Traders and PvP

[Hajkster]

Originally posted by Clark "Garzuperman" Kent



What exactly do you mean by saying "Traders will be even more fragile cause of the bracer nerf"?

Wont you be effected just as much as them? Is the bracer nerf any worse for traders than for any other profession? I think not, and you know it too, its the same for everyone.

Traders are way overpowered, so are docs, NERF them both!!!

Sure i will.. but instead of my specials or whatever does 56% dmg they will do 93% dmg.

So more dmg even tho drained. And as traders cant take so much beat anyway. =)

[Erase]

My experience with traders... (please remeber i pvp for fun I dont do it alot, hence my freshman title, but i enjoy it i dont mind losing battles nor my title)

My NR is maxed but not implamented I made the mistake of yelling out at the arena that I will dual the first person to /tell me.... so happened to be a trader, Knasbollen, so we start off I get my int debuff and dots and start shooting away... I get him to half way before I get the first drain.. I thought that he was being nice and did not start till halfway =) but i resisted his first one 5 times but it is not enough even him half way and me full he was still able to take me down.. nicley enough he did not kill me...
I have never been able to beat a trader is it my skills maybe... is it NR.. maybe... is it drains... maybe again it is fun for me

I have dualed lohmen 3 times now and I am up 2-1 on him =D that well place alpha did the trick on me =D...

Do i want traders nerfed.... no
Do i think something needs to be changed... yes
Do i have a suggestion.... no I just wanna kill me a trader just once!! =P

Anyway what i will propose either to support this tread or dispute this tread is any trader out there around my lvl that would like to test this.... I will triple implant NR and let you drain me till the cows come home to see a % of what i can resist on full off full deff and triple implanted and not implanted just send me a tell

/chickenpox

[Adjust]

Hehe wasn't really going for the "nerf traders" thang I wanted to point out that I don't think Docs will beat Traders 75% of times.

Also the thing about triple implanting NR is that then you're BM is 105 lower, so when those drains do hit you, you will be even more crippled

But it's an interesting thing to find out, I shall support ye in thy effort *slaps himself out of eq rp mode* Also could try dueling in that state, see how it works out.

[aaronb]

Originally posted by Lohem
Aaronb,

I made a blanket statement before about All Traders flaming this thread without reading and giving it a fair chance.

After reading your last post I just wanted to say that you and Kromoz where among the few Traders that came in here with an open mind and tried to intelligently discuss the issue.

In a game where Masteries range from +40 thru +70 on ONE skill, and even Mochams only gives +140...................

Don't you think that it is a bit off that a profession has the ability to not only Buff every one of his weapon and nano skills by 300+ but at the same time debuff EVERY weapon and nano skill of his opponent by ~415 ?

I'll close with that, and thank you for your comments and the way you defended your skills as a trader in a respectable manner.

Laterz

Appreciated, and I'm sorry if I reacted a little strongly. It's just difficult being on the receiving end of all the hate around for traders when there are many of us who didn't roll them to be PvP twinks.

I agree that +348/-415 is brutal, but let me share a little bit about how our profession works in normal teamplay and perhaps you'll understand why it's precarious to play around with this.

The concept behind a trader is that he/she exchanges and distributes skills. So, in a normal team mission, I will drain mobs in order to boost my skills to where I can wrangle the rest of my team without destroying myself in the process. At 165, I cannot even come close to casting a 132 wrangle without draining, and when I do cast my 132 wrangle, I am debuffed in all of my weapon and nano skills by 275. This means that I almost lose the entire effect of the drains in order to distribute the skills to my team. The AC drains work similarly, though they are rarely used due to the low return on investment for the NCU. All of these operate on a three minute timer, and as soon as I make a mistake (usually losing plunder), I have to wait for everything to clear before I can build up to it again.

This is challenging. This keeps missions tolerable for me. I don't want to lose this aspect of my chosen profession, which is the first reason why I don't want to see a 15 minute duration on drains.

However, this does not address the debuff portion of divest and plunder. It is obvious that in PvP, the distribution portion of our nano lines serves no purpose. As a result, we are buffing ourselves without debuffing ourselves, which means our attack rating becomes quite high (somewhere around 1260 fully implanted and buffed at level 200). Before drains, I am somewhere around 850 attack (shotgun is aqua, 4 points per level, title capped for me until L190). My nano skills are aqua and light blue and also title capped presently somewhere in the 700's, which blocks me from using any of my high level nanos (the ones appropriate for my level) until I drain. The important thing to note here is that the increase in our skills brings us up to par with (and a bit over) other professions.

