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Thread: General questions about new nanos...

  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Loul View Post
    There is a huge difference between adding new nanos in an expansion like SL, and adding them in some "content upgrade".

    Most of the people that will be using these nanos will be 220. They dont have any levels to go grind, they dont (mostly) have loads of uber phats to go camp, they are by and large at or close to endgame.

    If the intention is to avoid people using NR, its really quite simple to work out what are reasonable reqs.

    While there may be new buffing items available down the line, you cant expect people to say "oh great new nanos lets stick em in the bank for a few months until the other content catches up".

    In addition, people dont want to radically change their setup everytime you introduce some new content, especially as FC are so retentive about IPRs.

    And If you are going to give them ridiculous requirements, then make them ridiculous for every prof, not almost impossible for some and doable unbuffed for others.

    Finally, if you want to make the nanos very hard to cast, they need to be worth casting.
    Quoted For Truth aka QFT

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Loul View Post
    And If you are going to give them ridiculous requirements, then make them ridiculous for every prof, not almost impossible for some and doable unbuffed for others.

    Finally, if you want to make the nanos very hard to cast, they need to be worth casting.
    Bump.

  3. #83
    Silirrion, if the idea is that this new nanos are hard to cast, do it so for all, having Shade's nano with higher requst than NT is so ridiculous that results insulting, when considering that the team doing this are involved deeply witht he game mechanics.

    Some profesions can cast their upcoming nanos as of now, with little to no effort, and some others need 300 symbs+ CM+wrangle+buffing items and CoNC fully perked, that is not logic nor rational.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Mmba View Post
    i believe thats where we come in. the devs talk to us alot, and its our job to make sure that we understand the player's wants/needs to relate them back to the devs.

    whether or not either side listens to us is a different story tho
    IMO, thats where you should go away. All of these layers of communication is part of the problem.. I want direct Abalz <-> Developer chat.. not Abalz <-> Proffessional OR Trash can -> Whoever leads professional program now (Famine?) OR Trash can -> Dev OR Trash can.

    Note the sections of that chain, that likely don't know anything about playing my profession, at my level etcc.

    Edit: "you" meaning, professional program of course, not You-you
    Last edited by Abalz; Nov 20th, 2007 at 19:06:50.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silirrion View Post
    We wouldn't make the nano in the first place if we didn't feel that it would be useful and at the very least a decent addition to any given professions nano listing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Abalz
    LOL

  5. #85
    For once I agree with Abalz. Kind of. I think the professionals program is beneficial but there is far too much variation in things like wishlists. That had a major influence on content in 17.7 and I think is the fundamental reason why there is massively varying usefulness of the new nanos.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Mamman View Post
    I can see Sils point and it doesn't really matter if I agree with it or not I guess, but my question is:

    Why isn't the difference between 'in combat' and 'buff before combat' nanos recognized at all? If great minds have done great amount of thinking like you said Sil, surely this must've crossed their minds. All the players saw this instantly and you also mentioned our understanding of the game is nothing compared to the devs.

    Enlighten us.
    That is part of the point of the nanos, these aren't just designed to be hard when buffing. They are designed to be a hard to use in combat as well. It would be rather pointless to lower the requirements for the 'in combat' nanos to the point where you didn't need to make any sacrifices or consider your set-up to utilize them.

    It's of course easier for 'long term' buffs as you can swap stuff in and out to not have to sacrifice the other advantages of your set up, and get the best of both worlds.

    So the requirements for the 'in combat' nanos were very much considered and are intended to make people make choices and not have everything all of the time. The math behind them is sound and the requirements are consistent across the professions in relation to the nano budgets in and off themselves. Given that those budgets aren't 'equal' for all professions then it inherently means that some professions will not have it as 'hard' as others. Given that the different professions nano abilities and items aren't even to begin with means that the relative difficulty of equipping will not always be 'even'.
    Craig 'Silirrion' Morrison
    Old Timer

  7. #87
    Wile the math maybe sound your not taking in the usefulness of the nanos themselves. <I'm an engie ok> engies sl pet reflect is the exact same as the rk but 2x skill requirements. Where is the benifit of that considering it changing my setup all around will not make the pet last longer nor hold agg better. The cost to benifit of these nanos on a while is not high enough for most players to use them and there buy are just a waste of time and money to fc, let alone the lost $ from players leaving due to being fedup with being ignored.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Acetylcholin View Post
    Wile the math maybe sound your not taking in the usefulness of the nanos themselves. <I'm an engie ok> engies sl pet reflect is the exact same as the rk but 2x skill requirements. Where is the benifit of that considering it changing my setup all around will not make the pet last longer nor hold agg better. The cost to benifit of these nanos on a while is not high enough for most players to use them and there buy are just a waste of time and money to fc, let alone the lost $ from players leaving due to being fedup with being ignored.
    I think I have covered why the requirements are high already.

