Nerf Heals?

[__________Tiyungphat]

Devils advocate time:

So FC nerfed damage to 50% in pvp. The masses seem to think nerfing the heals would only be fair. I disagree and this is why; I believe damage was nerfed for the simple fact that mobs have 5-10 times the HP a toon has, correct me if im wrong, but a 10k AS to certain mobs brings their HP down maybe 33%?? How many ppl have more than 10k HP? Nerfing the damage only made pvp MORE fair. I see it all as a ratio. mobs will not alpha you and their crits are no where near lets say a lvl 180 MA with UVC and 4 fists running. The only heal i could see them adjusting is the doc's CH. Maybe give it more of a recharge time or something but to nerf the heals would be silly. PVM is not PVP. The damage you do in PVM should not carry over to PVP. I believe heal nano's are blanced well for HP, regardless of pvp or pvm. Mobs do less damage over time to justify the heals and have more HP to demand more damage delt them. Now give everyone the capibility to cast rrfe and then its a different ball game

[Hajkster]

Originally posted by blackboots
Devils advocate time:

So FC nerfed damage to 50% in pvp. The masses seem to think nerfing the heals would only be fair. I disagree and this is why; I believe damage was nerfed for the simple fact that mobs have 5-10 times the HP a toon has, correct me if im wrong, but a 10k AS to certain mobs brings their HP down maybe 33%?? How many ppl have more than 10k HP? Nerfing the damage only made pvp MORE fair. I see it all as a ratio. mobs will not alpha you and their crits are no where near lets say a lvl 180 MA with UVC and 4 fists running. The only heal i could see them adjusting is the doc's CH. Maybe give it more of a recharge time or something but to nerf the heals would be silly. PVM is not PVP. The damage you do in PVM should not carry over to PVP. I believe heal nano's are blanced well for HP, regardless of pvp or pvm. Mobs do less damage over time to justify the heals and have more HP to demand more damage delt them. Now give everyone the capibility to cast rrfe and then its a different ball game

Now i wont support 100% dmg but.. most of people have suggested 100% dmg / 40% Max dmg of targets hp.. Oh But.. ignore me

[________Garzu-perman]

Of course they should nerf heals, same rules for dmg as for heals!!!

[Turin]

Originally posted by Clark "Garzuperman" Kent
Of course they should nerf heals, same rules for dmg as for heals!!!

God... not another "nerf docs" thread.

Im gonna go start my nerf traders thread now, thanks for reminding me.

[________Billy Talent]

Lets see, I do 90 percent damage to you and all you need to do is press a hot key and all that damage is completely healed. This is along the same lines of getting debuffed to lvl 1 and doing 1 point damage to to you. What is the difference?


I say you complete heal you deplete your nano 100 percent. Complete heal = 0 nano, and to re-execute it you need 100% nano pool.

If not let every damn profession CH and end of story. There will never be balance in PvP if you only allow some players to complete heal.

[______________Wahoo.]

Don't start yelling NERF without having a way to balance the profession your asking to be adjusted. NERFING heals is total BS. Do you understand how many classes this affects? Also if you nerf heals you have to adjust all the debuff classes as well.

Why.. ok.. A 200 doc
Example?
Trader debuffs for 415.. Example
That drops doc heals around to "Nano Surgery " a level 93 nano. (This is self-buffed)! Now this heals for 426-706 points of damage. IF you half heals you have (213-353 for heals).

Check this out.

So if we nerf heals then "Dr Hack 'n Quack " which heals for 362-370 points of damage every few seconds for the duration of the formula. Will out heal a doc. This cannot me the way this game was meant to be.


I’m not picking on any class and I’m not calling for a nerf. I'm just showing the facts as I see them. I don't see nerfing heals as an option at this time.

I don't think Meta's want there debuffs cut in half.
I bet soldiers don't want there Mk cut in half.
I don't think engi's want there reflects and bot cut in half.
I don't think ma's want their self-crit or heals cut in half.
I don't think traders want there drains messed with either.