The problem we face is that this takes time. It takes approximately 15 seconds to get both divest and plunder off and recovered, assuming no resists or fumbles (and I run into both all the time in PvP). By the time I'm done, I'm at around 30-40% nano and 30-40% health (if I'm lucky). The only reason I win is because my opponent is now debuffed into oblivion (and this frequently isn't enough). We start out weak, and end up strong.

Your proposal to make divest and plunder last fifteen minutes would destroy the risk factor involved in the debuffing process (which is where I almost always get killed). So basically, we come into a fight with a +348 attack and nano skills and there is no 15-20 second period of attempting to drain. We are coming after you using the top of our nano lines (health plunders, health hagglers, roots, whatever), top attack rating, and no nanoresist or fumble issue to deal with. So we start out strong and end strong.

I don't think this is really what you want. I know from experience that when people attack me when I have both divest and plunder already running, I'm insanely difficult to kill, even without my drains having been on them. This is why you see traders draining guards and NPCs in 2ho while we wait for action. I don't really duel, but in the 1 on 1 situations I've been in, typically I am not already running divest/plunder.

And this is what leads me to the suggestion to reduce the debuff portion of the drains. To remove them completely would essentially mean that you get to attack us for 15-20 seconds before we can fight back at your level. This would destroy us. To leave them as they are now, after the 15-20 seconds, you are entirely gimped. So I think it would be reasonable to cut them to perhaps half what they are now. This would not hurt us significantly or change our entire playstyle, but it would give you more of a chance to survive once we do have our drains running on you.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. I have enough broken nano lines right now, so I'm not real enthusiastic about having another.

[aaronb]

Originally posted by Coldstrike


Are they any more fragile than anyone else? They pretty much have the same hit points as anyone else, same evades as anyone else etc.

I have 6k unbuffed health and 4.5k nanopool. I am not fragile -- I agree with you completely.

[aaronb]

Originally posted by Clark "Garzuperman" Kent



What exactly do you mean by saying "Traders will be even more fragile cause of the bracer nerf"?

Wont you be effected just as much as them? Is the bracer nerf any worse for traders than for any other profession? I think not, and you know it too, its the same for everyone.

Traders are way overpowered, so are docs, NERF them both!!!

I think what he was referring to was our use of energy reflect bracers in order to reduce the damage done to ourselves when we heal.

[______________Hayake]

Originally posted by aaronb

I must add in here... where do you stand on Nano Shutdown? Opposed to hitting all of your skills by a certain amount, it completely removes nano casting ability. And with MPs having some incredible damage output when they so desire, this makes them pretty much unbeatable to most professions as well. As a trader, I would rather be divested and plundered than to have NS on me. Soldiers are one of the few professions that aren't so horribly affected by nano shutdown, but I'd be interested in your thoughts on this.

Hmm, you didn't ask it to me, but answering anyways. I play an ma and have played an mp (retired due to boredom at 150+). I really don't think nanoshutdown is such an overpowering weapon in pvp.

First of it only hurts nanoskills, meaning that for about every class besides nt's and crats their damage output remains the same.

It only lasts 1 minute and has a very long cast/recharge time.

I think it is only usefull against a few classes namely ga fixers, docs, nt's and to a lesser degree traders. Against every other class it is a bad idea to cast it as the mp will be dead or very close to being dead by the time (s)he got it off.

Btw: I have some trouble understanding why traders claim mp's will beat them in pvp when they get ns off, unless completely cought off guard I'd assume the trader will have drained the mp as well. Implying all the trader needs to do then is go full def and survive for 1 minute against the mp's pets and an oe'd mp that can use lowbie nukes. At the same time having his own attack rating already boosted considerably.

As soon as that minute is over which by all means I'd imagine you being able to survive, mp's pets damage in pvp is really really low, you can just root the mp's pets and laugh while you finish him/her off.

the btw was meant as an honest question, not a flame. I just imagine an mp vs trader fight would go like that and wonder what I could be missing.

[Think4urself]

Originally posted by Aaronb
And this is what leads me to the suggestion to reduce the debuff portion of the drains. To remove them completely would essentially mean that you get to attack us for 15-20 seconds before we can fight back at your level. This would destroy us. To leave them as they are now, after the 15-20 seconds, you are entirely gimped. So I think it would be reasonable to cut them to perhaps half what they are now. This would not hurt us significantly or change our entire playstyle, but it would give you more of a chance to survive once we do have our drains running on you.

