Why have a PvP-oriented pack when PvP itself is utterly broken?

[___________AngryCrat]

What is this sense in this? Let me first say, I'd love to see AO be a real game that players can participate meaningfully, through land ownership/control.

But the fact is, how can you expect the booster pack expansion to matter to most people when PvP mechanics in AO are totally screw up, and are oriented toward PvM?

I avoid PvP in AO and have resigned myself to this because there's no balance at all. Some professions are uber at PvP, others are purely victims. Certain items in the game are utterly powerful in PvP, and if you don't have them, you're just fodder.

Frankly, PvP should just be restricted to the arenas until it actually works in a viable way for the vast majority of players, and all professions. 25% zones are empty except for mission fly-over because of this-- and who likes getting nuked in the back when fighting a MOB and you're at 10% health?

So there are really two issues that need to be solved:

#1 Fix PvP mechanics and make it work viably and reasonably for most players. This will include changing the level limits to something fair.

#2 Make the PvP fight about something that people WANT that's new and largely separate from the MOB-bash game. Controlling a piece of land for its own sake in the middle of nowhere will be largely pointless. There needs to be a whole new economy of items or powers that players will have to fight over to make land control matter, and especially to high-level players. And this will also leave the MOB-bash game alone for those who just want to do that.

So why should I the customer buy the booster pack unless these two things are taken care of?

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Brazil1985
Frankly, PvP should just be restricted to the arenas until it actually works in a viable way for the vast majority of players, and all professions. 25% zones are empty except for mission fly-over because of this-- and who likes getting nuked in the back when fighting a MOB and you're at 10% health?

Not to support the Ganker Mentality, but this is one of my favorite quotes:

"Hell boy! You shot him in the back!"
"Well... his back was to me."
-- Louis Gosset Jr. and Anthony Edwards, El Diablo

But back on track, there is the ability to setup personal towers as well. Along with whatever else they cram into the Booster Pack (ie: new graphics and audio). There is a PvP focus, sure. But that's not the only thing in them. I'll imagine future booster packs will be similiar. Having more than 1 feature in them, so they appeal to more than one type of player.

[waveslayer]

I would love to see more PvP...or to be more specific- groups fighting groups.One of the reason some professions get owned is because they are setup to be support more then frontline infantry,IMO.

But disclaimer first ..I am playing AO because I like it alot but I have to bring up one game as an example of what can be done to help PvP out and that game is DAoC(once again my choice is AO)...DAoC has a really neat system of points ,and extra abilities and even web pages with stats and such to help PvP out...It would really be nice to see AO come up with something along these lines......as I see PvP now its just twinks telling lies to newbies or to players they know they will defeat, to get them into the arena, so the can run around with thier little title .

[_Bonk_]

Well many people say that pvp is really broken in AO. What games have good pvp and why and why does it suck so much in AO?

I really hope they do more than just release the booster and expect pvp to be magically fixed. I just dont think its that easy and I hope that fixing pvp before the booster is out is their number one priority. Things like silly hats and minor things should be put on the back burner.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Bonk
Well many people say that pvp is really broken in AO. What games have good pvp and why and why does it suck so much in AO?

I really hope they do more than just release the booster and expect pvp to be magically fixed. I just dont think its that easy and I hope that fixing pvp before the booster is out is their number one priority. Things like silly hats and minor things should be put on the back burner.

Most the complaints I've seen about PvP usually have 1 thing in common:

• Solo PvP

And I'm sorry to say this but...I wouldn't want to take part in any PvP system where everyone was equal. Cause then Team PvP would come down to simple numbers. Here's a simple truth about fighting:

In any One on One fight if both combatants have an equal chance to win, both of them screwed up in taking the fight

[Bionitrous]

The biggest problem with PvP in this game. The majority of Nerfs and 'balance' changes. Most of the hatred developed by non-Pvp'ers towards FunCom comes from one source.

2 people standing in a boxing ring shooting guns at each other's faces.

PvP was never broken. Not even at launch. What was broken was the fanbase that insisted that one guy fighting one other guy had any meaning.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Bionitrous
The biggest problem with PvP in this game. The majority of Nerfs and 'balance' changes. Most of the hatred developed by non-Pvp'ers towards FunCom comes from one source.

2 people standing in a boxing ring shooting guns at each other's faces.

PvP was never broken. Not even at launch. What was broken was the fanbase that insisted that one guy fighting one other guy had any meaning.

