[RK1] IRRK Freelance: Newland's Peace Project Rejected by Omni-Tek

[Jenshiye]

... because we are Omni-Tek, I really believe we protect and anyone to say anything to the contrary is a lunatic.

[trousers]

finders are keepers eh? when you leave something only to collect dust, its better that someone uses it..

Uses it; Correct. What you and the others are suggesting is that you own in. Possession and Ownership are two entirely different things, Sir. I suppose by your logic you would suggest members of the Clans own Omni-2 also?

would you leave if your radar went poof, or are ya too damn stupid to see that you are more in the way than you are useable..

We're not discussing Borealis' Radar Array. I'm going to assume you mean the subspace transmission dish, because I doubt you would try to call someone stupid when you're not even discussing the same topic as everyone else. So to answer the question I presume you're asking; No. If the Transmission Dish were to go 'poof', Omni-Tek would no longer require such a large military presence in Borealis but guards would need to remain to ensure peace. I cannot speak to if Omni-Tek would request the ICC re-deploy Peacekeepers, but I would presume they would.

times have changed, omni isn't as powerful as before... Why don't you just step back before more people gets hurt?

Times have indeed changed, and it's mostly due to ICC Regulating the size of the Omni-Tek Military on Rubi-Ka. Since you're allowing your militant side to show again, Minister, allow me to remind you of something. If the Neutrals take up arms against Omni-Tek because they're not that Omni-Tek is abiding by laws that will make the Neutrals Terrorists just like the Clans.

Should Omni-Tek Petition the ICC and make the case that Rubi-Ka's exports could cease because of disruptions from fighting a war on three fronts odds are greatly in favor of the ICC lifting the Military restrictions. Then would you like to see how weak the Corporation's Military Machine is?

The blood of the people are on your hands..

You can attempt to scapegoat Omni-Tek all you like, Minister, but your points are weak and filled with your personal hatred. If the Neutral Citizens of Borealis continue to act is a self-destructive fashion they will continue to suffer. If they accept the facts of reality normalcy will return.

And...

... because we are Omni-Tek, I really believe we protect and anyone to say anything to the contrary is a lunatic.

Incorrect, Miss. Most of the folks discussing this topic would fall into the category of Radical or Terrorist, only you are the lunatic.

[Kotts]

Nothing like waking up to that fresh smell of oppression in the morning eh?

[Towerblock]

For argument's sake we have a disagreement. Let's talk theoretics.

I posses something that another person disagrees about, say something innocuous.. like its color. I state the color is red. The other person affirms that it is not red, but in fact is the color blue.

Who is correct?

Technically speaking, both can be correct. The only person who is going to have the opportunity to claim such a thing, is the person with the resources to enforce it. That does not substantiate what is truth, only the illusion of control.

Now we fast-forward to a similar, more real-life (and controversial) argument:

I suppose by your logic you would suggest members of the Clans own Omni-2 also?

How does one claim lordship over something they do not possess?

That city doesn't exist anymore. It has since been occupied, renovated, re-organized, re-populated, re-tooled, and has a healthy reputation as being one of the greatest centers of clan commerce. Perhaps more successful attempts at reclaiming it would seem to validate the Omni-tek claim on it. But alas, such is not the case.

Extrapolate this as necessary.

[trousers]

That city doesn't exist anymore.

"What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet."

What you call Athens we call the Clan Occupied City of Omni-2.

The land was never given to the Clans, it was stolen after the residents of the city were slaughtered. Therefore, Omni-Tek still retains a claim to the land and the assets it supports. Furthermore, Just because Omni-Tek hasn't exercised its claim to the land yet, does not mean that we have forfeit it.

[Towerblock]

What you call Athens we call the Clan Occupied City of Omni-2.

The land was never given to the Clans, it was stolen after the residents of the city were slaughtered. Therefore, Omni-Tek still retains a claim to the land and the assets it supports. Furthermore, Just because Omni-Tek hasn't exercised its claim to the land yet, does not mean that we have forfeit it.

