Black Market - From Envisioned List

[_______________Intra]

Hey Whiter :P
I am slowly learning everyones forum names that match with character names.. I should really learn to pay attention

I'm not too keen on your grid phreak to leave idea, I think linking the BM with any fixer nano is a bit daft, because we're not spell casters... all dark blue stats (oh... and I dont have grid phreak yet myself.. cus of the dark blueness of our skills)

see you in RK

[Yyerinfahr]

I assure you... if this is a special - it had better be special. I don't want to see *any* other class with it. Period. I don't care if you can see the 'role' of the other class or not. No agent FP, no trader, no one but fixers. put it in mayhem, drag us to jail - do whatever you like. But if you get anywhere near it, every single one of our maussers will be pointed in your direction.

Here's why: Its going to have a complit req: face it. That means once again traders will beat fixers at getting goods because of their self buff. Agents will do the same, *and* be able to FP trader, wait until it is just about to end, Cast the complit buff, FP as a Fixer and then take Mongo bonus from this - and really screw fixers out of a niche. I mean, come on, its not like we actually have grid armor even... people are charghing fixers 10Mil for a QL60 instruction disc (not even the actual nano), and it is time for our freakin slice of the pie too.

Comp lit and level are going to have a major relation to the goods available *I am positive* of this. But if it isn't available from level 2 on, it is going to be worthless, reduce the quality ofthe goods, reduce the availibility at that level, but make it available to every fixer from level one on... A black market isn't the island of jobe... out in the open and easily available... its freakin shady deals... and I'll tell you right now, I'm all for jobe being for nanos only, and *under certain special protocol situations involving dignitaries of other organizatios* be accessable by other classes. but the black market? You know a fixer - that's your contact. You've already got our grid access and the traders blow us by for comp lit bonus, so let us have a little someting, ok?

/me tries to control seething temper... must not fly into rage again today...

[________________Crin]

I like the idea of the black market having random locations. In fact I love it. How about making a nano that when cast, will give you the next time and location for the black market. There would of course be different QLs of the nano. The higher ones would give you access to the better markets and in turn give you access to better goods.

The markets could be located anywhere, but if you enter one you lose all protection from the gas suppression for a period of time. Also you will have a bounty placed on your head. This would be visible to anyone that pulled up you stats. If a player or a guard kills the Fixer during this time, he would have money automatically deducted from his account as well as the item, to be used as the reward.

Now for the really nasty part. The item that the fixer buys would not be located at the market. After all would you have the evidence just lying around? When the fixer buys the item, he is given a mission that gives the item’s location. All the Fixer has to do is go to that location to retrieve the goods. You could have the Fixer go through multiple locations to find and talk to NPCs in order to learn the final destination. The syndicate would want to make sure you weren’t being followed before exposing themselves.

On the flip side:
You know you would have players that would want to hunt these Fixers down for the sport and money. They could pose as a customer to bait the Fixer or just look for any shady characters standing around looking for a deal. Heaven forbid that a Fixer offers his services over the shopping channel or through a shout out. When a Fixer did his “run”, he would be very paranoid indeed.

For this to be worth the trouble, I think the market should have goods from other fixers as well as some that are generated by the game. That way you would be assured to have a good supply.

[Yyerinfahr]

Ok Crin, sounds like a bunch of good ideas here's the catch... if the market is more hassle than the good it can produce, the fixer will not use it, and will resort to other, older methods. I tried to create intrest in a gambling ring... but as several people pointed out, it was economnically unviable because while yes it created a RP event, the cash/time invested reward was potentially so low that it was unviable. If a level 50 fixer can camp a terminal, run a mission for a QL67 senpai coat which he can sell for 100K, why would he enter a black market, pay an exorbitant fee, put a price on his head, and still have to run a mission for the same QL67 coat?

I like the idea of a black market, you've just got to be careful as to how far you are willing to shoot yourself in the foot to get it...

Moving it around? Yes
Varrying QL ones? Yes
Rare items? Definitely
Jail? Yes. And yes, every fixer needs a sleazy lawyer (crat) and a probation officer (Soldier/enforcer).
Price on head? Mmmm... I would be interested in seing the guards go nuts... not necessarily players though... the fixer is not a real good PvP class from level 40 to level 170... or so I hear about the high level ones... that kinda puts the fixer really up the river... though yes, we are good at running and rooting...

I'm all for it being a bit of roleplay, I'm all for it being kinda dodgy and paranoid infusing, but are there other ways to do that without the risk of cripling the usefulness of the market?

[_____________Alexion]

Originally posted by Failed Fixer
If its a mayhem zone then higher levels will camp it till a green fixer comes out and jump him. Shades of EQ for equiptment eh? But overall the blackmarket idea actually make me hyper and i hope it improves my class a bit. Hey heres a idea maybe it sells grid armor in it too.

