Friday with Means - December 4th, 2008

[Ebondevil]

As a member of the ranged advie community, I would like to say:

You make the rest of us look bad.

Theo

I thought that was what he was trying to do?

[Dictan]

Make lava caps 50% drop on beast handler? >_>




PS: I started reading this thread and forgot it was a Means thread at all......no praising of FC or adding suggestions. No questions being raised just bickering and boring my life sux becus of Ao > talk =\

[sturmalfar]

PS: I started reading this thread and forgot it was a Means thread at all......no praising of FC or adding suggestions. No questions being raised just bickering and boring my life sux becus of Ao > talk =\

Dictan.... where do you get the idea that this thread has "no praising of FC or adding suggestions"? Did you actually read the thread or just skim through it?
To wit:
1) Page 1 is filled with praise for FC
2) On Page 2,
a) Esproc made suggestions about grenade engis
b) Ayria made a comment praising Means
c) I made a post filled with suggestions
d) Atheist made suggestions about advies in general

If you want to say that this post degenerated into bickering AFTER that point, yes, point the blame squarely at me on pg 3. I thought that this would be like the Fixer professional forum, where deep discourse and exchange of ideas and passionate exchange of opinions was permitted and encouraged. Instead, it seems that the points I made bothered people enough that, for most, instead of addressing what I said square on, they just said "Wall of text.... waste of time.... play another game... get a life.. play Hello Kitty... etc."

[sturmalfar]

In addition of my previous post:

why don't you do as you say? stoping your favorite profession at the lvl when they are good? then after doing this, you have two choice: doing as many of ppl do rerolling again and again , doing the same thing then be tired and leave for 1 year for at least come back Or you can with your experience make a viable char in the aim to help newbies, this is what i am doing sometime , while doing this, you will see another side of Ao beyond the selfishness of many of us.

And really don't hesitate to take a walk ever place you can in this fabulous world of Ao (not only SL) is so vast and beautiful you can't imagine, i can't congratulate enough those people who did it it's more than a good work for one time and if you want you can do a webdiary.

that what many players do atm, doing website, helping other low level, doing bestiary etc.........

Why at your opinion? Because they are just tired to do the same thing again and again.

As i told you before : focus about what the community do, don't focus about the the G-developer are doing or you will be dissapointed

Ed1t:

And your org aren't the only ppl you have to play with i'm not only playing with my org i play with all the people i can, even with some omnies so you don't have to quit your org : just play as you want to play and with the kind of people you want to.

Ok.. where to start... I AM stopping at the best level for fixers IMHO = 174. I HAVE helped many newbies out: I ninja buff EVERY clanner with GSF, hots, etc. Not just high levels who can buff me in return but low level newbies who have nothing to offer me. I strip implants for free for newbies... the list goes on.
Ask around... I am helpful to everyone I can. I have even buffed some omnis in SL as long as they promise to "pay it forward to a clanner".

As a fixer, I can travel easily... I HAVE seen most of every map on RK and have traveled all over nascene, ely, scheol, ado and started traversing Pen. Yes, it IS a beautiful world... sunsets and vistas, etc. Does that mean that I can ignore and set aside the dozen times I've gotten stuck in the geometry in SL? Or ignore the fact that fixer gridding in RK is great, while in SL it's unnecessarily inconvenient and we have no team gridding there (For ex: WHY do you have to WEAR the keys when you're already flagged as having found them?) and so fixers are disadvantaged in SL compared to other classes.

What else? Teaming.... In the 3 months I've played, I HAVE started and formed at least 30 teams from random people on LFT with DDers, tanks and healers, and most of these teams worked in combination. Most of those teams had none of my org members in them. Most were mixed omni/clan teams.

Yes, AO has an amazing community... without sites like arpa3.net, auno.org, ao-universe.com, etc. I (and many others) would be totally lost.... but what does it mean for a new player that the game is so complex and many of the quests are so bugged, that you need to read a bunch of guides to get anywhere without wasting tons of time?

Why do I have to accept that the game is borked and ignore what the developers do? That is like saying: "The U.S. economy is messed up no matter what... ignore what the corrupt politicians are doing... it's gonna be this way, so just live your life in your neighborhood and hope it doesn't all fall apart". Do you realize that AO is still a business.... and it needs a thriving, paying, audience... and it needs to be profitable? Or else, like many games before it, it will be shut down... And then, we'll be sad... and move on to another MMORPG. Or, we can take a stand now, and make our voices be hard, and maybe...just MAYBE the developers care enough this time around to actually listen...