Ah, so then.. the color is blue. Interesting. But, you can't enforce it. Therefore, I am forced to concluded that Omni-tek is either lying or bragging about their 'hold' over it, or that they are unwilling to part with their illusion of ownership.

Either way, I remain unconvinced of your affirmation. Omni-tek has ZERO hold over Athens. Perhaps in the future, but then again the future is unwritten, and therefor all things are open to the same scrutiny. For example, I can say using the same template, that I own Trouser's kidneys, and he is merely holding onto them for me for a time.

Same difference? Or, shall I call them "The Trouser Claimed Internal Organ That Processes Urine." Furthermore, just because I have not exercised my claim to his kidneys, does not mean that I have forfeit them.

[trousers]

Ah, so then.. the color is blue. Interesting. But, you can't enforce it. Therefore, I am forced to concluded that Omni-tek is either lying or bragging about their 'hold' over it, or that they are unwilling to part with their illusion of ownership.

Either way, I remain unconvinced of your affirmation. Omni-tek has ZERO hold over Athens. Perhaps in the future, but then again the future is unwritten, and therefor all things are open to the same scrutiny.

You're altering the situation in order to try to bolster your position, Sir, which is not a smart thing to do.

At no point did I say that Omni-Tek claims to hold Omni-2. The Corporation openly acknowledges the fact that the City fell, it's citizens were mercilessily slaughtered by the assaulting Clans, and it is now in the hands of terrorists.

What I did say is that Omni-Tek still has a legal claim to the land and it's contents. If you disagree, speak to the ICC about the Terms of Omni-Tek's Lease. If the majority of parties call the color blue, then I'm afraid you, sir, are the only one calling it red.

For example, I can say using the same template, that I own Trouser's kidneys, and he is merely holding onto them for me for a time.

Same difference? Or, shall I call them "The Trouser Claimed Internal Organ That Processes Urine." Furthermore, just because I have not exercised my claim to his kidneys, does not mean that I have forfeit them.

The example you stated is the exact situation the Neutral Citizens of Borealis are in. You have no claim over my Kidneys since they were given to me by my Parents. You could claim you own them, you could kill me and take them, however that doesn't make your claim that they were yours any more valid.

[Towerblock]

You're altering the situation in order to try to bolster your position, Sir, which is not a smart thing to do.

Altering what situation? My only point of interest was when you tried to affirm that somehow your company masters are claim lordship over something that they do not possess, which is entirely false. I have altered nothing.

At no point did I say that Omni-Tek claims to hold Omni-2. The Corporation openly acknowledges the fact that the City fell, it's citizens were mercilessily slaughtered by the assaulting Clans, and it is now in the hands of terrorists.

All semantics aside, you imply it. You are affirming that I am also using some pretty interesting metaphors to discolour the situation, and yet here you are.. doing the same by using highly overdramatic words of your own. Yet again, I remain strong in my own beliefs, and laugh at those of the company.

I fail to see what is supposed to be a mutually agreed upon 'proper' point of reference. So, then as I predicted, we are at an impasse. Therefore, what happens next? The truth remains that we are here, and you are not. Ergo, not yours.

What I did say is that Omni-Tek still has a legal claim to the land and it's contents. If you disagree, speak to the ICC about the Terms of Omni-Tek's Lease. If the majority of parties call the color blue, then I'm afraid you, sir, are the only one calling it red.

Its true they hold a document, but the document was written by them. Furthering the evidence of the theoretical question. You're gunna have to do better than that.

The example you stated is the exact situation the Neutral Citizens of Borealis are in. You have no claim over my Kidneys since they were given to me by my Parents. You could claim you own them, you could kill me and take them, however that doesn't make your claim that they were yours any more valid.

I think if you are dead, then who's left to argue the point? See, it works both ways.

[Jenshiye]

*Raises an eyebrow.*

[trousers]

Altering what situation? My only point of interest was when you tried to affirm that somehow your company masters are claim lordship over something that they do not possess, which is entirely false. I have altered nothing.