Thats why the fixer would find bodyguards to help him. Increases character interaction. If this escalates into wild melees around a black market dealer with some real uber item involving 20-30 players all representing different groups with different intentions... well, i think most of us dream of something like that happening.

This was mentioned in my original post.

Oh and btw, if a fixer just walks blindly into a dangerous area w/o any help, IMHO he just earned his trip to the recyclers. Fixers are supposed to be cunning... that involves a bit of intelligence (not intended as a flame, just a RP perspective)

[_____________Alexion]

Originally posted by Trimus
Alexion,

I think if Agents get access to the BM through false professions then there should be a chance of them getting caught, and if they do... the punishement should be severe.

The Black market would be a risky place for fixers themselves, but should be even more so for someone impersonating them.

I'm personally not too keen on the mayhem zone idea. especially if the BM is not going to be stationary. it would be very easy for you to find out when you are close to it because the supression gas would fall to zero. if the BM is on the move them sometimes it would be in a mayhem zone anyway. so sometimes it wuld be more dangerous than others.

also, I think that it should be on the move anyway, as fixers are meant to be a the 'masters of travel'

First, I love the idea of agents potentially getting smacked for trying to sneak into the BM. I'm willing to take risks and even the occasional trip to the recycler, in fact get quite a rush out of it. The more RP the better.

Looking for mayhem zones where they don't belong... yah, that is a weakness of my idea. But I still think the strengths out weigh it. Maybe seed the zones where the BM might be with several mayham zones to make it harder to find... have the BM randomly appear in one of them? Just an idea.

[________________Crin]

Yyerinfhar ,

I was actually having a hard time coming up with a way to make it challenging. Remember that the fixer is a very hard character to kill if he wants to be. At the levels where the black market would be useful the Fixer would have grid evac nanos and incredible speed compared to other players. The Fixer isn't interested in getting into a PvP fight, we just want our goods and to get paid. You would have to work pretty hard to catch a Fixer and if he could get into a Yalmaha, it is all over.

To be honest, I think that most of the time the Fixer would just find the market and pick up the item. The only time you would be vulnerable would be entering and leaving the market and making all the stops on the way to picking up the item. If you were observant and kept a low profile, you would be pretty safe. In fact the only character class that could give you trouble would be another Fixer No honor among thieves I guess.

btw That would be pretty cool. A Fixer chasing a Fixer through air, the grid, and cities. The one Fixer trying lose the other and pick up the item before time expires. Throw some kind of tracking device into the game and things could get really interesting.
And speaking of bond type gagets, geting agents involved somehow with their false profession would also be a nice twist.
Agents couldn't actually use the Black Market, but could find out where one was and try to catch a Fixer in the act.

[_____________Alexion]

Originally posted by Crin
I'm still reading this thread so if this has been mentioned excuse me.

I think that the back market should be ebay in the game. Nothing more or less. If you want to sell your mission loot for more than you would get at a shop. Sell it to a Fixer and he will use his contacts to get you the best price. Need a hard to find item. Once again, ask you local Fixer to see if he can find it for you.

FC is also trying to implement player-owned shops. (I think thats what your talking about) The black market is a different idea involving rare items for sale, possibly w/ class restrictions for access.

[_____________Alexion]

Originally posted by Yyerinfhar
I assure you... if this is a special - it had better be special. I don't want to see *any* other class with it. Period. I don't care if you can see the 'role' of the other class or not. No agent FP, no trader, no one but fixers. put it in mayhem, drag us to jail - do whatever you like. But if you get anywhere near it, every single one of our maussers will be pointed in your direction.

Here's why: Its going to have a complit req: face it. That means once again traders will beat fixers at getting goods because of their self buff. Agents will do the same, *and* be able to FP trader, wait until it is just about to end, Cast the complit buff, FP as a Fixer and then take Mongo bonus from this - and really screw fixers out of a niche. I mean, come on, its not like we actually have grid armor even... people are charghing fixers 10Mil for a QL60 instruction disc (not even the actual nano), and it is time for our freakin slice of the pie too.

Comp lit and level are going to have a major relation to the goods available *I am positive* of this. But if it isn't available from level 2 on, it is going to be worthless, reduce the quality ofthe goods, reduce the availibility at that level, but make it available to every fixer from level one on... A black market isn't the island of jobe... out in the open and easily available... its freakin shady deals... and I'll tell you right now, I'm all for jobe being for nanos only, and *under certain special protocol situations involving dignitaries of other organizatios* be accessable by other classes. but the black market? You know a fixer - that's your contact. You've already got our grid access and the traders blow us by for comp lit bonus, so let us have a little someting, ok?