[lonewolf2k7]

theres no way in hell agents should beable to FP the nanos thats well unfair just shows how much FC can love one toon FAIL OP agents !!!

[Mekh]

Questions to Means:
- What is holding FC back from server transfers and/or server merges.
- What are the big issues?
--> Have you considered some of all the ways to do it, that have been proposed.
- Are you actually discussing the possibility?


EDIT:
Not actually very keen on it myself so far, but would to hear FC's thoughts on the issue.

[Khuri]

Well, sturmalfar, after reading your pages of text, all i can only assume is that we (that means me and you, can't speak for others) do have some different expectations of this game.
I still say that i see your point. Even more then before. I've been practicing RPing since many years, and the RPing in PC games is only a part of it. Let me try to explain to you in short, what difference i see between our expectations of this game.
When i'm playing P&P for example, sometimes i want to play characters who are not really "covered by the rules". So this character has the be discussed with the GM and balanced, so the other players who play with me have no (dis-)advantage. Because, and i'm on your side here, i want to play my cool character (whatever it may be) but not want to lack behind in the game. Sometimes my character can be "virtually" what i want it to be, without changing rules. Sometimes that's not possible. A question of the GM, the other players and the game rules, how this turns out in the end. But in the end, i want some unique character, but without suffering from game rules drawbacks.

About games in general: something most pc RPGs share with other kinds of RP (f.ex. LARP) is that they have visualisations. In a P&P you imagine things. Now with some graphics or people in costumes i believe it's harder to see beyond what the engine displays or the costume makes out of the person behind it, because your imagination gets for once supported but also limited, because you believe more what your eyes show you then what you imagine to see (i hope you understand what i mean). A simple example, i'm sure you played in some P&P group already where a guy played a girl or a girl a guy, and noticed you tend to think of that player more of their natural gender then the character they play, thus disturbing the imagination of the character. What supports you again in a pc game is that you only see what is on the screen and not some actual person behind that.

Now about this game: seeing nothing but pixelated characters on your screen boosts the imagination of "another world". But, unlike in P&P or any kind of RL-RPG, you are limited to the very strict game rules and content. An item/look that does not exist in the game ressources can not be displayed. Now in reference to my first comment, "What i like about this game is that there are almost no restrictions when it comes to customising your character"; this game allows me to almost freely choose what weapons and armor i want to use, thus increasing the imagination of "what my character should display", in a visualised way, independent of the class. Other games often give you equipment soley based on your class, and you're stuck with them forever.
In this game for example, i play a doctor in the Omni-Pol org. Now, in gameplay terms our org consists of people of all kind of playstyles and classes. However, we often do this marching around in uniform, which is possible in this game to be used by everyone; other games might decide "this armor is just for warrior-type classes". A big plus on the imagination.
With regards to class specific skills, i think of it like this: you're doing job A, for example medics. You're good at it. Now, in your free time you practice your computer skills. You can become really good at it, however if you want to become "pro", it is likely you have to switch your job (for example, you will be a good programmer but will never get access to some companies network and ressources unless you work there). The same kind of applies to the game. What should keep my main character (doc) from picking up an assault rifle and using it? Skills suck, primarily. Makes sense with the selection of the class, as your character has learned something or has a special skill for this thing, before you, the player, form a symbiosis, aka playing the character. So am i a doc who fights with a rifle in my free time, or am i a soldier who's every day job is to fire such a rifle? Might be worth switching class then.
And since that is hard to come by in terms of game mechanic, it's not possible to switch class other then creating a new char. And we stay with class specific skill abilities, who can just be bend in a certain way.


Now with regards to roleplaying: You can say, PvP is unbalanced, non RPers say that all the time. But does it matter, RP wise? What kind of roleplaying do you want? Because there you can split the RP-community in this game kinda. As said before, nothing keeps you from playing a fixer with heavy armor who runs around with a hat and shorts (thanks to social tab) in the visible aspect of the game. The shotgun, of course is a two sided thing. But unless you want to use a (fixer-type) gun you need to totally twink to use, what keeps you from equiping a shotgun while RPing?
Of course, here comes the PvP aspect. The weapons are still an issue... (since armor can be hidden under social tab clothes).
But what is borked PvP wise in RP terms? It's not only the weapon that matters. Level restrictions come before you can even attack at all. Now this has good and bad points: Those people who want to RP and don't mind game mechanic leveling stay for example level 100, can not be attacked by a level 220 RP character. Sucks if they want to do some RP PvP fight, because they will be unable to smash each others heads. But turn it around, how would it look RP-wise for example, if some low ranking (unnamed) soldier of some org would come and wipe out an entire city guards (NSCs) or even other players just because he can with his game mechanic level?

