Traders and PvP

[_______________North]

"First, everything a trader does is based on three minute exchanges. I see this time period as being the primary struggle in playing our profession well. I think you'll find common among traders that this is a difficult juggling act to perform and the challenge of doing it is what makes the profession exciting to play. Extending the time period of the benefits of this line would disrupt this balance. A similar type of juggling act is done by crats in maintaining their two lines of charms (and this is why I recently started playing a crat alt)."

- "exchange" is hardly the word I would use here, if it was exchange I would be more alinged to agree with you.

--Aaronb, (about nano shutdown), this along with Init Debuffs can- be overpowering in PvP. Along with 100% heals. I have suggested a duration change for these nanos as well. Personally I don't see why a negative effects on debuffs should last for 2-3 minutes in PvP, that is one particular thing that makes them too strong, as they do not leave any room for a recovery. They simply are click-a-button-to-victory type of nanos that should not exist in this game, at least not in PvP.





I stop posting to this thread as well.

I have absolutely no interest making conversations/arguments with people who are incapable for it.

Some people here have serious ego problems. Those problems seems bigger then the problems with this game.

I understand that traders need to defend themselves in this issue, as it will effect an aspect in their game. However, I would advice traders to form posts that are justifying their postion rather then making themselves look redicilous by flaming all the other posters.

Really guys'n'girls, this thread was not about who is the best in PvP, this was about balance. Please take your personal exploits and self indulgements to the game...you can always send private messages. In other words, please grow up.

[Think4urself]

North,

Thanks for posting on this thread. Unfortunately not enough people are going to come to the PvP forum of other professions to make a dent. Not many people PvP, it's really a small percentage of gammers on Rubi-Ka..... The reason being because PvP is so borked and most people don't want any part of it.

I feel the only way to bring attention to this problem is to invest my creds and time to create another Trader and just totally abuse the heck out of him, Draining and Ganking everyone in sight till they and their mommas come here to complain and ask for reform.


Cocio,

I thought I said STFU. Give me a min, i'm scrolling up to double check............................................. ......................


Yep, I did. And why are you still talking? You have a funny way of not S'ingTFU. (Oh NO he didn't !!) Yes I did.

I said i'm done with the conversation, so why don't you leave it alone now. Thanks.

[______________Coc^-^]

Originally posted by Lohem
North,

Thanks for posting on this thread. Unfortunately not enough people are going to come to the PvP forum of other professions to make a dent. Not many people PvP, it's really a small percentage of gammers on Rubi-Ka..... The reason being because PvP is so borked and most people don't want any part of it.

I feel the only way to bring attention to this problem is to invest my creds and time to create another Trader and just totally abuse the heck out of him, Draining and Ganking everyone in sight till they and their mommas come here to complain and ask for reform.


Cocio,

I thought I said STFU. Give me a min, i'm scrolling up to double check............................................. ......................


Yep, I did. And why are you still talking? You have a funny way of not S'ingTFU. (Oh NO he didn't !!) Yes I did.

I said i'm done with the conversation, so why don't you leave it alone now. Thanks.

If u wish Lohem i can teach u how to play ur soldier and how to PvP with him.

::Edit::
And ya Lohem if u wanna back up ur posts about Traders being the all mighty PvP gods. Then take me up on the challenge.

[-kromoz-]

Originally posted by InfamousDuck


Glad a soldier finally stepped in to point out this issue. In my last 10 death's in 2ho, 8 or 9 of them are from soldiers. I was almost to novice, and now im halfway through Rookie because I die so much. You dont know what its like to be the most hunted breed in the game. You get a big advantage over Traders in 2ho type of places, in such that you dont get attacked.

Do you understand that Lohem and North ?

You're only talking about 1vs1 pvp.

