General questions about new nanos...

[Abalz]

We wouldn't make the nano in the first place if we didn't feel that it would be useful and at the very least a decent addition to any given professions nano listing.

LOOOOLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WOW. You obvisouly don't see many NT nanos cross your desk for approval.

[Kain97]

Yes, certain professions have an easier time using nanos with higher requirements because they have a strength at nano casting that other professions might not have. That is part and parcel of having a deep, flexible and quite open ended skill system like we do in AO.

What I will tell you about the nanos is the same for each profession, as the same approach to each is applied. The new nanos are intended to be difficult to cast, think I have covered that now, and yes, that also means that as above, its not 'as hard' for some professions as it is for others due to the inherent bias towards nano abilities in some professions.

I don't see choice as a bad thing. People regularly complain about 'cookie cutter' set-ups so I don't think you should be surprised to see us add true options to the high end gameplay that can mean people can make different, and viable, builds in very different ways for different roles.

So yes Fixers and Shades probably do indeed have to sacrifice more then an NT or an MP to use the new nanos as nano skills are not the focus of their abilities in the way they are for NTs or MPs.

Obviously cut out what I don't want to reply to - just too lazy to put everything in it's own [quote] box. ;p

The nanos are intended to be difficult to cast, eh? So why not make them difficult for *everyone*? Yes, NT's or MP's have higher nanoskills than a fixer or a shade, that's part and parcel of those profs. Why not scale the nano reqs higher so everyone who chooses to use them has to make the same choices? That's what I don't understand. On one hand you're saying you approached each set of nanos the same way for every prof, and that they were intended to be difficult to cast. On the other, you're saying that just because NT's and MP's are nanocasting profs, they basically get a free ticket. (Spending ip to raise a green skill for a single nano, as in the case of NT's, is far, far less of a sacrifice than expecting fixers to gimp their offense to cast any of these nanos. It's not even close.)

I can understand options. But you've said yourself - everyone figures out the 'best' way, and it becomes a cookie cutter setup. Making fixers nerf themselves for little offense and incredible defense/healing, at least imo - isn't palatable.

My idea of real options? If you made a sweet evade debuff (500? 750?) that a) actually lands relatively easy; and b) required us to run around with combined scouts and a fully defensive/nanoskills oriented setup to cast, as long as it was good enough to balance out with the full CSS/CC, max-AR, offensively oriented - type fixers, that would be a true option.

As it is, as a fixer, getting these 4 nanos is almost like not getting anything at all.

[tehacidbaron]

Silirrion, you are expecting of some people to trade in a gold bar for a turd with golden sprinkles.

I am against cookie cutter setups but make to sacrifice worth it.
People in mmo's are hooked on min-maxing if you don't even offer up to par solutions it's throwing pearls for the swines. which for some professions is easier then the other.

I as engineer wouldn't mind trading in all my personal damage gear with pistols IF you atleast considerd making it viable what you do at this stage isn't, you fixated to much on numbers and base it on 'the perfect world' while ignoring the rather how it actully works in this game, starting to sound as a tape recorder here.....


Same approach is not applied, that is a lie.

[Shrubberyman]

...

You might not know it, but many NTs already use + Nanoskills gear in their set up, just because it's basically everything for us together with nanopool. We have nothing, or not that much to swap as we already use Scout/DB, weapon with + nanoskills, Alb nano enhancer, alapaa pad, Nano Doctorate, ConC etc, etc.
We are made especially for that, cast nanos. What do you expect FC to do? Make these new layers or 3% better shelter with 3k, no wait, 3,4k, no no, wait, 3,8k requirements? Cmon... what do you expect a prof that already favors nanoskills to sacrifice to have better nanoskills?????

[Ithnag]

Silirrion, your sound math, after seeing the requs per profession, would get a D-, did the devs only made a "treshold" of what would be an average "high reqs" and aplied that with some minor varainces to some professions, or they forgot thet some professions have naturally -higher- ninoskills than others, and tons of usefull gear that buff nanoskills too?.

Do that math factor in a time stop power for people to be able of swapping equipment, or are all supposed to go arouns in arithmetic and with pocket MP and Trader?.

Did you even consider that having a couple professions that can simply go about an use those nanos as of now with very minor changes at all in their setup, while others need to be born again, or require a full equipment swap is competely screwed up?.