I do think before you cry NERF. You should have a plan on how to fix the profession.

[-kromoz-]

/me agree 100% with LittleTotem

What do you want by asking for nerfs ?

Do you want everyone in this game to become a wannabe soldiers ?
Traders and docs wannabe soldiers with little heals ?
MP wannabe soldiers with useless pets ?
Cool just use the expertise nanos and let's all of us fight with pillows.
wOOt how fun it would be !
I don't want to play a game where all profs are almost the same.

Some profs are well balanced imo, traders, MAs, docs, they all have something "good" and fun to play with, debuffs, nice critts, nice heals.
Soldiers have TMS, may be it should be better (nano-resist boost while TMS ?), may be they need better guns ? I don't know I'm not a soldier.
Fixers have GA, the problem is it's too much difficult to get it.
Some others profs need something new (or better) to compete with the rest of us.
Nano-resist should be reworked may be.

Each prof should have something "uber".
Who cares about docs having CH if another prof, let's say soldiers or MAs, can alpha them to death ? same with traders/MP debuffs.

Some profs couldn't win against some others profs in individual duels and it's fine with me, balance between each profs is impossible and not needed, we're not playing chess.
Who cares about 1vs1 pvp ? not me, I'm a trader and I don't duel, even if I could be very good at it.
Mass pvp is a lot more fun imo, especialy with the booster pack coming.

Crying for nerfs and whining will just remove more fun from the game I think.
Nerfs and lack of content (lack of fun) are what make peoples leave AO.
Stop asking for nerfs.
Ask for improvements and content.

Just my 0.02

[_______________North]

Kromoz, about nano resist.

If you rely on nukes, like NTs, MPs and Crats do, you don't want to see Nano Resist changed from what it is at the moment. Why?

- With 1016 NR and full defence I have hard time nuking myself and if you make this even more effective you would render all nukes nearly useless in this game becuase you would never land them.

Please go and test NR before you think its effectiveness should be increased. It is working just fine.

I think I can say the same to you, get your facts right before coming to place your argument. As of this moment, your thinking about NR is not accurate, just an easy answer that many use at the moment. However, it is your opinion and you are entitled to it.

Also, there have been professions nerfed before anyone even asked to change traders or docs (other healing classes). Traders are next on the line, as it is easier to change one nano line then give a love patch for 8 other professions. It will take much more then a year to get other 8 professions, while it takes only very little effert to change one or two nano lines for those professions that have huge advantage againt most other professions in this game.

I don't mind losing to a trader or doc, but I do mind not having a chance at all. Why do you think your profession is so special that it should not get same treatment then other professions have been given in the past? This is a game with 12 professions not 1 or 2.

And ask yourself this (not to anyone particular)...

Were NTs or agents asking for their range to be reduced? Nope, and it wasn't anymore overpowering then position of heals and debuffs is at the moment.

Were NTs asking to get their stun to get nerfed? Nope, and it wasn't anymore overpowering then position of heals and debuffs is at the moment.

You should probably change your thinking more towards balance in this game then thinking only about your own professions. I don't cry if I get nerfed, if it is a balancing aspect of this game.

Traders are on the top of the food chain along with docs at the moment. You don't want this situation to change, you want more content to the game....booster pack is coming out and I would love to be able to continue playing with my profession at the moment, but it is very likely that if I do want to be viable in that expansion...I need to reroll a trader.

[Hajkster]

think most that post in this thread is really just bored

[Palmero]

100% damage and 100% heals FFS!!

[_______________North]

I agree with Tolbat , but keep the cap on maximum damage per shot at 40% of total HP.

[-kromoz-]

North : you're true, I don't have all the facts about balance in pvp.

