The Dragon & Morgan

[___________Nightwish]

So basically what it adds up to is, that Truuth got "banned" as you call it, cos she helped a lvl 80ish MA to get the toturing tool? Just because one little Martial Artist wanted a tool, that would help him in the near future?!

Lol you guys SUCK bigtime if this is how i understood it. I dont mind raffles on Tarasque, but even on Morgain. well LOL... You dont have ANY right at all to say whether someone is allowed to kill ANY mob in game at all. You call yourselves "admins of camelot". Rofl. That is to freaking funny. As for killstealing or outdamaging. Well that happens, but if some players are kicked out of guild for helping a guy to kill a mob, makes me think that more and more Orgs are not built up on fun and friendship but more on greed.

We on RK3 do have a minimum REQ to participate in tara raids and yes i am in the admin group deciding who is getting loot, but everybody helping is treated equally. no difference if he/she is lvl 100 or 190. And noone ever complained about ANY dicisions we made to share the loot in a good way. so i guess the system works well.

Every1 who wants to help kill him, can do so. You just dont have the same chance of getting loot if you helped your first time than someone helpiong 20+ times... Everyone who wants loot tells us. Then we put him into a list. So when some item dropps the first guy on the list in the queue gets it. No matter if he is actually gonna use it. Thats basically up to him.

Thats all the rulezz we have on rk3 at least. Probably it works since we aint a pack of greedy ppl.

[assassimon]

Lol you guys SUCK bigtime if this is how i understood it. I dont mind raffles on Tarasque, but even on Morgain. well LOL... You dont have ANY right at all to say whether someone is allowed to kill ANY mob in game at all. You call yourselves "admins of camelot". Rofl. That is to freaking funny. As for killstealing or outdamaging. Well that happens, but if some players are kicked out of guild for helping a guy to kill a mob, makes me think that more and more Orgs are not built up on fun and friendship but more on greed.

I have never heared any of the admins call themselves "admins of Camelot" only 1 person that are pissed at them called them that.

I don't think anyone said they wasn't allowed to kill Morgan either, they are free to try to kill Morgan, Tarasque or any other mob, but if they don't want to raffle the loot, why would they be in the raffles in the organized raids?


I can't comment on that Erinsuin/Truuth got "banned" cuz I wasn't there.

[___________Nightwish]

Well i just personally think it sucks when someone gets kicked out of a guild only cos he helped killing some unimportant mob in the game. Even if it was tarasque, why would you wanna kick someone out for it? Dont ppl call themselves guild "mates" if they kinda like each other? Or are ppl on rk1 just in a guild, cos there are other high lvl roxxor l33ts? As for Truuth it seems so.

Still i am not pretty sure if i understood it right, that she was dismissed from her org cos of the incident with morgain.

[Brutal Truuth]

I wasnt dismissed from Apoc over this Night , i was dismissed along time ago for other reasons ( angery stage in my life) Sorry if u missunderstand my posts ... I was banned from the raid though , for reasons that keep changeing each day .... They need to stop being hipocrits ... cause i know sevral of the people who pertake in the raffle have Omni alts .. so Javaschick that dont fly with me ... time to make up a new excuse .

[_____________Kungwho]

Well I can see Azz's point. If someone gonna org kill team against Morgan and don't want to raffle loot, why should they be allowed later to register with Tarabot folks for a chance to raffle the loot? First, they trying to steal from the Tarabot folks, then later they trying cooperate with them for the same loot. Such folks are playing by two sets of rules and may generally be the greediest ones out there.

Having said that, I think Morgan--an "insignificant" mob--should be kept in the public domain, so that folks can freely org kills without worrying about being banned from Tara loot.

Azz, yes you are saying that folks are free to organize Morgan kills, but you are not saying--and should--that such folks will be subsequently banned from Tarabot for doing so (I would like to hear from current Tarabot admins btw, not just Azz lol. ). This is misleading, for sure they're "free" to kill--so long as they are ready to be perpetually banned by their brethren clanners to partake in Tara kills--not a very robust definition of "free" to my mind lol.