[Kain97]

You might not know it, but many NTs already use + Nanoskills gear in their set up, just because it's basically everything for us together with nanopool. We have nothing, or not that much to swap as we already use Scout/DB, weapon with + nanoskills, Alb nano enhancer, alapaa pad, Nano Doctorate, ConC etc, etc.
We are made especially for that, cast nanos. What do you expect FC to do? Make these new layers or 3% better shelter with 3k, no wait, 3,4k, no no, wait, 3,8k requirements? Cmon... what do you expect a prof that already favors nanoskills to sacrifice to have better nanoskills?????

Wow, I would have never guessed! My point was that if it's fair and reasonable to require fixers or shades to have maxed skills, full research, maxed conc, 300 symbs, etc.... to have any shot at casting our nanos, it shouldn't be that hard to go ok - nt has maxed 'main' nanoskills (MM is to a fixer what MC is to an NT - always maxed), conc, nd, 300 symbs, etc... so we'll give em..... say.... 2.2k 'main' nanoskill reqs (like MC, f.ex) and maybe 1.9k 'secondary' nanoskill reqs. That way mr noobie in a medsuit and storebought 125 imps won't be castin it at 220 without even trying to max skills.

Get it now? You need to be a top-level fixer to have any hope of selfing these nanos. (And yes, I understand we're being forced to team in pvp, etc.. and I should get used to the idea that I could rely on a MP or trader, but if I bother with these nanos, yes, I will make the sacrifice and self them, because I honestly don't want to have to depend on another. Kinda the whole point of rolling a toon that is purportedly a good soloer. ;p) I don't see why you as an NT shouldn't have to be equally well equipped, and/or reliant on another prof.

[Ithnag]

You might not know it, but many NTs already use + Nanoskills gear in their set up, just because it's basically everything for us together with nanopool. We have nothing, or not that much to swap as we already use Scout/DB, weapon with + nanoskills, Alb nano enhancer, alapaa pad, Nano Doctorate, ConC etc, etc.
We are made especially for that, cast nanos. What do you expect FC to do? Make these new layers or 3% better shelter with 3k, no wait, 3,4k, no no, wait, 3,8k requirements? Cmon... what do you expect a prof that already favors nanoskills to sacrifice to have better nanoskills?????

Do you need to invest IP, get CM, wrangle and equip phulaks to cast your new nanos?

[Shrubberyman]

I don't see why you as an NT shouldn't have to be equally well equipped, and/or reliant on another prof.

Sure, so I guess you should be as reliant on other prof and as well equiped as me to put AND use your weapons? We're, together with MPs, the (supposedly) best nano users with a prof based entirely on nanos (won't even start talking about the fact our SL/Ai stuff is all level locked). I ain't whining cause I can't equip a friggin Dshark, it's not what i'm supposed to be able to do. But I do expect to be able to cast my nanos without a major hassle.

Do you need to invest IP, get CM, wrangle and equip phulaks to cast your new nanos?

Some IPs will be needed cause most of us have reseted BM/MM.
Phulaks I wish I would need, it would mean I don't need the damn cyberdeck and could use some weapons in its stead, I'm sure the whole community would love that, wouldn't it?
CM and wrangle? I wish I needed them, I would be curious to see what nearlly 3kish requiring nanos would do...

It's funny to see how easy it is for some to switch from "lessen our new nanos reqs" to the "zomg, NTs again, burn the witch, nerf, lol, creds plz!!111!!"

PS : I am max skill, max research, ConC10, ND10, ql 300 symbs, all endgame phat from all pfs. I just find it stupid how rather than keep arguing for their prof whiners prefers to point fingers and moan on what other profs got... If at least it was overpowered, I could perhaps see a point, but there...

[Ithnag]

Sure, so I guess you should be as reliant on other prof and as well equiped as me to put AND use your weapons? We're, together with MPs, the (supposedly) best nano users with a prof based entirely on nanos (won't even start talking about the fact our SL/Ai stuff is all level locked). I ain't whining cause I can't equip a friggin Dshark, it's not what i'm supposed to be able to do. But I do expect to be able to cast my nanos without a major hassle.




Some IPs will be needed cause most of us have reseted BM/MM.
Phulaks I wish I would need, it would mean I don't need the damn cyberdeck and could use some weapons in its stead, I'm sure the whole community would love that, wouldn't it?
CM and wrangle? I wish I needed them, I would be curious to see what nearlly 3kish requiring nanos would do...

It's funny to see how easy it is for some to switch from "lessen our new nanos reqs" to the "zomg, NTs again, burn the witch, nerf, lol, creds plz!!111!!"