Ok traders are bests in duel, but what about mass pvp ? I'm a trader and I don't duel cuz I don't think it's funny.
I prefer pvp in 2ho/camelot, and it's as important as duels.
With the booster pack coming it will become an important part of the game. (I hope it will at least )

SOLDIERS OWNZ every other profession in mass pvp !! they kick my butt every time I go to 2ho, that's soldiers that kill a lot of peeps in mass pvp, and that's soldiers that die the less due to TMS. As Infamousduck said "You dont know what its like to be the most hunted breed in the game ". But we don't whine about it, nobody complains about soldiers in mass pvp, so I don't understand why you cry about traders in duels.

Professions are not balanced in duels, and they will never be.
They are not balanced too in mass pvp, but advantages are not for the same profs.
Some profs have it bad both in duels and mass pvp, and I don't hear you complain for them.

I often hear that traders are selfish, but those I see here wanting to be the bests at every aspect of pvp are not us. We are really annoying in mass pvp but not "good". We don't kill many peeps, while we die a lot.

In conclusion, your nerfing campaign is pointless. You're just loosing your time and ours.
I could agree on some of your points Lohem and North but that's all about duels, and I don't care of duels. Open your mind and think about mass pvp please.

[-kromoz-]

Ho and btw ... let's imagine a duel ... trader vs soldier ... boum soldier dead ok ..

Now let's imagine 2 traders vs 2 soldiers, or 4 soldiers vs 4 traders .. the result should be a lot different here, don't you think ?

[___________Manchilde]

just wanted to point out regarding duels (arena duels particularly) that there are a few profs that can destroy a trader with ease (or at least force a draw 75% of the time).

Just assume all are lvl 200 in these duels

trader vs enforcer - enforcer...whether with beams, staffs, or EoT, they will beat a trader to the ground. With Rage and Mongo (or challenge if its just 1 vs 1), it almost always takes multiple castings of plunder to get it to stick and you dont have time to root them (plus Rage tends to kick the root off easily)

trader vs MP - really who gets the debuff off first, but if the MP shuts the trader down, its game over for the trader....MP will then just kill you with demons and IEC/shotgun/whatever weapon they have

trader vs doc - doc will init debuff you no matter what....it is all over after this. Basically the trader cant deal enough dmg fast enough to ever kill the doc, so the doc will just slowly kill you.

These are the 3 that are the nemesis of a trader. I assumed self buffing in this scenario, but even being fully raid buffed (MoP, RRF, TTS, HE, etc...) it still doesnt change things much. While we are mean in mass PvP as the annoying debuffer (much like docs and MPs), we dont own everyone. Most of the time this is what happens.

Trader and friends enter PvP vs another group. Debuffers (usually traders first, then docs, then MP's) are targeted first and we eat the alphas of most of the other team (thats what we get for being annoying ^^). This allows the soldiers and enforcers free reign to get off their alphas and TMS/mongo/rage/etc...

If you have PvPed in Camelot or 2HO, you know what I mean. Everyone knows that on the chat channel the traders and docs are called as the first targets to kill. The thing is in duels, that people are more scared of the idea of a trader roaming around and the stigma that surrounds us, rather than actually finding out for themselves (either that or they were destroyed by a trader twink when they are lvl 20, and they have refused to fight one ever since).

[Think4urself]

Originally Posted by Kromoz
Do you understand that Lohem and North ?

You're only talking about 1vs1 pvp.

Ok traders are bests in duel, but what about mass pvp ? I'm a trader and I don't duel cuz I don't think it's funny.
I prefer pvp in 2ho/camelot, and it's as important as duels.
With the booster pack coming it will become an important part of the game. (I hope it will at least )

SOLDIERS OWNZ every other profession in mass pvp !! they kick my butt every time I go to 2ho, that's soldiers that kill a lot of peeps in mass pvp, and that's soldiers that die the less due to TMS. As Infamousduck said "You dont know what its like to be the most hunted breed in the game ". But we don't whine about it, nobody complains about soldiers in mass pvp, so I don't understand why you cry about traders in duels.

Professions are not balanced in duels, and they will never be.
They are not balanced too in mass pvp, but advantages are not for the same profs.
Some profs have it bad both in duels and mass pvp, and I don't hear you complain for them.

I often hear that traders are selfish, but those I see here wanting to be the bests at every aspect of pvp are not us. We are really annoying in mass pvp but not "good". We don't kill many peeps, while we die a lot.