Ack!
Ackackackack!!

Bionitrous and I agree on something! Now I know this has to be one of the Signs of Apocalype

[____________Intrepid]

I got a question now.

Why would any engie in their right mind by the booster??

Thanks this post just helped me make up my mind not buying for sure

[Bionitrous]

Personal towers.

Tradeskill towers.

[______________Rogoff]

Originally posted by Kuroshio

And I'm sorry to say this but...I wouldn't want to take part in any PvP system where everyone was equal. Cause then Team PvP would come down to simple numbers. Here's a simple truth about fighting:

In any One on One fight if both combatants have an equal chance to win, both of them screwed up in taking the fight

I think you're talking about the 'Rock,Paper,Scissors" concept. In solo PvP, RPS fights have one of 4 outcomes:

1) You are jumped and destroyed quickly.
2) You are jumped and manage to escape.
3) You jump someone and destroy them instantly.
4) You jump someone and they get away.

You never actually FIGHT someone in RPS, you either kill them or run from them.

Team PvP is no easier to balance. People in the team generally know what the high-priority targets are (low-HP, high-threat classes are a favorite), and focus on these. Down they go.

The problem is that there's no real tactics, the strategy is painfully obvious. Everyone's just gonna go after the opposing Trader. Then maybe the MP or NT. The MA/Engi will get rooted and ignored until last.

At least with "balanced" classes (whatever that might mean), there's no optimal attack plan for every battle.

Hey Bonk, if you're the same Bonk from Camelot vnboards you should know all this .

[________________Xira]

Originally posted by Bonk
Well many people say that pvp is really broken in AO. What games have good pvp and why and why does it suck so much in AO?

PVP sucks in AO because

1) You need to be uber high level. Level 190+ soon to be 195+ for most classes. 2000+ hours of pure exping.

2) You need to have uber items. Items that take 200 hours of camping to get. If you don't have the items, you get reamed by someone who does.

3) You must have the right profession. If you are ...say...a NT, you suck, end of story.

[______________Sara79]

Well it seems to me that this will be an entirely different system all together. Unlike PVP in the Arena where you know what you are up aginst, in The booster, you may win or you may not. It said in the newsletter that you could grid to your controller. So a team could put all there Non enforcer types in the grid and let them no when they are under attack, and everyone could grid in like the calvery.... Also you could have cloked agents and the like hideing near the controller.... Well the possibilities are endless

(And FunCom will no doubt have to nerf some of these after implementation, 1000's of players can find Exploits much easyer then a bug hunter or two)

Anyway, the point is Massive PVP conflicts will change the dynamic considerably. I don't believe that the stratagies will be remotely similer to one on one PVP. So if nothing else it will give the non PVP classes a way to participate. After all, many professions are simply more effective as members of a team then as individuals.

Plus with any luck non uber PVPers will participate just for the fun of it. So maybe I'll win a PVP match or two. Course I still haven't gotten over my nasty habbit of shooting Aimed shots at level 200's just to tick em off before the anihilate me (Im just level 90).

[Bionitrous]

5 NT's + 1 Fixer waiting in the Grid.

- Drop out at your tower.

- Target one particular player.

- AoE Nuke him to death simultaneously.

- Fixer IE's all 6 back into the Grid to 'await further orders'.

It's all about tactics, organization, innovation, teamwork.

1 on 1 PvP should never had been anything more than a fun diversion. It most _certainly_ should never have been rewarded with a title. Nothing has hurt this game more than the emphasis placed on solo PvP because of them damn titles.

[______________Sara79]

Originally posted by Bionitrous
5 NT's + 1 Fixer waiting in the Grid.

- Drop out at your tower.

- Target one particular player.

- AoE Nuke him to death simultaneously.

- Fixer IE's all 6 back into the Grid to 'await further orders'.

It's all about tactics, organization, innovation, teamwork.

1 on 1 PvP should never had been anything more than a fun diversion. It most _certainly_ should never have been rewarded with a title. Nothing has hurt this game more than the emphasis placed on solo PvP because of them damn titles.

Well said Bionitrous... See this is what Im talking about... All sorts of possibilities. Why is no one else excited about this except me. Finally AO requires a brain.