Aaron, you got big King Kong sized balls (that's a good thing). I appauld you. I happen to think that your idea is great as well. And It takes a lot to say:

I agree that +348/-415 is brutal

You know it won't sit well with your fellow Traders as a profession, but you know that the current layout is wrong and there should be a change, so you said it anyway. Your the first HIGH level trader to come forward and be completely honest..... Thanks.

Do you think it would be possible for you as a high level trader to get the opinons of other traders you may know ingame, not neccisarily on these boards and find out what they think too ?

Originally posted by POX
I have dualed lohmen 3 times now and I am up 2-1 on him =D that well place alpha did the trick on me =D...

Hehe, that was a lot of fun and an experiment on my part (holding alpha for last). But don't you agree that me winning the first one is due in part to the fact that i asked you not to init debuff me and you didn't ?

The second duel was close too.. and my alpha took a dump :-( if I would have waiting one more reqular shot, that was cool...

The last time I think you totally owned me..... But all three were really good duels IMHO

[-kromoz-]

Sorry but I have to disagree here once again

As a trader, pvping most of my playing-time now, I quite never duel. why ? cuz 1vs1 pvp is not balanced at all (and I doubt it will be one day).
Most of the time I'm having fun in 2ho/Camelot where there's many people from both side running around.
And in this situation, debuffs aren't too overpowered, especially compared to soldiers stuffs (TMS, huge alphas) for mass pvp.
With land control coming, I assume mass pvp will become more important than duels. In my opinion duels are only to test tactics against others profs.

You can't duel a trader ? don't duel them.
I can't beat a enforcer, so I don't duel them and kill some in 2ho when I can
Go kill traders in mass pvp I hope you will be an happy soldiers

[_______________North]

I think there is a difference what we were talking about, I was referring to team PvP and your were referring to mass PvP.

I like both of these PvP types as well, but my comments in previous thread were aimed towards team PvP.

Mass PvP arguably suit soldiers the best and also those professions with better then average healing ability. As you can never be quite sure how many are attacking you or who is trying to debuff you etc. You kinda need an ability to stand above average amount of damage to survive ganking there.

I personally tend to stay back when doing mass PvP, as a NT I would be quickly dead in the front line. This is probably also true for traders and few other professions.

I still try to use range when I can albeit the range is not really that great use in a place such as Camelot. You can still employ it by positioning yourself in places where you don't get "out of sight" that often. Its not easy, but can be done. That way you are less bound for debuffs and other nuicances.

Mass PvP is not easy to balance, I doubt it can ever be balanced because you can never be quite sure whether you are fighting against a team or individual. The best we have at the moment is invidually balancing professions, its not perfect but its all we have, as there aren't different rules in mass PvP then there are individual duels.

[Coldstrike]

Originally posted by Kromoz
Sorry but I have to disagree here once again

As a trader, pvping most of my playing-time now, I quite never duel. why ? cuz 1vs1 pvp is not balanced at all (and I doubt it will be one day).
Most of the time I'm having fun in 2ho/Camelot where there's many people from both side running around.
And in this situation, debuffs aren't too overpowered, especially compared to soldiers stuffs (TMS, huge alphas) for mass pvp.
With land control coming, I assume mass pvp will become more important than duels. In my opinion duels are only to test tactics against others profs.

You can't duel a trader ? don't duel them.
I can't beat a enforcer, so I don't duel them and kill some in 2ho when I can
Go kill traders in mass pvp I hope you will be an happy soldiers

Well, I got one complaint about debuffs in general and drains in particular in mass PvP. They make us all spend 75% of the time inside some bunker waiting for the damn piece of **** to wear off.

It's fine with those NT nukes that has a 10-20 second debuff in it, you just keep shooting and hope things work out. But once you are hit with a 3 minute drain or 2 minute init debuff the odds are so much against you that there really are no other options than to zone and wait for it to wear off.

It only takes one doc or one trader to zone in and out, debuffing people every time, and forcing 10 or more people into sitting inside bunkers all day waiting for the debuffs to wear off.

The way I see it, the long duration debuffs are one of the most destructive elements to mass PvP. Drains are the second longest duration debuff after MP nano debuff as far as I know, and unlike the MP debuff they are broadband debuffs taking out most of the usefulness of a character.

[________Garzu-perman]

Originally posted by Hajkster


Sure i will.. but instead of my specials or whatever does 56% dmg they will do 93% dmg.

So more dmg even tho drained. And as traders cant take so much beat anyway. =)

Heheehehe, a Trader will beat your ass so bad and kill you easy and still have 100% health, and you know it.

A trader that has drained you for 400 points, you wont do dmg at all.