In conclusion, your nerfing campaign is pointless. You're just loosing your time and ours.
I could agree on some of your points Lohem and North but that's all about duels, and I don't care of duels. Open your mind and think about mass pvp please.

Thanks for seeing the logic in some of my points. Your one of the few traders that read the posts without flaming right away, and I truly appreciate that. I am not on a Nerf Campain, you are wrong there Kromoz.. but you are right that I am wasting my time, and maybe yours too (appologies for that - was not my intent).

I thought there would be more support, not only from other professions but traders as well. Most Traders I know, and me from my limited level 74 experience with traders, realize that with the current OE system there is a huge balance issue with Skill Drains.

I will stop posting here but I will continue to reply. If it dies it dies, I'm no longer going to stress the issue.

Originally posted by Cocio
If u wish Lohem i can teach u how to play ur soldier and how to PvP with him.

::Edit::
And ya Lohem if u wanna back up ur posts about Traders being the all mighty PvP gods. Then take me up on the challenge.

Teach me how to play my soldier ?? I hate people who think they are fundamentally better than everyone else. You have once again proven that you don't know me.

I am not impressed by you. I will reply to this thread as long as you keep your BS up. You can shut it, and let it drop to bottom.. or you can keep on talking. Doesn't matter to me. As far as i'm concerned it's a dead topic.

I'm sure someone else will start another thread and you will flame them right away as well. Cut and Paste "Another whiny noob who wants to nerf traders cause he sucks and can't pvp".

Your answer for everything.

[aaronb]

Originally posted by North
- "exchange" is hardly the word I would use here, if it was exchange I would be more alinged to agree with you.

They are exchanges. Ask any trader that does more than just drain during team missions.

Originally posted by North
I stop posting to this thread as well.

I have absolutely no interest making conversations/arguments with people who are incapable for it.

Whether or not this is aaronb-inclusive, I'm tired of spending time trying to be objective when this is the response I get and see others get. You say this in the same message that you reply to my constructive suggestion by nitpicking how I describe my profession. You have no credibility, so I applaud your decision to stop posting in this thread.

[Coldstrike]

Originally posted by Piikey
Trader and friends enter PvP vs another group. Debuffers (usually traders first, then docs, then MP's) are targeted first and we eat the alphas of most of the other team (thats what we get for being annoying ^^). This allows the soldiers and enforcers free reign to get off their alphas and TMS/mongo/rage/etc...

If you have PvPed in Camelot or 2HO, you know what I mean. Everyone knows that on the chat channel the traders and docs are called as the first targets to kill. The thing is in duels, that people are more scared of the idea of a trader roaming around and the stigma that surrounds us, rather than actually finding out for themselves (either that or they were destroyed by a trader twink when they are lvl 20, and they have refused to fight one ever since).

You ever considered for a single moment that the only reason traders are taken out first is because the drains are so damn over powered?

I guess actions speak louder than words, and the simple fact that *everyone* goes for the trader first should be a better indication that traders are a tad too powerful in PvP than anything I could ever put in words.

[_______________North]

aaronb, don't take me wrong here. Your post was very good and replied it before I decided made my remarks about stop posting to this thread. Your comments were appreciated, kinda comments I was hoping this thread would fuel more. Unfortunately, this was not the case.

My last comments were not ment for you, quite the opposite.

I posted earlier in this thread about the "exchange issue"

Laroche, I could not agree more with you. (slightly off topic)

Traders should exchange their skills. They should always carry a penalty in doing so, but in away that when used cleverly, the benefits to a trader would always be greater then penalties to a trader.

In my opinion, when FC fixed the Delayed Health Payment line, I thought "Hey, this is how I thought it would work". Nothing for a trader should come wihtout a cost for his own skills, abilities or HP/NP. The cost should be high, but benefits should be greater, depending how high penalty is the trader prepared to take. However, as traders do indeed need these lines of nanos to be effective, the benefits should always be much greater then the skill penalty to either trader or the opponent.

