2 hour MP pets=finally lower reqs on engi pets?

[bungerman]

i like that. so you're rationalizing your continuing to make unsubstantiated complaints by putting me in the same lot of people who continue to do what you have been doing.

yes yes.. we are the borg of MPs. resistance is futile. you will be assimilated by our mochams. resistance will make you gimped.

oh.. and before i forget... i'm not allowed to keep my opinions to myself. its a requirement of being a prof.

opinions=trolling? never knew that.

[Ferg]

i like that. so you're rationalizing your continuing to make unsubstantiated complaints by putting me in the same lot of people who continue to do what you have been doing.

yes yes.. we are the borg of MPs. resistance is futile. you will be assimilated by our mochams. resistance will make you gimped.

oh.. and before i forget... i'm not allowed to keep my opinions to myself. its a requirement of being a prof.

Unsubstantiated? have you even been reading this thread? Unsubstantiated is all the flaming MPs coming into our forums to tell us that our desire for lower casting requirements is no good (which just happens to be the act this entire thread is based upon, but you would know that if you'd actually read the thread instead of just hopping on the flame bandwagon). Unsubstantiated is a player with no experience with a class whatsoever telling players with longterm firsthand experience what they do and do not need. Unsubstantiated is you defending these people simply because it involves "your class". It is not your job to moderate us and our desires, you need to get over your selfish sibling rivalry complex and realize that it is funcom's call and they will make it with complete disregard to your opinion. Keep in mind that you're the MP professional, nobody gives a damn about what you think about engineers.

[RedWobe]

Didn't an engineer say earlier in this thread that casting his pets isn't a problem, it's isotos?

With AS imps?

I have an QL300 AS eye, but am using a control hand at the moment. The thing is though, we have more TS than MC naturally, so using MC in the eye balances it, and there's no reason at all to have more of one than the other. I'd have the same basic MC/TS with an Eye symb, really. Yes, the problem for me is how much nano gear I can have and still use iSotOS.

Really, as far as PvP setups are concerned, I can't see anybody caring about pet casting requirements any more, as the team blockers require over 100 more MC/TS, there are so many swap items now that its possible to cast the pets without a single perk in nanoskills. The killers are iSotOS and Team Blockers. So lets not talk about pet duration (since its so freaking irrelevant to the actual conversation), lets talk about what you get for your investment of perks, swapping and setup.

Team Blockers - 2147 MC/TS. Quite simply, the best team buff in the game (PvP wise). Better than Umbral, better than Improved Life Channeler, sure as hell better than the Doc team hot. I'm sorry to members of my profession who disagree, but the inherent power of 7 team blockers per minute should require sacrifices to cast. It just should. I think the DShark should be harder to use too. My complaint isn't that soldiers have a weapon that caps FA all the time, its that that weapon is available to 210s in full OFAB. If team blockers were available without serious work, I'd be disgusted. Given the availability of swap items and the length of the buff, I think these reqs should be kept where they are.

iSotOS - A very good AAO buff for our pets, with requirements that make it the defining factor in my nanoskills setup. They are the reason I can't use an AS hand, they're the reason I use a NCU instead of a sniper's friend, and they're the reason I need an Infused Ancient Nano Enhancer instead of a IAVE, non-Infused Defender or whatever. I would like to see the reqs on this lowered by maybe 45 points to 2001 MC and 1921 MM. I could see this as reasonable, but I also see making no changes to the reqs as reasonable too. If the duration was say, 30 minutes, so that it was reasonable to swap one or two nanoskill items in for a quick recharge, I'd be totally ok with the requirements.

The fact is, these reqs are not Engineer's problem in PvP. The problems are as such:

1) No good PvP weapon. I'm using an EC3, many use Sapphistic, many have given up using AS all together because there's no good option for Engineers. I sacrifice far more to have a high QL EC3 than I do any nano, by far. I have a 250 Ransacking tower, QL300 Bright+Faded Implanting and still need 3 parts supple armor + beast sleeve to keep my weapon out of OE, nerfing my AR with my only offensive perks that I can land, which brings me to my second point.