[-kromoz-]

Originally posted by Coldstrike

It only takes one doc or one trader to zone in and out, debuffing people every time, and forcing 10 or more people into sitting inside bunkers all day waiting for the debuffs to wear off.

I agree there's a problem here, but what about not being able to zone while in fight (pvp, not pvm) ? could be funny no ?

[aaronb]

Originally posted by Hayake


Hmm, you didn't ask it to me, but answering anyways. I play an ma and have played an mp (retired due to boredom at 150+). I really don't think nanoshutdown is such an overpowering weapon in pvp.

First of it only hurts nanoskills, meaning that for about every class besides nt's and crats their damage output remains the same.

It only lasts 1 minute and has a very long cast/recharge time.

I think it is only usefull against a few classes namely ga fixers, docs, nt's and to a lesser degree traders. Against every other class it is a bad idea to cast it as the mp will be dead or very close to being dead by the time (s)he got it off.

Btw: I have some trouble understanding why traders claim mp's will beat them in pvp when they get ns off, unless completely cought off guard I'd assume the trader will have drained the mp as well. Implying all the trader needs to do then is go full def and survive for 1 minute against the mp's pets and an oe'd mp that can use lowbie nukes. At the same time having his own attack rating already boosted considerably.

As soon as that minute is over which by all means I'd imagine you being able to survive, mp's pets damage in pvp is really really low, you can just root the mp's pets and laugh while you finish him/her off.

the btw was meant as an honest question, not a flame. I just imagine an mp vs trader fight would go like that and wonder what I could be missing.

Hayake,

Lasting a minute in PvP without my nanos isn't particularly easy. Outdamaging the MP's healpet when I'm running at most one divest is difficult. It may be that I just suck, but MP's spank me when they get NS on me.

[___________xenomorph]

Originally posted by Clark "Garzuperman" Kent



Heheehehe, a Trader will beat your ass so bad and kill you easy and still have 100% health, and you know it.

A trader that has drained you for 400 points, you wont do dmg at all.

lvl 112 noobs shouldn't be aloud to post

[aaronb]

Originally posted by Lohem

Aaron, you got big King Kong sized balls (that's a good thing). I appauld you. I happen to think that your idea is great as well. And It takes a lot to say:

You know it won't sit well with your fellow Traders as a profession, but you know that the current layout is wrong and there should be a change, so you said it anyway. Your the first HIGH level trader to come forward and be completely honest..... Thanks.

Do you think it would be possible for you as a high level trader to get the opinons of other traders you may know ingame, not neccisarily on these boards and find out what they think too ?

Actually, I'm not the first with this idea. Abid brought it up in our own forum and I've simply come up with the same conclusion:

http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...threadid=48377

I don't know a whole lot of high level traders (there aren't a lot to know). Most of the trader population consists of low level PvP twinks.

The benefit of this type of change is that it a) doesn't affect PvM at all, b) doesn't affect how we play in PvP, and c) it doesn't gimp us in either. We will still be pretty strong in PvP, but it won't be complete annihilation of your skills like it is now.

As a side note, some friends in my organization and I did quite a bit of testing with nano resist. It seems it's based on the alignment of the planets... sometimes it takes me ten tries to land divest, and other times I land plunder every single time.

[______________Sredni]

Originally posted by xenomorph


lvl 112 noobs shouldn't be aloud to post

lol, omg! I do beleive you just called Garzu, the man who along with Snarf area nuked swaths of omni dog's into oblivion thereby causing funcom to nerf nt area nukes, a guy who's been playing since forever... a nube.

I don't think that title really applies myself .


(I could be wrong mind, you are garzu arn't you Garzuperman?)

[Coldstrike]

Originally posted by Kromoz


I agree there's a problem here, but what about not being able to zone while in fight (pvp, not pvm) ? could be funny no ?

You realize of course that this would bring even more power to the trader and doc in PvP. The only reason people zone when they get those debuffs on them is because they are almost 100% crippling to the recipient. If I couldn't zone I'd just /terminate instead.

[Coldstrike]

Originally posted by aaronb


Hayake,

Lasting a minute in PvP without my nanos isn't particularly easy. Outdamaging the MP's healpet when I'm running at most one divest is difficult. It may be that I just suck, but MP's spank me when they get NS on me.

Then I guess you can relate to how easy it must be to last for *3* minutes without nanos or weapons.

[Coldstrike]

Originally posted by xenomorph


lvl 112 noobs shouldn't be aloud to post

Well, the oldest record I can find of garzu is at http://auno.org/ao/char.php?&name=garzu and this shows that he was 130+ in November 2001.. I would be a little more careful before tossing around the noob accusations in the future.