Friday with Means - December 4th, 2008

[Khuri]

These two points are the reason for the existence of the "portable GMS interface" that traders have. This is a small advantage but if you give it to everyone, you actually remove the advantage from the traders.
What you are asking is like "I am not a fixer but I want instant grid because it takes me time to get back to a city after mission" or "I am not a bureaucrat but I want to have access to my bank everywhere".
Just roll a trader and you'll have access to the GMS everywhere.

Thank you!
You just pointed out two of the facts why this game is so different from "the rest" on the gameplay. What i like about this game is that there are almost no restrictions when it comes to customising your character. There are easy and hard skills based on your class, however it IS possible to do almost anything if you spend enough points (in regards to equipment and crafting).
With the GMS example, everyone can use these. However you can do almost anything, there is still the little things that are different. Now it is not a requirement to have these, but they help making "socialising" a part of this game that goes beyond just "teaming and bashing" with other players.

Now i see sturmalfar's point, where this kinda cuts into the "gaming fun experience" to have this drawback.
But i think it's the uniqueness of those "special features" of classes and even factions (like neutrals can use the GMS of all factions), that not only are good for experiencing new stuff (that is not new armor/nanos/weapons...) on a game update at a later point of your game time, but also add a special uniqueness and detail to the game. It's these little things that make this game very special among all "the rest" out there.
And that i think, even though it might cut into the gameplay fun sometimes, is worth it, in the greater picture of this game world and the experience of a more "real" world you experience while traveling on the surface of Rubi-Ka.


(and please don't get me wrong sturmalfar. I see what you mean. But on a specific game detail like that i rate it higher then the gaming comfort drawback )

[trousers]

Friday with Means - December 4th, 2008

Friday with Means - Saturday December 6th, 2008

:O There's two days between Friday and Saturday!? GASP!?

His wife was in the hospital... you all could try cutting the guy a little slack on typos...

[zartosht]

Means, due to the difficulty the dev team is experiencing with the mines for engineer, I'd like to suggest that you change this to a hand grenade instead of a mine. This suggestion originally proposed by IHaveHugeNick but I feel to cut down on dev time and make the device work properly that the grenade option would be best.

Thread in engineer forums discussing this option. OLD
Thread in engineer forums discussing this option. NEW

It is hard but I have to admit that I am in agreement with Technogen.

[IHaveHugeNick]

Means, due to the difficulty the dev team is experiencing with the mines for engineer, I'd like to suggest that you change this to a hand grenade instead of a mine. This suggestion originally proposed by IHaveHugeNick but I feel to cut down on dev time and make the device work properly that the grenade option would be best.

Thread in engineer forums discussing this option. OLD
Thread in engineer forums discussing this option. NEW

This, pretty please, we dont want these mines anyway, handgrenades are already ingame, the icons are ingame, the mechanics are ingame, just need to throw in some knockback and you'll have a lot more happy customers for a lot less work.

[Shareida]

This, pretty please, we dont want these mines anyway, handgrenades are already ingame, the icons are ingame, the mechanics are ingame, just need to throw in some knockback and you'll have a lot more happy customers for a lot less work.

Give the guys a frigging mountable grenade launcher to the remodulator.

[haide]

Heya Means, chiming in for a bit again (I'm kinda on a break-thingie for now).

As for the engine, I have one big question. Will the "new" Anarchy Online get native support for Linux and/or Macs, since Ogre is apparently an opensource and crossplatform engine? I mean it shouldn't be THAT much trouble to compile the thing two or three times (one for win, lin, mac) right? Correct me if I'm wrong here, because I'm a noobcake at developing software.

Then as for the agents. What nanos WILL we get after all now, besides the fear/knockback related nanos being FPable? Will you give us enough other nanos to make another mimic than Doc actually viable?

BAMP for nix support !!!

[flyinguns]

Thanks for the new symbiant

That pretty cool but i want to see at least something for Ranged Advy after 5 year of omgiwhinei'msoweakandsad!

I hope you are preparing something marvelous ,if not it mean, if i follow Funcom's logic, you want me to pay a booster who will give me any pvp enhancement despite the fact we asked it for 5 years now (me 3)?


Answer please!

[Klodovik]

Thanks for the new symbiant

That pretty cool but i want to see at least something for Ranged Advy after 5 year of omgiwhinei'msoweakandsad!