But that's not my purpose, what I'm saying is that FC should give some love for the profs that need it.
I don't know how, cuz I don't play them, I just know about the trader things. And I don't things traders are overpowered, I think some profs are underpowered (many, but not all except traders and docs).
I agree it could be long, but not a whole year if FC handles it seriously, that's why I think it's that we should ask instead of nerfs.
When everyone cry for nerfs on the forums, FC nerfs.
If we all ask for improvements, FC could hear us, at least we can try it. I'm sure it would be better for our fun in the long run, and that's why we are here, to have fun.

Another thing, once again you're just considering 1vs1 pvp.
I already said it, let me say it again : traders (as for docs I think) are not as good in mass pvp as they are in duels.
"huge avantage" you said ... yes and no .. not at all in mass pvp.
That's exactly the opposite for soldiers (TMS, huge alpha). I could call it a "huge avantage" too, but it's fine with me.
So let's think about mass pvp too when talking of pvp balance.

About nano-resist : I don't want a general nano-resist increase, what I think is some profs could get a nano-resist boost, for example soldiers when they have TMS running (may be it's not accurate but it's just an example).

You're pointing some old nerfs (here again I don't have facts ), my point is instead of nerfing everyone else, why not un-nerf and improve others ?
NT and agents would still be weaks against drains but they would have their range back ? (roots should be balanced in this case I'm aware of it) May be not as much as before, I don't know, but something like that, once again it's just an example.

[_______________North]

Kromoz, thanks for you answer.

About thinking the 1v1 PvP instead of team PvP.

I think you are partly right and partly wrong.

I have been involved in balancing RTS games before, participating in those discussions etc. I always build my arguments from bottom-up, not the other way around. Why? Because that way you will not miss an aspect that easily. In RTS you have the same issue, 1v1s vs Teams, and as avid AOE series player, I can tell that your argument hold true to two aspecsts:

1. There always were civilizations with better team abilities then others

2. There always were civilizations with better 1v1 abilities then others.

However, there never was a civilization that could completely own other civilization, you always had a chance. Difference between MMORPG and RTSs is that in RTS individual skill play more important role tho.

PvP team is not that different then duels, the diffrence comes with number of individuals involved. The balance of team PvP in my opinion is the final stage when it comes to balancing A profession...and in this area you would have to start looking at those nanos that have team and/or AOE effects. You should not compare 1v1 abilities at this stage because if they are used in PvP team environment they should be considered duels, as in a principle you are still fighting 1v1 albeit you might be concentrating your attack as a team against one particular target. The balance therefore would be the same issue then in duels...and don't see why they should be any different.

What you should look instead is those nanos that have area effect or can be used to improve team abilities. NTs area blinds and area damage is a good example of these along with Trader's team wrangles.

Team PvP at the end of the day is a fight between many individual targets, balance might change a lot depending on what professions are currently present in your team or if you have those professions that have good team buffs/auras or area effect nanos that disable multiple enemies at once.

Naturally, traders, docs and NTs are prime targets in most teams as they do have nice team based abilties...trader on the other hand usually does focus his battle on either doc or an NT. While most would consider trader as the prime threat in any team...not because your team or area abilties tho, but because of your 1v1 ability to make most other professions completely useless.

As a last note, I don't see real problems in team based PvP at the moment. There are too many variables to look at, as any team can br formed to consist completely different number of different professions. the best way to look at team PvP balance is to look at team buffing abilities, area effect nanos rather then invidual skills that are 1v1.

...getting late hope you get what I am trying to say

[loca]

half mongo..and half soldier MK shilds in pvp 2

its fair

[Leamartini]

NERF !

Nerf Everybody ! Force everyone to use a Solar Pistol, Startup Nanos & noob First Aids & Treatment Labs ! And make ALL skills dark blue (soldier would be overpowered with green pistol skill) ! Oh and dont forget to remove lvling system...it's way too much overpowering to be able to have more lvls than others ! Then AO will be 100% balanced

[________Garzu-perman]

Originally posted by North
I agree with Tolbat , but keep the cap on maximum damage per shot at 40% of total HP.

Yes, but the same should apply to healing...