PS : I am max skill, max research, ConC10, ND10, ql 300 symbs, all endgame phat from all pfs. I just find it stupid how rather than keep arguing for their prof whiners prefers to point fingers and moan on what other profs got... If at least it was overpowered, I could perhaps see a point, but there...

the very point it's that Sil states that the nanos are intended to be hard to cast, really hard, but for some, they are not, and for others they are near to imposible, so they would need to be tunned to a point where all have to make a proportional effort to cast them, NT's have ways to increase their Nanoskills beyond what they have now in their regular setup, as well as other professions, so that should be taken into account, and either lower the requs for all to be on par to the "effort" needed by nano profs to cast theirs, or increased for those that can easily cast them.

Why NT's?, well cause you were the one saying you already used nanobuffing armor and hud items, implying that there wasn't much more for you to buff into, wich is not true.

[Kain97]

Sure, so I guess you should be as reliant on other prof and as well equiped as me to put AND use your weapons? We're, together with MPs, the (supposedly) best nano users with a prof based entirely on nanos (won't even start talking about the fact our SL/Ai stuff is all level locked). I ain't whining cause I can't equip a friggin Dshark, it's not what i'm supposed to be able to do. But I do expect to be able to cast my nanos without a major hassle.




Some IPs will be needed cause most of us have reseted BM/MM.
Phulaks I wish I would need, it would mean I don't need the damn cyberdeck and could use some weapons in its stead, I'm sure the whole community would love that, wouldn't it?
CM and wrangle? I wish I needed them, I would be curious to see what nearlly 3kish requiring nanos would do...

It's funny to see how easy it is for some to switch from "lessen our new nanos reqs" to the "zomg, NTs again, burn the witch, nerf, lol, creds plz!!111!!"

PS : I am max skill, max research, ConC10, ND10, ql 300 symbs, all endgame phat from all pfs. I just find it stupid how rather than keep arguing for their prof whiners prefers to point fingers and moan on what other profs got... If at least it was overpowered, I could perhaps see a point, but there...

You still don't get it. I've already said that if I choose to use these nanos, I will make the sacrifice in order to self them. My issue isn't that you got new stuff, woo for new stuff for everyone!

My issue is that for a fixer to self these nanos, we'll basically have to have a pretty damned good equip, and still having to make pretty big sacrifices. For an nt to self them? No need to be uber. No need to even come close to it. I'm fine with the fact that there really isn't anything you *can* sacrifice, because you're all about nanoskills.
However, imo, the reqs should be raised accordingly so a 201 nt in a medsuit can't instantly self em just because they poured ip into the skills. You tell me, what kind of nanoskills can you as an NT with ubar equip get? Knock maybe 200-250 points off your max and there's where your reqs should be. Doesn't that sound more fair than just handing out nanos that are castable by any 201 semi-gimp nt?

I'd love to get 50-75-ish points get knocked off our in-combat nanos. That would still require a pretty decent equip.

[Shrubberyman]

Why NT's?, well cause you were the one saying you already used nanobuffing armor and hud items, implying that there wasn't much more for you to buff into, wich is not true.

It was damn time FC remembered that nano profs, NT among other, are supposed to be the "Champion of Nano Combat". That's what our profs are based upon, and where we are supposed to excel.
Be serious a minute, don't tell me you're really having wet dreams thinking that FC could like change with +1000 the reqs of these new nanos just to calm the torchwielding crowd of whiners out there.
Sil' did state that the new nanos would be hard to cast for many, and way easier for others. It's intended. Nano prof having an easier time to cast nanos than none-nano prof... Imagine that... It's weird, but there seems to be some kind of logic here...

@kain97... You will notice I haven't been saying that you were wrong and fixers would have it like a walk in the park. I just don't see how militating to try and nerf/screw another prof is gonna help yours. Militate for reqs lowering, don't give into the witch hunt some well-known "nerf Nt" nazis have been hoping to launch since LE release...

[cacat]

It was damn time FC remembered that nano profs, NT among other, are supposed to be the "Champion of Nano Combat". That's what our profs are based upon, and where we are supposed to excel.
Be serious a minute, don't tell me you're really having wet dreams thinking that FC could like change with +1000 the reqs of these new nanos just to calm the torchwielding crowd of whiners out there.
Sil' did state that the new nanos would be hard to cast for many, and way easier for others. It's intended. Nano prof having an easier time to cast nanos than none-nano prof... Imagine that... It's weird, but there seems to be some kind of logic here...