I hope you are preparing something marvelous ,if not it mean, if i follow Funcom's logic, you want me to pay a booster who will give me any pvp enhancement despite the fact we asked it for 5 years now (me 3)?


Answer please!

They made melee trox advie possible long time ago.

[SrslyNotEyo]

His wife was in the hospital... you all could try cutting the guy a little slack on typos...

Was a joke... Pardon my ignorance...

[Troxxor]

Was bored at work so I googled Ogre.

Something that jumped straight out at me was this: SpeedTree

Check the vid half way down the page.... It does treeeeeeeeeeeees & flooooooweeeeeeeeeers! <3

Would be very cool if RK & SL had this level of detail one day!

Can't imagine the amount of work that'll go into making that happen though :-S

[haide]

Ya can also check out the requirements for Ogre if ya are interested in such may not be the exact same when the done with it but it might give a hint ...

a link for the lazy folks ... http://www.ogre3d.org/wiki/index.php/Hardware

[sturmalfar]

These two points are the reason for the existence of the "portable GMS interface" that traders have. This is a small advantage but if you give it to everyone, you actually remove the advantage from the traders.
What you are asking is like "I am not a fixer but I want instant grid because it takes me time to get back to a city after mission" or "I am not a bureaucrat but I want to have access to my bank everywhere".
Just roll a trader and you'll have access to the GMS everywhere.

Most of the other points are not big problems for me: use the price min and max to narrow your search if you get more than 30 items in the search result. Come back to check your shop often and refill it if you feel that 21 shopping slots is too low. Sale at a bit lower price so that no items stays for ages in your shop.

I forgot about portable GMS.... you're right, it would take away a Trader advantage to have a GMS in the shops.

However, the idea of "sell at a lower price"... I completely disagaree. I have put items up for sale on GMS that were less than 20% of the LOWEST price on GMS, much lower than the average price on arpa3.net. Yet, they sat and sat and sat... and these are not random shop-food. Good nanos and armor and such. The population of players who have access to GMS is simply too small to support a fully robust economy. Which is why, LONG after the debacle of creds inflation due to ingots, there is still massive inflation of most items.
You could say to me "just roll a neut trader to be your shop mule"... yes, I could. But then what's the point of being clan? Throw RP completely out of the way and give up any semblance of it is what would happen if that's what you needed to do to compete.

[Glarawyn]

From About Ogre:

Is OGRE A Game Engine?
No. OGRE can be (and indeed has been) used to make games, but OGRE is deliberately designed to provide just a world-class graphics solution; for other features like sound, networking, AI, collision, physics etc, you will need to integrate it with other libraries, something several frameworks have done, and we have a collision / physics reference integration library as an example in our distribution.

Sounds to me like OGRE is a step forward towards cross platform, but there is much more involved than just the graphics engine.

[sturmalfar]

Thank you!
You just pointed out two of the facts why this game is so different from "the rest" on the gameplay. What i like about this game is that there are almost no restrictions when it comes to customising your character. There are easy and hard skills based on your class, however it IS possible to do almost anything if you spend enough points (in regards to equipment and crafting).
With the GMS example, everyone can use these. However you can do almost anything, there is still the little things that are different. Now it is not a requirement to have these, but they help making "socialising" a part of this game that goes beyond just "teaming and bashing" with other players.

Now i see sturmalfar's point, where this kinda cuts into the "gaming fun experience" to have this drawback.
But i think it's the uniqueness of those "special features" of classes and even factions (like neutrals can use the GMS of all factions), that not only are good for experiencing new stuff (that is not new armor/nanos/weapons...) on a game update at a later point of your game time, but also add a special uniqueness and detail to the game. It's these little things that make this game very special among all "the rest" out there.
And that i think, even though it might cut into the gameplay fun sometimes, is worth it, in the greater picture of this game world and the experience of a more "real" world you experience while traveling on the surface of Rubi-Ka.


(and please don't get me wrong sturmalfar. I see what you mean. But on a specific game detail like that i rate it higher then the gaming comfort drawback )

Oh, BTW, I'm fully paid for the next 10 months. This rant comes from a majorly disenfranchised player, and not some froob...

Khuri, let me further elaborate (and perhaps belabor) my point. My major problem with this game are the major time sinks involved to be able to enjoy the game. You say that there are "almost no restrictions to customizing your character". Really?