2) We don't have any offensive perks that do anything. A blind, a small DD or DoT from Alchemist or Tinkerer. I love the idea of tradeskill based perks that actually land, but ours are so pointless (our RE perks are even worse). I'd really like to see top level RE/Pistol/Shotgun perks opened up to Engineers, since its pretty unreasonable at this point to expect massive perk changes.

3) We need a reasonable way to snare people to have any hope of killing them (nobody dies to 11 second AS, even if you cap it every time - other than shades, lol). A cast-on-target version of our Auras would be a start, with blinds that don't break, snare that actually do something, and maybe a reflect ripper that can be used at a decent range.

WHY DO YOU ALL INSIST ON ASKING FOR LOWER NANO REQS WE DONT NEED INSTEAD OF FOCUSING ON WHAT WE DO?

[erozc]

2) We don't have any offensive perks that do anything. A blind, a small DD or DoT from Alchemist or Tinkerer. I love the idea of tradeskill based perks that actually land, but ours are so pointless (our RE perks are even worse). I'd really like to see top level RE/Pistol/Shotgun [emphasis added] perks opened up to Engineers, since its pretty unreasonable at this point to expect massive perk changes.

3) We need a reasonable way to snare people to have any hope of killing them (nobody dies to 11 second AS, even if you cap it every time - other than shades, lol). A cast-on-target version of our Auras would be a start, with blinds that don't break, snare that actually do something, and maybe a reflect ripper that can be used at a decent range.
(

Don't ask for it... You might actually get it. Pistol perks are damn near worthless. I've yet to see any advy at least to use anything but Deadeye, and that hits for about 2k damage in PvM on a target with no reflects. Also a 3 second attack time. All in all it's not even half as good as the CoLA perk.

Pets as a source of damage and things that can be done to improve them fulfill that role sounds very reasonable, however.

[Klodovik]

Team Blockers - 2147 MC/TS. Quite simply, the best team buff in the game (PvP wise). Better than Umbral, better than Improved Life Channeler, sure as hell better than the Doc team hot. I'm sorry to members of my profession who disagree, but the inherent power of 7 team blockers per minute should require sacrifices to cast. It just should.

You know, there are some people who think that keeping your teammates alive in PvP is not an advantage, even if it doesn't require your active involment in that (i.e. team blockers).

WHY DO YOU ALL INSIST ON ASKING FOR LOWER NANO REQS WE DONT NEED INSTEAD OF FOCUSING ON WHAT WE DO?

Gatsby for engie professional!!

[viandante]

Too bad Tigress caps at 12 seconds. You were saying?

I am saying I can use AS each 22 seconds....

[shadowgod]

Unsubstantiated? have you even been reading this thread? Unsubstantiated is all the flaming MPs coming into our forums to tell us that our desire for lower casting requirements is no good (which just happens to be the act this entire thread is based upon, but you would know that if you'd actually read the thread instead of just hopping on the flame bandwagon). Unsubstantiated is a player with no experience with a class whatsoever telling players with longterm firsthand experience what they do and do not need. Unsubstantiated is you defending these people simply because it involves "your class". It is not your job to moderate us and our desires, you need to get over your selfish sibling rivalry complex and realize that it is funcom's call and they will make it with complete disregard to your opinion. Keep in mind that you're the MP professional, nobody gives a damn about what you think about engineers.

i see i've hit a nerve. so we're making some progress here.

of course i've read this whine... i mean.. thread. i can also quite clearly read the title of it. which is explicitly stating that because MPs got something, engies then must receive something as compensation.

now, i know you see no problems with this. and you'll ignore my individual thoughts on the matter cause you just see me as some "yet another random MP". which is quite disapointing, but totally expected in an online forum. especially since, because of such positions i do hold, had this "suggestion" been phrased and requested in a more pure form, and not put into some rant whining about MPs getting something, i might of very well have supported this issue. and such added weight to the position would help get it implimented.

sadly, i'm not sure i can ever do so now, as the responses have been so hostile and lacking in any substance which would have convinced me otherwise.