Sooo, they question remains, what is good about RPing battles? Without level restrictions, gas levels, etc., players who spend more time RPing then playing the actual game, would definately loose every battle. But is it required to be a "good player" in game terms to visualise a good fighting character RP wise? Some say yes, some say no.
For my part, i definately suck at PvP. And i don't have the time or even the nerve to sit down and figure out all this twinking for a character. But then i don't run away from PvP if it should come up, as it doesn't matter to me if i then get killed within seconds. My priorities about RPing are on a different basis. And since i know a lot of people who share this idea, i don't mind doing some "RP-fight" with them. Less spectacular of course, as you have to sit and discuss how the fight is gonna run instead of just hitting buttons and blowing them away. One may call it a silly excuse for sucking at the game, but hey; thats my gamestyle, and thats their oppinion. Unless this should be a total obstacle that stops RPing, i'm fine with it


To summarise, i hope you see what i meant with my comment.
On my first point about P&P games, where i want "good" characters, thats right. In AO, it's minor to me.
And what's gonna be with you and RPing, well guess that is up to you as well


As Trousers mentioned RPing on Rimor, should you play on Atlantean, try "/tell channel42 !join". Otherwise, you can look on the "Buzz"-forums here and find some RP-guilds using the guild guide search function on AOU (just select dimension/faction and "How important should
Roleplaying be in the guild:" 3+).
Final word:

Why AO is doomed to fail unless balance is restored BEFORE new content is added...

Game's been out there for more then 7 years. Something must be about it, that it still keeps going

[Coreunit]

Well i have sat down and read thru all of the post and I thought that "Friday with Means" was suppose to be about what Means said and further questions for him to answer..... but all I have seen is people complaining about the things we have asked for. I have been in a position similar to Means position and let me tell you it isn't easy trying to make everyone happy but at least he is trying. The sad part about it is instead of saying thank you you write things like "Means is and @$$ Monkey" and so on but hey it shows what type of mentality some people have for hard working people who try and make something enjoyable for them. But anyways enough with my ranting..... I have a question for Means.

Q: I was wondering when the new booster's will be out because from what you said the solo play part of it seems like something a little different from what we have been seeing and sounds very interesting, also in advance if I missed the post about a release I apologize.

[trousers]

Well i have sat down and read thru all of the post and I thought that "Friday with Means" was suppose to be about what Means said and further questions for him to answer..... but all I have seen is people complaining about the things we have asked for. I have been in a position similar to Means position and let me tell you it isn't easy trying to make everyone happy but at least he is trying. The sad part about it is instead of saying thank you you write things like "Means is and @$$ Monkey" and so on but hey it shows what type of mentality some people have for hard working people who try and make something enjoyable for them. But anyways enough with my ranting..... I have a question for Means.

Q: I was wondering when the new booster's will be out because from what you said the solo play part of it seems like something a little different from what we have been seeing and sounds very interesting, also in advance if I missed the post about a release I apologize.

In all fairness, he did call himself an ass monkey first.

And for as much as everyone complains I believe the majority of people are happy with the work Means is doing. I for one am pleased and admire Means for taking this step and can only hope efforts like this to communicate with the community catch on and begin to get adopted by other groups inside of FunCom and ARK.

Keep up the good work, Means.

[Ebondevil]

theres no way in hell agents should beable to FP the nanos thats well unfair just shows how much FC can love one toon FAIL OP agents !!!

Before you go spouting No!!! all over the forum, perhaps you might want to try rolling a new character, looking at the agent description, looking at the Agent nano formulas, and perhaps try to come up with a suggestion for what else Agents are meant to do if they're not meant to be able to use False profession.

Considering False Profession is still effectively the defining part of the Agent toolset despite the fact that it lacked support from SL until LE, Agents getting new Nanos to use via False profession is something Agents have been waiting for for years.

Also try to consider that most of what Agents have asked for in terms of the new nanos is primarily extensions of Nano lines they already have access to, but getting an extension to them into a post SL era instead of mostly being stuck with RK only nano formulas.

Finally try to bear in mind that no matter what nano formulas Agents get access to they will never, be able to utilise another professions toolset as well as the other profession, not only will Agents be lacking gear, perks and Perk specials to support those tools, they will also be suffering penalties while trying to use those tools.