Listen.... just read Yin's quote of abhinav250 here, and what people say afterwards: http://forums.darkfallonline.com/sho....php?p=1954579
He shows basically what is the problem with all level and gear based MMORPG's, and AO is no exception. Grinding for leveling and gear substitutes for a lack of interesting content in most MMO's and AO included.

But, in my words, how about:

1) Race based restrictions, that new players have no clue what the max abilities, fully upgraded perks, etc. of their class without extensive research. And if you actually have a life, when you get to 210+, no time or willpower to start another toon from scratch because you chose your race for RP reasons, and then find that it... SUCKS.... MAJORLY... at both PvE and PvP content with your chosen class and there is nothing you can do about it. Re-roll a new toon. Grind it out.

2) Class restrictions. Classes=templates=you cannot really customize your character to its fullest extent and play exactly the type of character you want to play. You simply have to choose whichever class is closest to the play style you would enjoy the most... Quite simply, the amount of points it costs to upgrade particular skills is a MAJOR restriction at the higher levels. This lends itself to "cookie cutter" setups where there are obviously certain skills for that class to upgrade... but you don't figure that out unless you extensively research the forums or are in a helpful guild. And needing to use most of your IPRs to re-do your character at a high level means that the next time FC decides to add more game unbalancing content and you need to change your skills around, you're gimped... and getting 50,000 VP or 500 million gold to add ONE IPR of ONE skill
takes quite a while. What if you need to IPR 5 skills? Oh, and because you sometimes need every single buffing item in the game to get on end-game gear, you have to re-do all of that every time you IPR. This DISCOURAGES inventiveness. This tells people: research the best cookie-cutter setup for your race/class and stick to it, or you are in for some MAJOR headache = Grinding.

Oh, and for those who don't get how horrible grinding is, here's an apt description:

"Grinding is defined/described as “the process of engaging in repetitive and/or non-entertaining gameplay in order to gain access to other features within the game”. Grinding essentially removes the “fun” aspect from any given game and turns it into an “un-fun” or outright “feels like work” aspect. This is not why people play games. At least not the people I know. Grinding is universally seen as the worst part of all games, and in my personal opinion is a gimmick to keep people logged in and playing/paying for games.

My biggest issue with grinding is what I perceive to be the reasoning behind it being necessary, which is two-fold. The first is that MMO makers don’t want to lose their customers too quickly and want to milk all the money they can before people finally give up and quit. The second is that since there is a massive lack of in-game and end-game content in many MMOs, they use “the grind” to keep people playing. There is, to me, a huge flaw in this line of thinking. Basically I see it as MMO makers saying “Since we don’t have enough content in the game to keep you interested, we’re just going to make it require months to achieve your goal or goals; whether those goals are to reach maximum level, or to acquire a full set of gear.” And then as if that weren’t bad enough, once you have actually acquired that maximum level and full set of gear, another set of gear is released that is so much better than the set you are currently wearing that you must grind for it if you want to stay competitive. It’s a hook to stay in an otherwise stale game that makes up for its lack of content by making you grind."

3) The leveling grind in AO is horrible. I can't compare to other games, but months of time to get "powerful" is not my idea of fun. Not only do you have 1-220 (which is over 15 billion XP, if you count SK=1000 XP), there's 1-70 on LE research (another 13 billion XP), and then 1-30 on AI (50 million AXP, which an average of 30 to 50,000 aliens). More grinding.

4) To be competitive in the end-game (i.e. be able to PvP and not be ganked immediately or be invited onto teams), you need appropriate gear. This gear, for most classes, includes end-game symbiants/spirits, Tier3 or penultimate Ofab or combined armor, etc. Billions of credits and massive time expended. More grinding.

5) PvP setup is different than PvE setup in many cases. Also, two players of equal skill with different gear setup = person with the better gear will almost always win. Player with better skill at playing their class, against another class that is unbalanced against most toons and with better gear but WORSE skill = pawning the better skilled player. That means more time invested in getting the right gear. And, if you're not 220, you have to figure out if you're even interested in PvP, or you haven't invested into the right skills that normally have nothing to do with your class (like Aimed shot for.. anybody other than an Agent... esp. Aimed shot for a melee class). And, if you haven't spent your points properly: welcome to IPR. Yay! Grinding.