Also, I haven't heard a reason yet (only a conclusory declarative proposition) as to why Neuts like Jayde are precluded from the Tara raffle, and am inclined to agree that greed is playing an unwelcome role in this policy. Who has made this rule, and who am I or anyone to approach to have this rule reconsidered? This lack of generosity should bother fair-minded folks.

[________Garzu-perman]

Originally posted by Erinsuin
BtW , you got " Banned " cause you arent 125+ nor did you tell the "admins" that Morgan LeFay Spawned .

Who exactly are these "Admins"? Is it a rule that you have to inform these so called "Admins" when these special mobs spawn?


This is interesting, im already planning to make their "admin" job very boring... I need to know who they are first though.

[assassimon]

Also, I haven't heard a reason yet (only a conclusory declarative proposition) as to why Neuts like Jayde are precluded from the Tara raffle, and am inclined to agree that greed is playing an unwelcome role in this policy. Who has made this rule, and who am I or anyone to approach to have this rule reconsidered? This lack of generosity should bother fair-minded folks.

Very simple reason, they are not clanners.

They are not invited to join the raids because the raids are for clanners.

[aaronb]

A couple points from my perspective:

1. Tarabot is a tool. It is a tool for organizing raids on Camelot. It is a chat bot with raffling capabilities. It is not some access control device that locks you out of the dungeon.

2. The active organizers of clan raids are the ones that have administrative access on Tarabot. They have a system and if you want to fight against it, then why should they permit you to participate in their system? This isn't some dictatorial environment -- it's a team effort by all of the participants, with a few active leaders that are putting forth a great deal of time and effort into making the raids successful and as fair as possible. If you run around in a team mission ninja looting or fighting mobs in other parts of the mission, do you think you'd last very long in that team or be invited by any of those people again? The only difference here is scale.

3. Neutrals can't expect to play both sides. It astonishes me that some clanners are falling for this. You chose to be nobody's friend at the same time you chose to be nobody's enemy.

[Cemetarygate]

Originally posted by Kungwho
Having said that, I think Morgan--an "insignificant" mob--should be kept in the public domain, so that folks can freely org kills without worrying about being banned from Tara loot.

Morgan and Tarasque are public domain. (Or property of Funcom. Depends how you look at it). Anyone is free to kill either of these two mobs. However, if you do so without "the collective" you risk banishment from ever participating within "the collective."

[_____________Kungwho]

"They are not clanners"--is the conclusory declarative proposition I referred to, and does not respond to my argument that "neuts" are more like "guests" or even "clanners" when tehy are invited to and do assist Clan to successfully defend and kill Tara. So I assume this statement is meant as an RP reason obvious to even the most stupid of us Clanners lol.

Well then let's turn to the RP. From my RP point of view, the assistance of neutrals will be invaluable to our efforts to overcome OT Corp and therefore pains should be taken to ensure friendship with them. If Neuts and Clanners can successfully share Tarabot, this would palpably show Clanner good will and fairness to Neutrals in such a manner as to evoke their loyalty to us, over OT Corp. Imho, expressions of greed caused by exclusions, OT Corp-like dictatorial mandates to Neuts to convert, and exclusive, ideological "they're not Clan" responses will assuredly push Neuts away, and many fair-minded Clan too. From the RP point of view that is.

But this is a dungeon--a loot context--not one where RP'ing the Clan-OT-Neut context seems particularly poignant. Even more reason to treat helpful Neuts equally.

Agree Cemetary--they are controlled by the "collective"--a good development I think so far in the case of Tara kill (though folks are arguing in my guild about how boring Tara has become because of Tarabot lol). Thus I agree with your good points Asmoran--except as to #3. But I argued that Morgan should not be put under the control of the "collective." And I haven't seen a response to this.

One of my guildmates--Truuth--was presumably "banned" by the "collective" for assisting a green MA (under 125) in looting Morgan. Personally, I think this is excessive, and motivated me to argue that Morgan should be excluded from the "collective" and returned to the "public domain"--the latter meaning only the unorganized Darwinian state of affairs, where the strongest win the kill. Truuth should also accordingly be unbanned.