/me tries to control seething temper... must not fly into rage again today...

A: Try to keep me out w/ you maussier and I"ll bring half my guild in w/ me. You bring half you guild and we'll have a great old time. Wait, I already brought up this idea

B: I think the idea that bm is gonna be tied with com lit came from another player saying the bm should be accessed directly from the grid. I haven't heard anything from funcom about this (or about anything else for that matter) and I really hope they don't do this. The bm should be first and foremost a fixer place, and your comlit isn't any better than anyone elses.

C: BTW, doing the trader comlit buff then going fixer with an agent would be very difficult. Harder then FP:trader then MP to get mega pets. The duration is shorter and it sounds like there'd be movement involved. I'm not saying impossible, but most likely nearly so.

[________________7084]

Ok, we've dealt with how, and who gets access to the blackmarket (Though i don't really want the bad to outweigh the good. Some of the propsitions seem pretty harsh to me! ) but what do want to be SOLD in the blackmarket? If we are at high risk, what do we want the benefit to be? What do you mean by "Rare" items? Perhaps some examples could be useful.

P.S. Keep this up guys, the bigger the thread gets the more lickely it is to get an FC response! Come on!

[Teknolord]

Originally posted by Alexion
A: Try to keep me out w/ you maussier and I"ll bring half my guild in w/ me. You bring half you guild and we'll have a great old time. Wait, I already brought up this idea

Bring your guild and all fixers will show up with their entire guilds pointing their maussers.. And let me say, even though we do only 25 as lowest damage, some 100 maussers WILL kill you
Coz i totally agree with Yyerinfhar: Let the BM be OURS. We have NOTHING AT ALL which is just ours, and noone elses. Engis got TP nanos (even more useful than ours), nt's too, speed buffs hardly is useful for people who already got yalmahas (and more and more do, even low levels!)... So the use for a fixer is NONE at the moment. BM will give use for us, and will give -us- something which we want and want to make us play fixers. Period.

Crin:

Originally posted by Crin
I was actually having a hard time coming up with a way to make it challenging. Remember that the fixer is a very hard character to kill if he wants to be. At the levels where the black market would be useful the Fixer would have grid evac nanos and incredible speed compared to other players. The Fixer isn't interested in getting into a PvP fight, we just want our goods and to get paid. You would have to work pretty hard to catch a Fixer and if he could get into a Yalmaha, it is all over.

True, but that also makes it just useless, rite? Why make it a race, when its no need to race?
Compare this to e.g some of the nanos: Do MA's get a brick in their head every time they cast SG? Do Enforcers have demons chasing them each time they cast Essence buffs?
Would MA's enter their private Dojo if they had to run over burning pits of lava with certain death almost likely?
I think not.
Let the black market be a ROLEPLAYING OPTION, not a addon to other professions giving them yet another good reason to hunt just US... The idea of the black market is to make us wanted by other players, but not wanted to be KILLED??? What stupid idea is that? Envy?

[________________Crin]

Originally posted by Teknolord

Let the black market be a ROLEPLAYING OPTION, not a addon to other professions giving them yet another good reason to hunt just US... The idea of the black market is to make us wanted by other players, but not wanted to be KILLED??? What stupid idea is that? Envy?

Envy... umm no.... I am a Fixer.

We wanted to be the shady types. What is the point of being a thief without the threat of being caught? As for why the PvP: It would be too hard to code the mobs AI to catch us. It takes intellegence to trap a thief and I just don't see mobs doing it. Would a mob listen to the shopping channels to locate an arrogant Fixer? Would they lie in wait at popular meeting places and the pose as a customer? Short answer, no.

I see the Black Market as a way to give our class a soul, not as a way to unnerf us. For that I would want NCU hacking nanos, actually make our Perception, B&E and Disarm Traps skill worth something or something else. The BM will do nothing to help us find a group, it is our trade skill

The Black Market allows us to get goods that others want. Granted a NT doesn't have to worry about getting killed when making an implant, but when I am sneaking through the side street of a city trying to see if someone if following me, I want it to be out of real concern for my safety, not because I felt like roleplaying that day.

---

On another point. I am starting to have problems thinking of exactly what would be the rare to find items that we would get on the BM. Rare items will be given out on missions and dungeons both static and dynamic, the Fixer's summon line, trades and finally the black market. There aren't enough rare items in the game to offer as rewards for all those tasks. If Fixers were allowed to get every hard to get item in the game what would everybody else do. Buy credits off of ebay to pay us?