    Whether or not you personally consider the benefit of any given nano (or any other item for that manner) to be 'worth it' is up to you, and a play choice for you to make for your characters. We wouldn't make the nano in the first place if we didn't feel that it would be useful and at the very least a decent addition to any given professions nano listing.
    Craig 'Silirrion' Morrison
    Old Timer

  9. #89
    Retired Doc Professional
    Quote Originally Posted by Abalz View Post
    IMO, thats where you should go away. All of these layers of communication is part of the problem.. I want direct Abalz <-> Developer chat.. not Abalz <-> Proffessional OR Trash can -> Whoever leads professional program now (Famine?) OR Trash can -> Dev OR Trash can.

    Note the sections of that chain, that likely don't know anything about playing my profession, at my level etcc.

    Edit: "you" meaning, professional program of course, not You-you
    in a perfect world, you are correct. however, there is no way that you can realistically think that the devs can go troll themselves and take care of the needs of all the people.

    first of all, even if they had the time to read all the feedback and post back to you about it, it would take precious time that would delay patches. fc isnt paying their devs to interact with customers... thats where the professionals, (aka "free PR" ) come in.

    secondly, there is only so much that a small group of devs could possibly know about professions, as it relates to problems, needs, and balance. its just so much easier and beneficial for everybody to have a select group of people who truely are "professional" in their field to collect all of the random ideas mixed in with flames and useless chatter to present to the right people.
    Last edited by Mmba; Nov 20th, 2007 at 20:55:34.
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  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Silirrion View Post
    So the requirements for the 'in combat' nanos were very much considered and are intended to make people make choices and not have everything all of the time. The math behind them is sound and the requirements are consistent across the professions in relation to the nano budgets in and off themselves. Given that those budgets aren't 'equal' for all professions then it inherently means that some professions will not have it as 'hard' as others. Given that the different professions nano abilities and items aren't even to begin with means that the relative difficulty of equipping will not always be 'even'.
    Sil,MAs can't cast their nanos without resorting to full arithmetic armor,much like engis for the pvp intended nanos.
    Advys can use these nanos,but the vengeance step goes from 800ish to 1240ish.
    A 400 point jump in an otherwise useless skill for us.
    I can cast the nano,but it requires:

    A phulak(+90 MC)
    a Com relay(+30 nano)
    a nano enhancer from albatraum(+25 nano)
    a pair of dustbrigade boots(+25 nano)
    a pair of dustbrigade gloves(+30 to nano)
    a composite mochams nano from an MP(+120 to nano)
    a wrangle from a trader and i can cast it(ofcourse,i will probably have more then i need to if i find a wrangle,so less item swapping,if i don't search for a trader i will have to swap 2-3 armor pieces) :>

    It is not like anything as bad as MAs have to use,but its still not reasonable.

    Please i would like to see the logic behind this req.
    Quote Originally Posted by Klod View Post
    From one troll to another. Cut the crap, Blackie. Or just roll a MP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Escritores View Post
    And right there this thread turned emo...
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  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Silirrion View Post
    Given that the different professions nano abilities and items aren't even to begin with means that the relative difficulty of equipping will not always be 'even'.
    "not always even" isnt very fitting term, if you give uncastable nanos for proffesions that already have trouble with casting old stuff (Engineers), and perfectly castable nanos for proffesions that never had any sign of that problem to begin with. (NTs, MPs) . And i hardly believe in anything you say about "great deal of work and thinking" in process of making those nanos, if Engineer community for years sends feedback about such problems , yet new nanos on test are 100-150 harder to cast, not to mention they are useless.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by IHaveHugeNick View Post
    ...if you give uncastable nanos...
    None of the nanos in 17.7 are uncastable in any way, shape or form

    not to mention they are useless.
    No one is going to force you to use them, if you don't feel any given nano is 'worth it' then you don't have to get it, let alone use it. These nanos like all other equipment in the game are options available to you if you want to pursue them and use them.
    Craig 'Silirrion' Morrison
    Old Timer

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Silirrion View Post
    I think I have covered why the requirements are high already.

    Whether or not you personally consider the benefit of any given nano (or any other item for that manner) to be 'worth it' is up to you, and a play choice for you to make for your characters. We wouldn't make the nano in the first place if we didn't feel that it would be useful and at the very least a decent addition to any given professions nano listing.
    'blinks' looks again 'blinks' looks again 'slams the door'...goodbye lucy!

    To bad all the logic applied and thought out behind the screens it might hold ground for the other professions but i know it doesn't for the engineer profession.

    But i guess 'haha, you're an engineer!' can be applied.

    If you're wondering what i'm on about first the nanos given aren't a decent addition and second i've yet to see one NR perked engineer that has the option of casting his pets even with swapping to other gear what most if not all, sadly we'll be called wrong, false and perhaps even liars.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Silirrion View Post
    None of the nanos in 17.7 are uncastable in any way, shape or form
    Well for some Silirrion, it means an entire setup change(having to resort to using different armor, reducing their effective performance combat wise). I can understand some changes taking place, as a few changes in HUD items/a few pieces here and there, but having a pocket MP/Trader and running around in Arithmetic armor doesn't really qualify as much as being useful when you have to sacrifice more than whats sane to use them as some have to.