Agents are getting a significant update to the core part of their toolset after many years of waiting, how is that unfair?

I eagerly anticipate learning what new nanos agents will get so there's new nano formulas for agents to look forward too after level 170 and I am ecstatic that Agents are finally getting something so long hoped for. Hopefully they'll give agents incentive to use FP's other than Doctor for 90% of the time.

[flyinguns]

As a member of the ranged advie community, I would like to say:

Please, stop being so one note. Or stay off our side. You make the rest of us look bad.

Theo

Hu?

What this time?

Because i just said that ranged advy isn't one of the most powerful prof of Ao? If i'm wrong i'm sorry . Everybody know mele advys are really powerful(not overpowered but powerful). Able to solo as noone, can be good in pvp and good to pvm .

I didn't say a thing about nerf mele advy or mele are overpowered (just at my opinion they are one of the most powerful prof that all) etc... I'm just tired to ppl who think we are the same, that all

[egadsrk2]

Even opening such a direct line of communication to our Game Director is risky business. For every question, there is many more wrong answers than right answers. Sil would never have attempted something like this, he was much more guarded with information - and probably for this reason. Noone wants to be told how wrong they are dozens of times per day, even when doing their damnedest to improve something.

Hands out to Means, for giving us this. The no-nonsense approach to Friday With Means is really appreciated. Guess it comes from his background as a nuts-n-bolts man within Anarchy Online. Experience Sil didn't have, or at least we didn't know about.

[grumpy-mcfart]

hands out to means, for giving us this. The no-nonsense approach to friday with means is really appreciated.

qft.

[Dictan]

Well, sturmalfar, after reading your pages of text, all i can only assume is that we (that means me and you, can't speak for others) do have some different expectations of this game.
I still say that i see your point. Even more then before. I've been practicing RPing since many years, and the RPing in PC games is only a part of it. Let me try to explain to you in short, what difference i see between our expectations of this game.
When i'm playing P&P for example, sometimes i want to play characters who are not really "covered by the rules". So this character has the be discussed with the GM and balanced, so the other players who play with me have no (dis-)advantage. Because, and i'm on your side here, i want to play my cool character (whatever it may be) but not want to lack behind in the game. Sometimes my character can be "virtually" what i want it to be, without changing rules. Sometimes that's not possible. A question of the GM, the other players and the game rules, how this turns out in the end. But in the end, i want some unique character, but without suffering from game rules drawbacks.

About games in general: something most pc RPGs share with other kinds of RP (f.ex. LARP) is that they have visualisations. In a P&P you imagine things. Now with some graphics or people in costumes i believe it's harder to see beyond what the engine displays or the costume makes out of the person behind it, because your imagination gets for once supported but also limited, because you believe more what your eyes show you then what you imagine to see (i hope you understand what i mean). A simple example, i'm sure you played in some P&P group already where a guy played a girl or a girl a guy, and noticed you tend to think of that player more of their natural gender then the character they play, thus disturbing the imagination of the character. What supports you again in a pc game is that you only see what is on the screen and not some actual person behind that.

Now about this game: seeing nothing but pixelated characters on your screen boosts the imagination of "another world". But, unlike in P&P or any kind of RL-RPG, you are limited to the very strict game rules and content. An item/look that does not exist in the game ressources can not be displayed. Now in reference to my first comment, "What i like about this game is that there are almost no restrictions when it comes to customising your character"; this game allows me to almost freely choose what weapons and armor i want to use, thus increasing the imagination of "what my character should display", in a visualised way, independent of the class. Other games often give you equipment soley based on your class, and you're stuck with them forever.
In this game for example, i play a doctor in the Omni-Pol org. Now, in gameplay terms our org consists of people of all kind of playstyles and classes. However, we often do this marching around in uniform, which is possible in this game to be used by everyone; other games might decide "this armor is just for warrior-type classes". A big plus on the imagination.
With regards to class specific skills, i think of it like this: you're doing job A, for example medics. You're good at it. Now, in your free time you practice your computer skills. You can become really good at it, however if you want to become "pro", it is likely you have to switch your job (for example, you will be a good programmer but will never get access to some companies network and ressources unless you work there). The same kind of applies to the game. What should keep my main character (doc) from picking up an assault rifle and using it? Skills suck, primarily. Makes sense with the selection of the class, as your character has learned something or has a special skill for this thing, before you, the player, form a symbiosis, aka playing the character. So am i a doc who fights with a rifle in my free time, or am i a soldier who's every day job is to fire such a rifle? Might be worth switching class then.
And since that is hard to come by in terms of game mechanic, it's not possible to switch class other then creating a new char. And we stay with class specific skill abilities, who can just be bend in a certain way.


