like thier odds at winning or *gasp* had every no drop item from Tara) would be about 50 people at any given time. Thats the absolute most. More likely than not, most of those that had won a tradeable item would still show in the hopes of winning a GPH or some other no drop item. Lets say 1/2 would still feel compelled to show up. So 25 less people would show up to help battle Omnis (sit afk).

With the number of clanners showing up lately, 25 less would make no difference except to spread the loot out to more people and perhaps reduce the lag in Avalon (the zone of Avalon, not the castle =P).

I for one would volunteer to take names of winners if the admins dont want another responsibility. More than one record keeper would be required though to reduce the chance of mistakes.

The current system is fair to all. The suggestion above is simply a way to (hopefully) spread the rewards out to more people while still keeping it fair to all.

[Sheffy]

Originally posted by Loster
There are 4 Tara spawns per day (average). 2.5 items (average)drop per Tara. In one week thats 70 items/winners of raffles. Perhaps 25% of those items are no drop which means about 50 people, per week, win tradeable/dropable items..

.. 28 of which are Adventurer-only

But seriously, it's a good idea. Problem is, since there are multiple admins and a [slightly] different group of people at each tara spawn, it's pretty difficult to have every single person's winnings tracked, or who won what item in the last 7 days. The best bet would have the bot keep track, but damn that would be a lot of coding for Asmoran Since I'm not a coder, I don't even want to begin spitting out ideas, but you're right, it would help have the loot distributed a bit more.

Plus, we'll get fewer people shouting "RIGGED!!" if someone wins multiple items over just a day or two. *eyeroll*

--Tsk