[Camar]

WHY DO YOU ALL INSIST ON ASKING FOR LOWER NANO REQS WE DONT NEED INSTEAD OF FOCUSING ON WHAT WE DO?

qft

[Hacre]

Shadowgod has a point.

However angry and embittered Engineers are with random Crat/MP trolls and however justified that may be from past "improvements"...you have a new game director now, who so far hasn't put a single foot wrong.

Means has proven that it is possible for a GD to operate at the grass roots level and listen to reasonable requests from us the players and the professionals.

A personal example of that, would be the keeper fear resistance aura. Based on past experience, almost every (ex)keeper still lurking these forums fully expected it to be placed in a line we already have too many options/sacrifices in (enervate/damage line), therefore rendering something useless. We were wrong however, very wrong.

Look how everyone lost their s**t over the combined combined combined combination combined armour.

As disappointing to the trolls as this may be, I'd highly suggest that this is the time to stop labeling every MP/Crat that ever walked on RK as evil, stop making ShadowGod some scapegoat for every MP post ever made and start talking to Means, or go via your professionals to Means.

If your Pros themselves have become too angry and embittered with the state of Engineers to take a deep breath and start again with the new GD, then I suggest it is high time to get new ones. If all a professional is going to do is sit and say "meh what's the point, GOD HIMSELF hates Engineers" then that leaves you no room for any improvement at all.

Think about it. You catch more flies with honey. Who is going to give people anything if you always come across as people who will never ever be pleased?

[Hacre]

"the justification used for not giving us this no longer stands" thread, which is something completely different. For several years now whenever the concept of lowered casting requirements on engy pets has come up, the response has always been that the duration of our pets justified the higher reqs as we (supposedly) had a "huge" advantage in this aspect. That said, now that both MP and Crat pets are being extended to 2 hours that advantage is now pretty much gone and the justification for our higher casting requirements has gone with it.

Was it FUNCOM'S response that you have infinite pet timers therefore you have harder requirements?

No? It was just a few forum trolls you say?

I see. Of course responding to trolling with more trolling is going to get you what you want. Your plan is flawless.

[Ferg]

Erf, accidentally deleted the wrong post in all my browser rummaging, reposting.

i see i've hit a nerve. so we're making some progress here.

of course i've read this whine... i mean.. thread. i can also quite clearly read the title of it. which is explicitly stating that because MPs got something, engies then must receive something as compensation.

now, i know you see no problems with this. and you'll ignore my individual thoughts on the matter cause you just see me as some "yet another random MP". which is quite disapointing, but totally expected in an online forum. especially since, because of such positions i do hold, had this "suggestion" been phrased and requested in a more pure form, and not put into some rant whining about MPs getting something, i might of very well have supported this issue. and such added weight to the position would help get it implimented.

sadly, i'm not sure i can ever do so now, as the responses have been so hostile and lacking in any substance which would have convinced me otherwise.

There's the problem, you've completely missed the background of this thread and instead warped it to say whatever it is you want it to. The thread isn't a "mps got something, we need something" thread, its a "the justification used for not giving us this no longer stands" thread, which is something completely different. For several years now whenever the concept of lowered casting requirements on engy pets has come up, the response has always been that the duration of our pets justified the higher reqs as we (supposedly) had a "huge" advantage in this aspect. That said, now that both MP and Crat pets are being extended to 2 hours that advantage is now pretty much gone and the justification for our higher casting requirements should be gone with it. Asking that the situation be looked at again really should not be too much to ask, but you'd rather flame it to hell because you need to defend your epeen. Remember that your pets were only "improved" to cure an annoyance, as Means put it, not because you have some god given right to it or are completely useless without it (as you'd like everyone to think), we're only asking that we be given the same opportunity with one of our annoyances.

[Ferg]

Was it FUNCOM'S response that you have infinite pet timers therefore you have harder requirements?

No? It was just a few forum trolls you say?