Divests for example, could have been the attack skill drains, but when trader uses this like, they would have to carry a penalty to their nanos skills. While the opponent would lose some of their attack skill, but not nano skills. (higher the nano ql is the higher the benefit is, and same for the penalty)

" A trader uses Divest Attack Skills and successfully drains 204 attack skills from the opponent. Trader loses 180 from his current nanos skills for a duration of 3 minutes while gains a benefit of 204 to all his attack skills. The opponent loses 204 points from his attack skills for a duration of 3 minutes while gainst 120 to his nanos skills."

Plunders could have been their nano skill drains with a penalty to trader's attack skills. While the opponent would suffer a penalty to their nano skills, but not on their attack skills. (higher the nano ql is the higher the benefit is, and same for the penalty)

AC debuffs, should work as they are, but with a slight penalty to traders evade skills. etc., but again penalty should not be greater the benefit in a long run.

Given the current game dynamics and how the traders would indeed be exchangers instead of vampires they are currently. Nano lines as this would make the whole profession slightly more complex and interesting to play with. At the moment, they are indeed Skill Vampires instead of Traders.

In team PvP, sure a trader can act as you described, no arguments there albeit how much a trader can give benefits are far inferior to those he can take and benefit from itself.

[Hajkster]

Originally posted by Thoriak


Skicka ett tell för fasen och lär mig :P.

va! båda är dem svenskar! ;p

[Hajkster]

Originally posted by North
"First, everything a trader does is based on three minute exchanges. I see this time period as being the primary struggle in playing our profession well. I think you'll find common among traders that this is a difficult juggling act to perform and the challenge of doing it is what makes the profession exciting to play. Extending the time period of the benefits of this line would disrupt this balance. A similar type of juggling act is done by crats in maintaining their two lines of charms (and this is why I recently started playing a crat alt)."

- "exchange" is hardly the word I would use here, if it was exchange I would be more alinged to agree with you.

--Aaronb, (about nano shutdown), this along with Init Debuffs can- be overpowering in PvP. Along with 100% heals. I have suggested a duration change for these nanos as well. Personally I don't see why a negative effects on debuffs should last for 2-3 minutes in PvP, that is one particular thing that makes them too strong, as they do not leave any room for a recovery. They simply are click-a-button-to-victory type of nanos that should not exist in this game, at least not in PvP.





I stop posting to this thread as well.

I have absolutely no interest making conversations/arguments with people who are incapable for it.

Some people here have serious ego problems. Those problems seems bigger then the problems with this game.

I understand that traders need to defend themselves in this issue, as it will effect an aspect in their game. However, I would advice traders to form posts that are justifying their postion rather then making themselves look redicilous by flaming all the other posters.

Really guys'n'girls, this thread was not about who is the best in PvP, this was about balance. Please take your personal exploits and self indulgements to the game...you can always send private messages. In other words, please grow up.

north.. im not a trader.. neither is infamine.. or some else... =/ You just have to have experience to know Traders are very fragile.. after 14.5 they will be even more fragile cause of the bracer nerf. You just gotta be tactical about it.. One time i killed a 198 trader in a lucky Fling + as + cof + ief before he even reacted. then another time i got slaugthered by a 125 trader even tho i had a fp + river that dealt a brutal alpha with a ellts scope... =/

its random. =/

[Think4urself]

Aaronb,

I made a blanket statement before about All Traders flaming this thread without reading and giving it a fair chance.

After reading your last post I just wanted to say that you and Kromoz where among the few Traders that came in here with an open mind and tried to intelligently discuss the issue.

In a game where Masteries range from +40 thru +70 on ONE skill, and even Mochams only gives +140...................

Don't you think that it is a bit off that a profession has the ability to not only Buff every one of his weapon and nano skills by 300+ but at the same time debuff EVERY weapon and nano skill of his opponent by ~415 ?

I'll close with that, and thank you for your comments and the way you defended your skills as a trader in a respectable manner.