6) PvP is restricted to certain level ranges because the game mechanics make it stupid to even consider PvPing outside of those ranges. Early level PvP = traders. TL4 PvP = cookie cutter setups. TL5 PvP = the only interesting range for most of the game. TL7 PvP = get destroyed until you get to 215+, and then realize that you didn't roll an "uber" PvP class. Whoops! Re-roll. More grinding.\
And, there is no case of "an army of level 50s taken on a 220" except in tower wars.. however, that 220 could take on pretty much 100+ level 50's and pawn them all. Is this in any way realistic or fun?

Also, other than a few small PvP zones (and arenas that nobody uses, and special PvP areas in player cities that nobody uses), people pretty much PvP in: BS, Tara, tower wars, dueling. Let's see: BS - level-locked, boring to be in the SAME MAP ALL THE TIME / Tara - the same damn boss every time, MAJOR lagfest / Towers - combo of Shadowbreed and Orbital Strike = Omni pwn Clans... end of story. Look at the XP bonus Omni has on Rimor - 20% while clans are 3.x%. / Dueling = interesting somewhat BUT for all PvP:
even if they hide their gear setup, you still know your opposition's race, class and level. There is no sensation of "wandering through the wilderness and wondering if that player is powerful = run away or let's gank him/her".

7) BTW, on reaching 220. Do you know it takes more XP to go from 219 to 220 than it takes to level from 1 to 204? Also, once you reach 220, what is there for you to do? Hmm... grind to level 70 in research... which gives the same bonuses to everybody of your particular race/class = cookie cutter. Grind to AI=30. Most race/classes combos use the same AI perks, with only a few exceptions. Or, roll a new alt and start the grind all over again. Oh, and what do people do at 220 anyways, besides help out lower level people in their guild or lower level alts... Beast, Tara, Greek gods, Blitzing mishes, some RK content, AI raids (every one is almost the same grind), LE mishes... not much variety at the top.

8) Summary: Lack of balance between classes in both PvE and PvP. Lack of dealing with borked items, setups, classes, etc. before adding new "more fancy" content... Just like fixers rocked before SL, and then when SL came around, give them balance became an afterthought. This is why I'm not leveling my fixer beyond 174 - I'll have to then go all the way to 220 and grind out billions of creds to have the competitive gear for end-game. Cookie cutter setups. Grinding. More grinding.

End of rant.

[trousers]

Oh, BTW, I'm fully paid for the next 10 months. This rant comes from a majorly disenfranchised player, and not some froob...

LTRP

Learn to RolePlay :-p

This is why I don't have to worry about any of the aforementioned 8 points. :-)

[shadowgod]

Oh, BTW, I'm fully paid for the next 10 months. This rant comes from a majorly disenfranchised player, and not some froob...

Khuri, let me further elaborate (and perhaps belabor) my point. My major problem with this game are the major time sinks involved to be able to enjoy the game. You say that there are "almost no restrictions to customizing your character". Really?

[massive wall of random text]

no one in their right mind is going to read all that stuff... tho i will say, it doesnt sound like you're trying to "enjoy" the game. sounds like you're trying to compete in some rat race to become the best and most powerful in a virtual world. this isnt what AO is about.

[Shareida]

7) BTW, on reaching 220. Do you know it takes more XP to go from 219 to 220 than it takes to level from 1 to 204? Also, once you reach 220, what is there for you to do? Hmm... grind to level 70 in research... which gives the same bonuses to everybody of your particular race/class = cookie cutter. Grind to AI=30. Most race/classes combos use the same AI perks, with only a few exceptions. Or, roll a new alt and start the grind all over again. Oh, and what do people do at 220 anyways, besides help out lower level people in their guild or lower level alts... Beast, Tara, Greek gods, Blitzing mishes, some RK content, AI raids (every one is almost the same grind), LE mishes... not much variety at the top.

You are pretty right with the rest of the textwall but this.

In your anger you oversaw the fact, that the XP gained of monsters/missions scales with the level itself.
Not on a 1/1 basis, but it does.

As you state it here you tried to level all the way up to 220 with level 1 leets.

For the sake of it... ONE inf hard monster gives roughly 2500 SK. You stated that 1SK = 1000 XP...

Now rolling that backwards. One Inf hard mob is enough to level 190 to 192.

[sturmalfar]

You are pretty right with the rest of the textwall but this.