Now with regards to roleplaying: You can say, PvP is unbalanced, non RPers say that all the time. But does it matter, RP wise? What kind of roleplaying do you want? Because there you can split the RP-community in this game kinda. As said before, nothing keeps you from playing a fixer with heavy armor who runs around with a hat and shorts (thanks to social tab) in the visible aspect of the game. The shotgun, of course is a two sided thing. But unless you want to use a (fixer-type) gun you need to totally twink to use, what keeps you from equiping a shotgun while RPing?
Of course, here comes the PvP aspect. The weapons are still an issue... (since armor can be hidden under social tab clothes).
But what is borked PvP wise in RP terms? It's not only the weapon that matters. Level restrictions come before you can even attack at all. Now this has good and bad points: Those people who want to RP and don't mind game mechanic leveling stay for example level 100, can not be attacked by a level 220 RP character. Sucks if they want to do some RP PvP fight, because they will be unable to smash each others heads. But turn it around, how would it look RP-wise for example, if some low ranking (unnamed) soldier of some org would come and wipe out an entire city guards (NSCs) or even other players just because he can with his game mechanic level?

Sooo, they question remains, what is good about RPing battles? Without level restrictions, gas levels, etc., players who spend more time RPing then playing the actual game, would definately loose every battle. But is it required to be a "good player" in game terms to visualise a good fighting character RP wise? Some say yes, some say no.
For my part, i definately suck at PvP. And i don't have the time or even the nerve to sit down and figure out all this twinking for a character. But then i don't run away from PvP if it should come up, as it doesn't matter to me if i then get killed within seconds. My priorities about RPing are on a different basis. And since i know a lot of people who share this idea, i don't mind doing some "RP-fight" with them. Less spectacular of course, as you have to sit and discuss how the fight is gonna run instead of just hitting buttons and blowing them away. One may call it a silly excuse for sucking at the game, but hey; thats my gamestyle, and thats their oppinion. Unless this should be a total obstacle that stops RPing, i'm fine with it


To summarise, i hope you see what i meant with my comment.
On my first point about P&P games, where i want "good" characters, thats right. In AO, it's minor to me.
And what's gonna be with you and RPing, well guess that is up to you as well


As Trousers mentioned RPing on Rimor, should you play on Atlantean, try "/tell channel42 !join". Otherwise, you can look on the "Buzz"-forums here and find some RP-guilds using the guild guide search function on AOU (just select dimension/faction and "How important should
Roleplaying be in the guild:" 3+).
Final word:
Game's been out there for more then 7 years. Something must be about it, that it still keeps going

Oh dear god the wall of text is KILLING ME MY EYES MY EYES ARE GOING TO EXPLODE and no i didnt't read a word of it, because to do would lea dto me having to drop out of school all together just to finish it p_P.

[Chrys]

My question for Means:

Do you believe BS kills/deaths ratios are indicative of PVP balance? Do you actually use it to prioiritise updates to various professions?

[Solsssss]

I wonder wether i will miss the vintage look AO has if the engine gets implemented..

Edit: Haha check out tir screeny, the 2 tents and the pole cast shadows that make it look like a peenor.

[egadsrk2]

If that's what your 'peenor' looks like, you should either be taking a lot more drugs, or taking a lot less drugs. I'm really not sure which, but the amount of drugs needs to change.

[MajorOutage]

you should either be taking a lot more drugs, or taking a lot less drugs. I'm really not sure which, but the amount of drugs needs to change.

Words to live by right there

[Ayria]

My question for Means: can you (or a mod) clear out the garbage that has infested your informative thread before we all suffer massive brain hemorrhaging from the sheer amount of whining and belly aching occurring in massive walls of text? I am sure I am not the only one who didn't read a rudy word of it because they looked at how long it was, read a few words and said to hell with it I want to read a question to Means and an answer from Means.

You buggers arguing here about who's the best ranged Adv or who is into RP etc etc etc: TAKE IT TO REETS OR IMS. FFS, we want to hear from Means, not you. Plenty of other spaces on this forum that Means doesn't post in as much why not go hide there?

[Klodovik]

AS/burst/FA in support profession's symbiants, pretty please. kthnx