[______________Windie]

Originally posted by Crin


On another point. I am starting to have problems thinking of exactly what would be the rare to find items that we would get on the BM. Rare items will be given out on missions and dungeons both static and dynamic, the Fixer's summon line, trades and finally the black market. There aren't enough rare items in the game to offer as rewards for all those tasks. If Fixers were allowed to get every hard to get item in the game what would everybody else do. Buy credits off of ebay to pay us?

I think it would be really simple: just make all those find-only items available in the BM, but give the shops a REALLY high turnover. With each dealer carrying maybe 30 items, it could be a while for you to get the right item (considering qual and such, maybe a LONG while). And if they wanna pay exorbient prices to get the goods from us, why is that bad? I ~do~ think we should make 'em pay an arm and a leg tho, ESPECIALLY if any unique BM only stuff comes up.

[________________7084]

Agreed, as well as mission, loot only stuff, there should also be Blackmarket stuff. Items you can ONLY get in the blackmarket.

[________________Crin]

Originally posted by Windie

it could be a while for you to get the right item (considering qual and such, maybe a LONG while).

I really don't want to have to camp the BM to get stuff. I would much rather it was easy to find the items you wanted but hard to get it. Now all of this is just starting to sound like the good old mission terminals. I am going to have to think a little more on this one.

[_____________Nakomis]

To everyone who posted that the suggestions for jail time and such for penalties were too harsh, I have this to say to you.

It can't be death. Whatever the penalty is, it -can't- be death.

Why you ask? Simple. "Death is not final"

Nobody in this game really cares whether their character dies or not, unless they are two XP from a level and they haven't scanned recently. It just isn't a harsh enough punishment. You don't see people in teams screaming that they can't die because of the penalties. It's a poor punishment. I really hate the way EQ has it's death penalty system, with being able to lose levels and such from dying enough, but at least there people really worry about dying too much.

Personally, I think prison is the way to go. Cap the amount of time prescribed in a sentence to something like 5 hours play time. Make it so that jail isn't too light either, not just a slap on the wrist and a set of fresh sheets for the night. Take credits, take equipment, SOMETHING. I really like the idea I had said before, where everytime you get sent to jail, you are stripped of all your equipment. Make the whole prison a mayhem zone, so that you could have large amounts of players getting into prison brawls. Imagine it, 20 pissed off fixers all unskilled in hand to hand combat, fighting each other to waste time. It'd certainly be something to do.

I also think that prison should be made a viable punishment for other classes as well. It'd be kind of boring to only ever have fixers in the prisons. Make it a place that ARKs and GMs could send troublemakers. Things like that. But as far as punishments for getting caught in the BM go? Make it severe enough that you'll think twice before shouting your stole goods are for sale.

Catch ya planetside.

[Whiterrabbit]

five hours? thats insane! why do we need to go to jail for trying to play the game? some penalty if you get caught yeah... more severe penalty for false profesioners, like permanant ban (jk), but i was thinking about a small fine, say 300creds per Q of the item.

Why do we as fixers need to say, "hold on funcom, this is too good for us, better give it some big drawbacks too"? after all we've been through, why do we want fc to screw us more?

just make the BM fixer only, in the grid, and make it have some very cool stuff indeed. like grid armour

[________________Crin]

Jail is one of those things that sounds good from a role playing standpoint but just won't work in game. Losing money seems to be the best way to go. Like I said before the BM is the Fixer's trade skill which it meant to make money so the appropriate penaty for failure is to lose money.

You can even call it bail or a bribe if you need to attach some roleplaying to it.

[Downsizr]

Loosing money is an option too.

Jail still is nice but of course nothing more than maybe 15 min. Because we all want to have fun here and not being spanked for playing the game.

[lilnymph]

As the owner of a brand spanking new fixer (started before I heard about the black market, I'm so happy) and also an agent, this is what I would like to see. Firstly, the Blackmarket should be for fixers only, no traders, tho they should get some sort of wholesale outlet or something. Traders should have to keep mostly to the law, and while some will occasionally break it, I think having access to the blackmarket is pushing it abit, they should get in contact with fixers for that. Secondly, Agents under FP fixer should have ACCESS, but not the ability to buy anything. After all, roleplaying wise, they should be able to go undercover into the blackmarket for specific "assignments", however I hardly feel that the CIA or MI5 would give its agents permission to go shopping while on assignment, so I dont think agents should be allowed either. what they should be able to do is maybe tap into the fixers channel, or the blackmarket chat or somehing, so they can maybe get an idea of who is buying what, and relay it to friends waiting for the fixers to leave, get the idea? however this should be risky, maybe a concealment check v's NPC guards (very observant ones, trained for this sort of thing) perception.

just my two pence worth, sorry if this has already been said, as I havent had chance to read the full thread yet