In your anger you oversaw the fact, that the XP gained of monsters/missions scales with the level itself.
Not on a 1/1 basis, but it does.

As you state it here you tried to level all the way up to 220 with level 1 leets.

For the sake of it... ONE inf hard monster gives roughly 2500 SK. You stated that 1SK = 1000 XP...

Now rolling that backwards. One Inf hard mob is enough to level 190 to 192.

Shareida, nobody has ever told me that they got 2500 SK from a hard inf mob... perhaps you're referring to an end-game character soloing a hard inferno mob as opposed to a full team doing it, whereby you get more like 1250 SK per mob. But, going with your example.

2500 SK = 2.5 mil XP. To get from level 190 to 192 ris oughly 125 mil. xp. 125 million/2500 = 50. These are 50 of the hardest mobs in the game and NOT 1 mob from 190 to 192. Check your math and then confirm mine.

How many people go after hard Inf mobs at level 190? I don't know of any. Until then, even with XP bonus gear, and w/o a 'crat in game, at level 190 ado hecks or mobs in pen mishes are around 600k xp each in a full team. Which is around 225 ado hecks or whatever mob to get from 190 to 192. I'm sure you have a clear idea how much of an interminable grind that is.

If you have a nice org. and lots of time, and you're in a full team, and do nothing but hard inf. mobs from 200 to 220, that is approx. 12.5 million SK/1250 SK each mob = 10,000 mobs. Umm... yeah.... that sure is NOT what I would call grinding.... that sounds refreshing and enjoyable to attack the same mobs over and over and over and over.

Or, AXP. To get to AI=30, is 50 million AXP. Let's say I'm being HIGHLY generous and say 1500 AXP per alien... some are 2000, some are less than 1000, but let's go with that for now. 50 mil./1500 = over 33,000 aliens.

Or, LE research. http://www.ao-universe.com/main.php?...&link=4&id=267
First, it's only at level 5 (XP cap of 637,500 per mob) that you can go 100% research on ado hecks. But let's say you're efficient and can get capped XP on 20 mobs per LE level up until that point. Levels 1 to 5 = 20 x 5 = 100 mobs for each line. 7 lines = 700 mobs. Now, from level 6 up you need a total of 1.79 billion XP, per line, to get to level 10. 7 lines x 1.79 billion XP = 12.5 billion XP. At 1.25 million XP per hard inf mob in full team, that's 10,000 mobs. And you want to get to LE 70, ' cause much of the best stuff is found in levels 9 and 10 of each line.

So, let's see 10k + 33k + 10k = 53,000 mobs to kill, in full team (for max. DPS) to get to the highest levels in the game. How long does that take?

Oh, and BTW, how long does it take to complete the full DB for all of your nanos... forget about difficulty and game bugs. I'm talking about getting a proper team together for the amount of time that it takes to complete DB. How many people have the time/interest to raid for HOURS at a stretch, with no break?

[sturmalfar]

LTRP Learn to RolePlay :-p This is why I don't have to worry about any of the aforementioned 8 points. :-)

YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHO I AM OR WHAT I HAVE DONE IN MY LIFE. It is exceedingly rude to say something flippant like "Learn to role-play".

I have role-played in D&D -- both table-top and LIVE-ACTION, performed in Renaissance fairs, done choreographed sword fights IN CHARACTER, acted in several on-stage plays, studied with the Royal Shakespeare Company in England, had a career in sales (if that's not "role-playing" I don't know what is)... I think I have a *passing* semblance of ability to role-play.

This game does not lend itself well to role-playing.... the opposition between the Clans and Omni is nice on paper, but when you have limited and banal choices for PvP, and when there is NO PvP in the SL, and the whole CONCEPT of the SL completely changes and I say, borks, the dynamic between Clan and Omni... then you have a game where a haphazard story has produced a role-play that is arbitrary and has no relation to game dynamic. If I wanted something like that, I'd go play Sims Online or (I'd shoot myself first) Second Life.

I want a BALANCED game that has role-playing elements designed around PLAYER choice and not capricious decisions by the game designers, many of whom aborted ship years ago and the current designers have no IDEA, INTEREST or INCLINATION of correcting their mistakes.

[trousers]

rant

Wow dude. You need to seriously chill. I thought the ":-p" indicated I was being facetious.

Now please post a wall of text explaining his being facetious won't help balance the game that no one will read.