[aaronb]

This is a no-win situation. Without cooperation, Omni dominate the castle and none of us get any loot. With cooperation, we dominate the castle, attempt to raffle the loot fairly, and people soon forget why there is loot to be raffled in the first place.

People who normally would never have any chance at Tarasque and Morgan loot at all are whining about us wanting to raffle "their" loot.

And people wonder why the omni ended up with their power organizations controlling Tarasque with outsiders having no chance at all.

So let's see... we could turn this into a major guilds event and get all the loot for ourselves, in which case people hate us for being greedy. Or, we could attempt to create a fair system for faction participation where everyone has a shot at loot, in which case we don't get to hog the loot and people hate us for restricting it to people who are going to cooperate.

We chose the latter, so I guess we'll pay that price.

[Falikos]

Originally posted by Azzazzimon


Very simple reason, they are not clanners.

They are not invited to join the raids because the raids are for clanners.

Actually... invited yes... allowed to get loot no. The members of my guild that participated were invited to come help kill the thing.

And from what I could tell... the only PvP fun that occured was rooting the nuetrals :P

If you want to be greedy fine, but don't say it's for RP reasons... be an upstanding clanner and admit you're greedy. So, get some new excuses, or give up with the excuses entirely; afterall, it's pretty obvious everyone can figure out the ugly truth.

[aaronb]

I guess I'll be killing neutrals in future clan tarasque raids instead of inviting them to come see the dragon.

Perhaps Omni Tek is your friend.

[Falikos]

Well, it wouldn't be the first time I was killed helping someone with something.

I think what is upsetting about it is that if someone is invited to come, they meet the lvl req of the raffle, but aren't allowed to participate seems a little unfair. It's not like they stormed in. I mean, if you were invited to come, and met the lvl 125 req and weren't allowed a spot in the raffle after surviving down there woudldn't you be a tad upset?

If they had not been invited that would be one thing, but they were, as friends. *shrug* I don't see why they are excluded.

[aaronb]

Originally posted by Falikos
Well, it wouldn't be the first time I was killed helping someone with something.

I think what is upsetting about it is that if someone is invited to come, they meet the lvl req of the raffle, but aren't allowed to participate seems a little unfair. It's not like they stormed in. I mean, if you were invited to come, and met the lvl 125 req and weren't allowed a spot in the raffle after surviving down there woudldn't you be a tad upset?

If they had not been invited that would be one thing, but they were, as friends. *shrug* I don't see why they are excluded.

I can see where you are coming from, and believe it or not, I do sympathize. However...

Being invited to help come kill Tarasque because the neutrals want to see Tarasque is different than being invited to come kill Tarasque because we need your help. In my experience, having neutrals there is an inconvenience that occasionally we overcome in order to allow neutrals to (relatively) safely visit the dragon.

Azzazzimon, as the leader of one of the organizations capable of dominating Tarasque, has welcomed cooperation with other organizations as well as the faction in general. Calling him greedy isn't going to get you closer to what you want here.

[Falikos]

Hehe, that may well be. But as you see in the part I quoted he said they weren't invited, which was kinda what was irkin me. The whole tread has been trying to convice everyone that the status quo is fair... it's not... Somebody has to say so and why not me (just ask my guild, I'm notorius for getting myself in trouble)

And if they were invited just to see the dragon, then I've been misinformed... I thought they were there to help with a raid. *shrug* Hehe, and it's not like they wanted anything but a spot in the raffle like anyone else (1 in 40 isn't great odds no matter how you shake it, but better than no chance)

Anyway, I guess if they are stickin to the "nuet no loot" rule, do please in the future for anyone that is invited to come, let them know in advance... I know I'd think twice about risking certain death with 35 strong sided folk in a room if there was no possible reward

[Cemetarygate]

Originally posted by aaronb
So let's see... we could turn this into a major guilds event and get all the loot for ourselves, in which case people hate us for being greedy. Or, we could attempt to create a fair system for faction participation where everyone has a shot at loot, in which case we don't get to hog the loot and people hate us for restricting it to people who are going to cooperate.