Again, Sir, you're quite wrong. I speak of true ownership while you speak of possession. Please try to convince a victim of a theft that no wrong as been committed and that they should relinquish claim over the stolen possession because since it is now in the hands of the thief it is now clearly theirs, forever.

I'm fairly confident, Sir, that the victim will call you want you are and seek out the local, and clearly more qualified, officials to deal with the situation.

And before you try to spin the situation, which you seem to be so fond of doing, this example applies only to possessions one originally owned.

All semantics aside, you imply it. You are affirming that I am also using some pretty interesting metaphors to discolour the situation, and yet here you are.. doing the same by using highly overdramatic words of your own. Yet again, I remain strong in my own beliefs, and laugh at those of the company.

I fail to see what is supposed to be a mutually agreed upon 'proper' point of reference. So, then as I predicted, we are at an impasse. Therefore, what happens next? The truth remains that we are here, and you are not. Ergo, not yours.

I stated three times that the Clans do not own Omni-2 and twice that Omni-Tek does not control it. I'm not certain there is a more concise way of putting it; If I say we don't control something, but you say we claim to, I think the difference is once again coming up short on your side of the table.

Its true they hold a document, but the document was written by them. Furthering the evidence of the theoretical question. You're gunna have to do better than that.

The Document is none the less official. I will tell you the same thing I tell everyone else. If you're not happy with the terms of Omni-Tek Legal Lease I'd be more then happy to escort you to the shuttle port and pay for your ticket off of Rubi-Ka so that you can settle on a planet not controlled by Omni-Tek. Since I feel I'm not going out on a limb assuming you will not accept that all I can say to you is "Tough Break." Those are the rules that apply to this planet and unfortunately for you, you'll need to live by them.

I think if you are dead, then who's left to argue the point? See, it works both ways.

My money is on the Police or other local authority. Just because you snuff out the source of the problem does not mean the larger governing authority will not act to punish you.

[playboyfixer]

get a room ((somewhere on RK2))

[Towerblock]

Again, Sir, you're quite wrong. I speak of true ownership while you speak of possession. Please try to convince a victim of a theft that no wrong as been committed and that they should relinquish claim over the stolen possession because since it is now in the hands of the thief it is now clearly theirs, forever.

I have, many time. I am a bounty hunter for this reason. I am hired to recover stolen property sometimes. Many clanspeople understand the theory of ownership, in at least mind, if not in philosophical deed. To point out which section of possession that I fall under in my job, I fall under the enforcement arm. That means when someone says that something is theirs, they work out a contract with me, and I enforce the ownership of said item to the point that its possession returns to its previous owner. In my line of work, the question of ownership is often established by 'who had it last' and the person who wishes it return must show proof that it was in fact theirs at a very recent point in time.

I'm fairly confident, Sir, that the victim will call you want you are and seek out the local, and clearly more qualified, officials to deal with the situation.

Considering you don't have much idea of what its like to live in a clan world, then perhaps you should realize that there is no one more qualified. We are the official, and we have enjoyed a great success rate.

And before you try to spin the situation, which you seem to be so fond of doing, this example applies only to possessions one originally owned.

The wonderful thing about logical debate, is the spin of viewpoint perceived by one person or another. Ever wonder why scholars can argue over just about anything, at the drop of a hat? Its because point of view colors everything. Herein lies the problem. It destroys worlds, even.

I stated three times that the Clans do not own Omni-2 and twice that Omni-Tek does not control it. I'm not certain there is a more concise way of putting it; If I say we don't control something, but you say we claim to, I think the difference is once again coming up short on your side of the table.

I like how you seem to point out that while my position has not even budged, you are one to say that I come up short at every turn. Here I am defending my view, and nothing has changed of it. I needn't even really continue it, because no matter what you have said, still simply cannot override the fact that you dont have our city anymore. Telling me how much more it IS yours, would imply that you intend on collecting it. But, how many tries have failed? So, forgive me if your words seem hollow. I dont mean that as a personal insult, only pointing out the reality of the situation.