    It brings Engis down to having almost NO Offense except for their pets, simply cause they aren't able to cast them, and thats even if pet pathing will allow them to get there.
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  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Silirrion View Post
    None of the nanos in 17.7 are uncastable in any way, shape or form
    Engineer nanos are relatively uncastable in all setups that 95% of our community is using. Without NR1.

  16. #96
    Sil, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you failed at a decent nano when the whole of the engineering comunity is not happy with them, including our profs. Your still not getting that cost to beifit thing. If the sl reflect was 35 to 45% it would be worth it, but its the exact same thing we've had since game start but an sl tag added and skill requirements doubled.

    So what your saying is its completly ok for 2x cost for exact same thing but an extra tag on it?

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Koizumi View Post
    qft...

    Well, afair, the remodulator proc was 100% 'on hit'...i wonder how an engi in full arith gonna hit any1, especially evade profs with that lmao.
    Check the attack and def skills on the remodulator.

    ...that and procs trigger even on a miss, I can't tell you how many times I've been stunned when a brawl misses me :P

    Personally I love the remodulator, sure it doesn't help me get titles or whatever, but it's fun to call targets and have everyone around me land everything because the target's evades are screwed
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  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Spartanx View Post
    Well for some Silirrion, it means an entire setup change(having to resort to using different armor, reducing their effective performance combat wise). I can understand some changes taking place, as a few changes in HUD items/a few pieces here and there, but having a pocket MP/Trader and running around in Arithmetic armor doesn't really qualify as much as being useful when you have to sacrifice more than whats sane to use them as some have to.

    It brings Engis down to having almost NO Offense except for their pets, simply cause they aren't able to cast them, and thats even if pet pathing will allow them to get there.
    Quote Originally Posted by IHaveHugeNick View Post
    Engineer nanos are relatively uncastable in all setups that 95% of our community is using. Without NR1.
    These are the exact reasons we should get another full IPR since most of the active* players were coaxed into using theirs early since there would be a 'limited window' when they could be used that was later transformed into an infinite window.

    *Note I say 'active' players since FC's excuse has been that a majority of characters haven't used their full IPR yet. Funny how they neglect to consider inactive accounts and useless bank mules are where that 'majority' they referred to comes from.
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  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow_Slave View Post
    *Note I say 'active' players since FC's excuse has been that a majority of characters haven't used their full IPR yet. Funny how they neglect to consider inactive accounts and useless bank mules are where that 'majority' they referred to comes from.
    Not true, whenever we scan the data from the databases I always have the database guys only include live accounts in the data. So we make sure that we look at it from the point of view of the players still active and playing. We also poll the numbers for accounts active in the last three / six / nine months etc when we do it to see if those who have canceled have had any effect on the numbers. We have also in the past done it with just the canceled people to see if a lack of IPR points might be a reason for cancellation (and there was no indication of that all when we did).

    We also cross reference by level and profession so that we don't catch too many mules and alts etc.

    Not the subject for discussion here though so please keep the thread on topic
    Craig 'Silirrion' Morrison
    Old Timer

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Mmba View Post
    first of all, even if they had the time to read all the feedback and post back to you about it, it would take precious time that would delay patches. fc isnt paying their devs to interact with customers... thats where the professionals, (aka "free PR" ) come in.
    secondly, there is only so much that a small group of devs could possibly know about professions, as it relates to problems, needs, and balance. its just so much easier and beneficial for everybody to have a select group of people who truely are "professional" in their field to collect all of the random ideas mixed in with flames and useless chatter to present to the right people.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silirrion View Post
    I can assure you that the people who made these items understand the game far better, in more depth and with greater experience then the vast majority of you who are so quick to flame them.
    Ahem? HOW can they understand us if they dun have any idea about our prolems?
    And dont even try to tell me that they can have even a sightest glimpse of how some players feel through you prof peeps (no offence to ya)...

    Quote Originally Posted by Silirrion View Post
    None of the nanos in 17.7 are uncastable in any way, shape or form
    Reply:
    Quote Originally Posted by kuznechik View Post
    I guess MAs can ask mobs nicely to wait till MA swap to full arith to cast team heal and run to Borealis to get trader buff.
    Yep...lol..
    Quote Originally Posted by Silirrion View Post
    No one is going to force you to use them, if you don't feel any given nano is 'worth it' then you don't have to get it, let alone use it. These nanos like all other equipment in the game are options available to you if you want to pursue them and use them.
    Yeppp...they majority (if not whole) of paying community just got kicked in the butt...and they're even paying for it!! suckers lmao ;D;D;D;;..;.....er...w8..im a paying customer aswell...damnit...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quitter123 View Post
    How about this new nano for enfs, it takes random amount of nanoskills and nano to cast, when landed on random opponent it debuffs random weaponskill by random amount for an unspecified length of time.

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