We chose the latter, so I guess we'll pay that price.

What is most fair is if everyone earns a GoC, GPH, HPC and full set of Dragon armor. However, the current system still allows for greedy people. Would Person A winning their 4th HPC be considered fair when Person B doesn't have one yet? No, it's not fair, but the current system still lets this happen.

What happens when people complain? They are told to shut up or lose their rights as being part of the "collective." And people shut up. They are drones of the "collective " because they want the loot just as much as the greedy person who has won his/her 4th coat.

Despite how my post sounds thus far, no, I don't have any such problem with the clans working as a "collective" in attempts for loot. One of my problem is with the current system in how loot is distributed. Once the system limits one of the same item per person then "everyone has a shot at loot." Not the same people over and over again.

[_____________Kungwho]

Well-said Asmoran as to what Tarabot has tried to accomplish and also the fairness with which higher-level guilds (such as Apo) went about implementing it. I disagree only I think with the treatment of Neutral invitees who participate in good faith. But what about my thought of excluding Morgan from the "collective"? Would like your opinion (and that of Azz and any others).

[aaronb]

Originally posted by Cemetarygate


What is most fair is if everyone earns a GoC, GPH, HPC and full set of Dragon armor. However, the current system still allows for greedy people. Would Person A winning their 4th HPC be considered fair when Person B doesn't have one yet? No, it's not fair, but the current system still lets this happen.

What happens when people complain? They are told to shut up or lose their rights as being part of the "collective." And people shut up. They are drones of the "collective " because they want the loot just as much as the greedy person who has won his/her 4th coat.

Despite how my post sounds thus far, no, I don't have any such problem with the clans working as a "collective" in attempts for loot. One of my problem is with the current system in how loot is distributed. Once the system limits one of the same item per person then "everyone has a shot at loot." Not the same people over and over again.

This approach has been discussed extensively and it comes down to how you look at the raids.

You can look at them as a whole, in which we implement a weighting system and the more times you go, the better shot you have at getting loot and once you have an item you can't win it again.

Or, the alternative is to look at each specific spawn as a single event and every person that participates has an equal shot at winning from that spawn.

There are advantages and disadvantages to each. In the former, we lose frequent participants as they get all of their toys and there is absolutely no motivation for them to participate again. Or we lose infrequent participants as they feel they have such a slim chance that it doesn't justify going. In the latter, we have some people winning more than others over time and a lucky newcomer could potentially win without a clue as to how the playfield works.

We chose the second when we implemented Tarabot. It's far easier both to manage and in implementing automation. It was also easier to do politically, as it doesn't involve rating people by contribution.

The difficulty is the people. Some people want to view it as an ongoing event and others want to view it as a single-spawn event. From the single-spawn perspective, the current raffling system is extremely fair.

So what is it that you would like to see happen here? Your definition of "most fair" is subjective and based on the former view. Assuming we were to shift into that perspective, how would you address the issues described above?

[aaronb]

Originally posted by Kungwho
I basically agree Asmoran with your analysis, both of what Tarabot has tried to accomplish and also the fairness with which higher-level guilds (such as Apo) went about implementing it. I disagree only I think with the treatment of Neutral invitees who participate in good faith. But what about my concern for excluding Morgan from the "collective"? Would like your opinion (and that of Azz and any others).

An additional part of the neutrals issue is the mechanics of it with the raffles, but we can overcome that if enough people request it. Then we just have an issue because I have to allow the admins to jack with the raffles or find some other way of handling people who aren't in the userlist.

My opinion on Morgan is that she is part of the playfield and offers many of the same risks as Tarasque. Basically, if the "collective" didn't control the dungeon, the omni likely would and Morgan wouldn't be much of an option then either (omni would be looting you instead of you looting morgan).

I know that you are working based on the information you have from Truuth, as I am working from the information I have from the others that were there. I think the lack of mature communication on either side is what causes problems moreso than the actual loot itself. Not to say that Morgan loot should not be raffled, but that the entire incident could have been handled better on both sides.