I see. Of course responding to trolling with more trolling is going to get you what you want. Your plan is flawless.

No Funcom employee ever directly posted on the issue (this is Funcom we're talking about, you should know they never post in the profession forums), but from what I remember our professional at the time stated that Funcom did in fact agree with the stance when he proposed the idea in closed discussions.

[Klodovik]

block of text

Look, we both know why bungerman made this thread and why he made it in (deliberately) wrong forum section.

It was not made to point out that "justification used for not giving you lower reqs no longer stands".

[bungerman]

Look, we both know why bungerman made this thread and why he made it in (deliberately) wrong forum section.

It was not made to point out that "justification used for not giving you lower reqs no longer stands".

no, please Klod, open our eyes of what I was truly thinking only the way a troll god can! You think I wanted to read pages of offtopic stuff from the MP troll squad? nope, ferg was pretty much spot on in his assessment below.

The thread isn't a "mps got something, we need something" thread, its a "the justification used for not giving us this no longer stands" thread, which is something completely different.

you say it's in the wrong section, but apparently not, it's still here where it is most visible. To keep it here, I had to relate it to the MP change ofc, but it ultimately does relate to the reasoning behind our pets requirements given to us previously.

WHY DO YOU ALL INSIST ON ASKING FOR LOWER NANO REQS WE DONT NEED INSTEAD OF FOCUSING ON WHAT WE DO?

because that's why the new nanos are insanely high instead of stupidly high, because FC saw the pet reqs and the "challenge" we were suppose to have for casting them came from having even higher reqs than anything before. They didn't realize it was already a challenge at that time for those nanos, then they make even more ridiculous requirements?? And that's how we ended up at 2147 MC/TS. You know they used those as a starting point, c'mon. If those are lowered then then next "challenging" nanos won't be ungodly amounts of MC/TS.

and BTW how's your AS recharge without full AS imps, sniper's friend and god knows what else that you sacrificed?

[Technogen]

Can we just drop this stupidity of who's dumb or dumber and get back to the topic at hand? Seriously these threads end up being more name calling then actual content.


I dont see FC changing the requirements on current nanos, I think we should wait and see what the new symbs will offer before we go yelling but I do hope any future nanos will not exceed the highest pet.

If I was going to complain about anything I would like the 7x team blockers and Pet Reflect to be the same nano requirements as the Widow.

[Klodovik]

You think I wanted to read pages of offtopic stuff from the MP troll squad?

I know you did.

and BTW how's your AS recharge without full AS imps, sniper's friend and god knows what else that you sacrificed?

I know mine is some 30 seconds.

[Snakeyes]

Ok im for lowering requirements. If this happens



Eng are the Only pet profession that gets their 220 pet with out jumping through hoops like Mp's and crats/ (Biodome any one) Eng should have to Build the nano for all their pets, Eng should have collect 50 parts and assemble said parts into a nano. That would be more inline with what an Engineer is.

[Ferg]

Ok im for lowering requirements. If this happens



Eng are the Only pet profession that gets their 220 pet with out jumping through hoops like Mp's and crats/ (Biodome any one) Eng should have to Build the nano for all their pets, Eng should have collect 50 parts and assemble said parts into a nano. That would be more inline with what an Engineer is.

You mean like our dog is already? That excuse died last patch.

[Flyingengi]

You mean like our dog is already? That excuse died last patch.

Every profession has to do that...so THAT excuse doesn't work. Just put engi pet in biodome. I'd be happy to have to get 50 parts to get a new healpet

[Obtena]

As much as I would like lower reqs on engi pets, I think that it is a red herring to make a link between casting reqs and duration. The issue for MP's is usefulness of pets. Pets that you have to cast 4-5 times during a raid and rebuff is not entirely useful and FC appears to think so also.

Just because MP pets are now more useable has no reason to make engi pets more accessible.

Now, if the OP requested to make engi pets more useable somehow (like pathing, etc...) , then there would be a relevant discussion here. Otherwise, it's more like sibling rivalry where one sibling gets something, the other wants it too.