Also the attacking team could set up one of the personal towers, not sure if those have Grid-to capeabilities or not, but if they did then they would have the same ability also. At least until the defenders blew up the personal tower (service tower I think it is called)

/Me salivates at the endless possibilities if this is well implemented

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Rogoff


I think you're talking about the 'Rock,Paper,Scissors" concept. In solo PvP, RPS fights have one of 4 outcomes:

1) You are jumped and destroyed quickly.
2) You are jumped and manage to escape.
3) You jump someone and destroy them instantly.
4) You jump someone and they get away.

You never actually FIGHT someone in RPS, you either kill them or run from them.

Team PvP is no easier to balance. People in the team generally know what the high-priority targets are (low-HP, high-threat classes are a favorite), and focus on these. Down they go.

The problem is that there's no real tactics, the strategy is painfully obvious. Everyone's just gonna go after the opposing Trader. Then maybe the MP or NT. The MA/Engi will get rooted and ignored until last.

At least with "balanced" classes (whatever that might mean), there's no optimal attack plan for every battle.

Hey Bonk, if you're the same Bonk from Camelot vnboards you should know all this .

Go for the Trader first? Heh...I play a Trader so I'll pass on that one (I know I'm a walking bullseye). But you forgot the Doc in your list.

The point is, Team PvP has more variables in it that Solo PvP. As such, there are more outcomes than a simple xxx Profession vs yyy Profession. Attempting to balance Solo PvP is just a waste of time.

[______________Martov]

I think that balance can go to hell.

Rather, AO should follow the NFL's (Never watched a game, don't go calling me white, er, gray trash) saying "Any given Sunday."

Or in other words, there should always be a chance, no matter the odds that you could win with a bit of luck and skill. The reverse should also be true, adding a bit of surprise into an otherwise predictable game.

[Artery]

Acctually there are no victims in PvP, some profs are uber but not that uber, every prof got its good and bad side.

Examples:

Non pvper thinks:GA fixer, oooh cool cant kill him

Reality: GA fixers are good but not imortal. They can easily get killed by NTs(GA doesmt help against nukes), they can also get killed by Traders(if nano res isnt maxed ) and you can also get killed by enfs(high attack rating hits thru the GA and a enf using fast weapons hit thru it quite often(maybe not with mk4 tho))

Non pvper thinks: Traders oooh they are the gods

Reality: Any prof with maxed nano resn twink equipment and luck are able to kill them.

Non pvper thinks: Doctors aw well never seen a good pvp doc died. They are immortal

Reality: Need maxed nano res or the trader will eat ya, mps can use nano shutdown and as long as the doc dont got HE he/she is killable

Then the profession that most think is the worst pvp prof is martial arts. Some say its cause they use melee.

Well acctually they can be the best(never tried it but should work) cause who wants to meet a fast, evading ,healing, critting(around 40% as high lvl), shotgun wearing person that does fire/chem dmg(not haved it confirmed)?

Anyway some classes arent uber and some arent victims its just that some classes got benefits against some and weak spots against others.

[Sallust]

Sorry but engineers and MPs totally suck at PvP. Root the pets, mez them, charm them, whatever and those classes are toast. High level MPs have nano shutdown and that is their only saving grace.

PvP is broken, and there are many bugs in the org system. How am I supposed to get excited about a booster pack based upon these two things?

[Artery]

Well let me explain

A MP using gun is awesome in pvp, just let the demon do some side dmg, dont expect the demon to be the main dmg dealer. Let the healing pet heal you and if mezz pet is working as it should well its a great pvp help. Then its just to start shooting with an ithaca or what you want.

Engies and crats might be the worst pvp profs, now crats should be to.

Still as long as the negy doesnt look on the bot as main dmg dealer the engy can make it(awhile).

[skybert]

I don't PvP much (if at all)

PvP one on one isn't useful. It serves no real purpose. Yeah, you get titles, but they don't mean much, do they?

What I had hoped PvP was going to be, was more like team vs team. One on one, I don't think professions should have an equal chance of winning. some professions should be better suited at fighting than others IMHO.

But as a team....

A team that knows eachother, have played a bit together, knows what to expect of the rest of the team..... should have an advantage over a team that has just met and don't ever remember the names of his teammates.

Like, when teaming with friends, I know that if I do something, I usually know what the rest of the team will do. If they do something, I think they know what I will do next, in most cases. Tactics, and knowing the people you play with.

...as for someone beeing "uber" in PvP.... I think everyone has their weaknesses... fixers with GA has nukes, MA and ENF has roots, docs and NT's has debuffs, traders has...gah! I'm sure they got something. I said I don't PvP much