@kain97... You will notice I haven't been saying that you were wrong and fixers would have it like a walk in the park. I just don't see how militating to try and nerf/screw another prof is gonna help yours. Militate for reqs lowering, don't give into the witch hunt some well-known "nerf Nt" nazis have been hoping to launch since LE release...

Nerf NTs tbh.

PS <3 noim

[Shrubberyman]

<3
Wub.

[djedj1]

I still fail to understand why you lower the reqs of all advi morphs (by 1 point) and give such high reqs to those new nanos.

[Kain97]

@kain97... You will notice I haven't been saying that you were wrong and fixers would have it like a walk in the park. I just don't see how militating to try and nerf/screw another prof is gonna help yours. Militate for reqs lowering, don't give into the witch hunt some well-known "nerf Nt" nazis have been hoping to launch since LE release...

Not asking for a nerf, or to try to screw nt's or anyone else. However, pointing out the exceptionally large imbalance shows how ridiculous some of these reqs are, imo.

I would much rather see some of the more outlandish reqs get lowered. After all, not everyone has the means to get 300 symbs. Honestly I don't get any of what FC has done since the release of LE. First we get OFAB, so that pvp could appeal to a larger group and not just the hardcore, full ai armor, min/max group. Great.

Then we get these nanos, that pretty well require 300 symbs at the very least, for most profs. Dunno about you, but how is a casual player supposed to get to enough zods raids to realistically be able to get everything they need with the bottleneck in pande? How is a casual player supposed to be able to afford to buy them? Last I checked the 300 arty right arm was going for nearly a billion creds. So once again you kinda close off pvp to the casual player.

Just seems like FC has been makin this stuff up as it goes along.

[Koizumi]

blablablasomethingsomethingblablabla

Your reasoning is a /fail

[Ithnag]

[QUOTE=Shrubberyman;4973380]stuff[QUOTE]

Please, read what i actually post instead of what you have on your mind, don't be paranoid, making nanos equally hard to cast for all is not a call for nerf any profession, is a call for making them to reflect what Sil claims that was the intention.

If you can still swap equipment, get Mochams and wrangle, and invest IP (considering the rest have to do that, and get a different armor than what they use, and perk coNC wich they don't use) then the new "very difficult to cast", "sacrifice demanding" nanos should take all or some of those extra elements into consideration, or make the rest of the nanos proportionally difficult to cast compared to yours, and a couple others.

[Loucretia]

.........I think can and will use these nanos even if there are no further changes to them (and there might be) because when I think people stand back and look at them they will realise that not only can it be done, it will be worth it for some people to make the effort to use these nanos.

That is exactly how they are intended......

As these nanos stand at the moment i think it would be more accurate to say

"it will be worth it for some profs to use these nanos as they get to do so without much difficulty"

[Theonora]

It’s a choice you have to make on an individual level for your character. The designers took a great deal of care to ensure that the math was correct and all the nanos can be cast by the relevant profession. There is nothing ‘impossible’ about the requirements, but there is a choice for you to make, and yes, you might even have to sacrifice something else to be able to use them.

That's understandable, and for my part....well, I asked for a way to make my pistol damage types match. I may have done a spit-take at my monitor at how I got what I asked for, but yeah....

So, here's the other give and take on that. If this is going to be one of those buffs I permanently have to swap equipment for, make it a long enough duration for it to be worth it. I'm already giving up low AR and some of my evades to cast them. I already have to recast morphs in the middle of long raids (always fun to be caught morphless in a bad spot in pande). Make the duration last long enough that I don't have to kindly ask half the mobs in SL to please give me a second so I can swap half my equipment around to recast a damage buff in the middle of a mission/raid. :P Teammates are so understanding when that happens as it is, with morphs I can self cast but that take forever to do so.

Theo

[Ober]

Sure, so I guess you should be as reliant on other prof and as well equiped as me to put AND use your weapons? We're, together with MPs, the (supposedly) best nano users with a prof based entirely on nanos (won't even start talking about the fact our SL/Ai stuff is all level locked). I ain't whining cause I can't equip a friggin Dshark, it's not what i'm supposed to be able to do. But I do expect to be able to cast my nanos without a major hassle.

Problem is, dshark isn't Profession == Nanotechnician.

Fixer (ie) nanos are Profession == Fixer

And I bet you love fixers unperking NR1-2, then you won't have to nr debuff them before you kill them in 2-3x nukes..