The Document is none the less official. I will tell you the same thing I tell everyone else. If you're not happy with the terms of Omni-Tek Legal Lease I'd be more then happy to escort you to the shuttle port and pay for your ticket off of Rubi-Ka so that you can settle on a planet not controlled by Omni-Tek. Since I feel I'm not going out on a limb assuming you will not accept that all I can say to you is "Tough Break." Those are the rules that apply to this planet and unfortunately for you, you'll need to live by them.

Fair enough, lets hazard the other side of the coin then, shall we? Your document was written by you, officiated by you, and enforced by you (which has failed), therefor what worth is your document? I am not so happy about Omni-tek vaulting itself into its own empire, but thats another argument for another time. I handle that business seperately. Thank you for the thought of helping me leave, but I have every intention on staying. Since you cannot force me or my people to move, all I can say to you is "Tough Break" We are here, a product of your own creation. I am not going to apologize for whats been done. Kharma has a funny way.

My money is on the Police or other local authority. Just because you snuff out the source of the problem does not mean the larger governing authority will not act to punish you.

In our neck of the woods, we are the local authority. I don't expect someone from Omni-tek to understand what our governing body is about. I am quite sure it helps them sleep better by labelling us as everything that is wrong with society, and just be done with it. I can empathize with the easy path to a degree in that regard. But, lets get to the root of what this means.

Again, the impasse is in effect. Red? Blue? Or the sword? Its clear and cut and dried for all of us clansfolk. We have our way, and you have yours.

I merely wanted you, Trousers, to understand that we do not yield.

[Towerblock]

get a room

Would you like an invite? I hear you are one sexy beast.

[Kotts]

Don't get him started Bubba...

[Nyadach]

You know, as amusing as all the pathetic banner waving from the Clans and Omni stoogies maybe, it does little to progress this situation.

Back to the matter at hand....Borealis. After all the ranting and raving about Omni-Tek wanting to hold Borealis solely to protect the dish, is as it has always been nothing more than a smoke covered lie. The offer to replace the dish is both valid and one which even for monitary gains, is one which is very attractive to Omni-Tek...or would be if the dish was anything to do with the Borealis situation, which they know as well as some others of us, it's not!

Omni-Teks snide remarks about the quality of neutral engineers are such that it may be they need reminding of whom it was who were the first people to develop every major engineering feature of the mechanised weapon systems on this world. It wasn't Omni-Tek, nor was it the Clans!

We may not have the resources or the man power of Omni-Tek, but we have the freedom and the ability to think fast and adapt that has made the neutral population stand so well against all the threats it has faced. Omni-Tek may not like our freedom, but they better learn that it is better to follow their previously leaders decisions with the granting of neutral freedom to Jobe...not like they had a choice! The people of Borealis want their freedom. And how painful that is for the corporation is solely up to Omni-Tek.

As for the dish going "poof". I am more than sure that would have no effect on the situation at all. After all, it's got nothing to do with Omni-Tek being in Borealis.

[Jenshiye]

Hear, hear!

Keep your dish, build a whole military camp around it but take those troops out of the city.

[Iaitoo]

Uses it; Correct. What you and the others are suggesting is that you own in. Possession and Ownership are two entirely different things, Sir. I suppose by your logic you would suggest members of the Clans own Omni-2 also?

But they do own it... I can't see you do anything to claim your ownership... You're a bit late to claim your ownership over Borealis... it's a neutral city.

[trousers]

But they do own it... I can't see you do anything to claim your ownership... You're a bit late to claim your ownership over Borealis... it's a neutral city.

Your logic is terribly flawed sir. In the same breath you say the Clans own Omni-2 because they occupy it and you say Borealis is not Omni-Tek's even as the Corporation occupies it.

I will allow you as much time as you need to re-think your conclusion and the logic you used to get there.

[Iaitoo]

Clan isn't occupying omni-2 they own it.
Omni is occupying Borealis, but the true spirit of the city is still neutral. And this occupation aren't really permanent anyway.

[trousers]

Clan isn't occupying omni-2 they own it.
Omni is occupying Borealis, but the true spirit of the city is still neutral. And this occupation aren't really permanent anyway.

I'm sure your citizens are very proud of your powers of deduction.