Laterz

[Coldstrike]

Originally posted by Hajkster


north.. im not a trader.. neither is infamine.. or some else... =/ You just have to have experience to know Traders are very fragile.. after 14.5 they will be even more fragile cause of the bracer nerf. You just gotta be tactical about it.. One time i killed a 198 trader in a lucky Fling + as + cof + ief before he even reacted. then another time i got slaugthered by a 125 trader even tho i had a fp + river that dealt a brutal alpha with a ellts scope... =/

its random. =/

Are they any more fragile than anyone else? They pretty much have the same hit points as anyone else, same evades as anyone else etc.

[______________Sredni]

heh http://forums.anarchy-online.com/pol...lts&pollid=430

Tho I notice some people *winkwinknudgenudge* voted engineer to throw the poll off .

[________Garzu-perman]

Originally posted by Hajkster


north.. im not a trader.. neither is infamine.. or some else... =/ You just have to have experience to know Traders are very fragile.. after 14.5 they will be even more fragile cause of the bracer nerf. You just gotta be tactical about it.. One time i killed a 198 trader in a lucky Fling + as + cof + ief before he even reacted. then another time i got slaugthered by a 125 trader even tho i had a fp + river that dealt a brutal alpha with a ellts scope... =/

its random. =/

What exactly do you mean by saying "Traders will be even more fragile cause of the bracer nerf"?

Wont you be effected just as much as them? Is the bracer nerf any worse for traders than for any other profession? I think not, and you know it too, its the same for everyone.

Traders are way overpowered, so are docs, NERF them both!!!

[-kromoz-]

Originally posted by Clark "Garzuperman" Kent


Traders are way overpowered, so are docs, NERF them both!!!

What about fixers Garzu ?
You come here with 0 arguments crying for nerf, what a constructive post, thanks for your participation here.

[________Garzu-perman]

Garzu is an NT, thanks.


Anyway, Fixers in GA 4 are uber from what I hear, I got no idea my self, since I never fought one, at least not after the "Great defensive skill boost" from FC in 14.4 (or was it 14.2?) which made the bonuses from GA absolutely spectacular.

With my NT ive dueled many of them, but since Nukes hit just fine, and so did my specials from my Flash, ive never really experienced the problem, and since my FIxer is still below 120, ive not tried to duel a fixer with GA 4 with him either.

I am very aware there is some overpowering aspects with the GA suits, personally I dont think its caused by the armor itself, I think its because FC boosted the def skills WAY to much. But since the def skills will stay as they are (a guess), I admit that the GA armor might need an adjustment to make it less powerful.



Now, with me saying that, is it ok that I fight for a Trader/doc nerf? If I denied that GA needed a turndown, then it wouldnt be ok, im I right?

So, thanks, NERF DOCS and TRADERS NOW PLZ!!!

[________Garzu-perman]

BTW, if you have any forum history here, you should know my arguements for this nerf calling very well....


If you are really interested, why dont you perform a search for posts and threads written by "Garzu"? I dont feel any need to present the same arguements again and again, we all know what its about, so if you feel like presenting counter arguements all the time, then go ahead.

[Adjust]

Originally posted by Piikey
just wanted to point out regarding duels (arena duels particularly) that there are a few profs that can destroy a trader with ease (or at least force a draw 75% of the time).

Just assume all are lvl 200 in these duels


trader vs doc - doc will init debuff you no matter what....it is all over after this. Basically the trader cant deal enough dmg fast enough to ever kill the doc, so the doc will just slowly kill you.

*cough* bs mate

Ok dudes, who are these docs which beat traders 75% time ? How can a doc "land the init debuff first no matter what" ? Theres an obvious 50/50 chance on who lands first drain, with the possibility of an instant exchange. All the traders has to do is last the 2 mins of drained init debuffs, full def while throwing out the drains and plunders, after that doc can't debuff again and is a sitting duck. But hey I'm open minded

Please post here docs experiences with traders, we need at least a 3 to 4 ratio to justify what my right honourable friends has said

My own experience of traders = owned, unless there dumb or afk

Btw cocio I would be more than happy to fight you dude as a doc, me as a trader Hell I only have a 25% at best chance of winning as well, I'll take my chances