Traders and PvP

[_______________Cudus]

SaveyourBUTT, pleeease..

Lets take minimum damage. say the mob uses a weapon with 50 as minimum dmg and has 800 attackrating. He would hit me for 150 regardless of ac's am i correct?

So if I drain the mob 400 pt he would have 400 attackrating and hit me for 100? Eh? No. Damage doesnt change at all.

Not that I really care, though it would be nice if skilldrains actually affected mobs.

[Aqua]

Originally posted by Jynne
I think the main complaints about the trader drain nanos are the following:
[list][*] There are two lines of skill drains that stack.[*] Neither line is resistable on a reliable, or even consistent, basis.[*] NanoC init, full agg, and a recompiler will allow both to be insta-cast.[*] Each line significantly reduces all the victim's weapon and nano skills.[*] Each line significantly raises all the caster's weapon and nano skills.

* Yes they do stack.
* Neither line is castable on a reliable, or even consistent, basis
* Each line locks all of the traders nano skills for 6 seconds
* Each line raises the traders attack rating so they can compete with the other professions who already have a higher attack rating.
* Each line executes a debuff on the other professions which last 3 minutes but good luck landing both.

~aqua

[Mercatura]

Yes they do. When you drain a mob, they hit for less, nano NPCs nuke for less, Trader NPCs drain for less ect... At higher levels it doesn't seem like they hit for less because player AC is so high that they hit minimum damage before drain... and after drain they are still hitting high enough to still hit you for minimum damage.

No they don't. When you drain a mob, they hit for the same, they are still able use the same nukes. Trader NPCs can still use the highest drain with both drains running on them. At higher levels I can get big nasty mobs that don't even hit for minimum damage on 7000 AC. (Hello Mr. Bossroom minions and/or RM Bully/MA/Enf/etc) And after the drain they are still hitting for just as much as before.

BTW, if drains actually worked on mobs, the minimum damage would also be less.

Get your facts straight before chugging the NerfBound Express™ down the track. Just because it has all the bandwagoners on board doesn't mean it won't fall off the bridge.

[Think4urself]

Abid, Kromoz, Cuduz:

I never claimed to be an expert on Traders. I have some insight no matter what you want to think or say, because yes, i have played the profession to level 74. That does not mean I am a master of the trader class or know all there is to know, but I do know more than lets say a soldier who has never played a trader. And yes, every profession goes through changes through the level ranges and you are never the same at level 74 that you are at level 175... but it does not change the fact that the game should be balanced thoughout all levels.

I gave a perfectly even suggestion and it was shot down immediately because it takes away half of your God Mode:

*SKILL* *CURRENT* *EXTREME NERF* *MY FIX*

*Your Attack* *1300+* *850-900* *1300+*
*My Attack* *450~* *932* *932*
*Your Evade* *900* *900* *900*
*My Evade* *800* *800* *800*

Based on my 800 Duck and your 900~ Dodge Ranged, who has the advantage? Guess what... Still Traders. I know my evades are 900 ranged, 850 evade and 800 duck, that' swhat i'm going off of.

Maybe if this happened you would actually us your AC/HP/Nano Drains in PvP since you would have 15 minutes of 300+ to nano skills ?

I make a suggestion that still gives you the advantage.. and you shoot it down immediately because it gives someone else a CHANCE to beat you.

I am not on a crusade to nerf traders, but i am going to be vocal about fixing the PvP issues. This is a confict based game and PvP should be given priority.

Even though my account ends in a few days and I won't be back to play till mid November, I may reopen the account for the sole purpose of keeping this topic, the CRITICAL topic, alive in the forums until some kind of Fix is made.

Jynne, Saveyourbutt, Laroche, Hajkster, North:

Thanks for your support on this thread. Please let your professions know to check this thread out and post their comments and suggestions about this.

I really feel that it is imperitive that we get as many as possible people involved in this and get all points from all professions.

Please guys, lets get all the professions involved.

Thanks So Much.

[Jynne]

Originally posted by Aqua


* Yes they do stack.
* Neither line is castable on a reliable, or even consistent, basis
* Each line locks all of the traders nano skills for 6 seconds
* Each line raises the traders attack rating so they can compete with the other professions who already have a higher attack rating.
* Each line executes a debuff on the other professions which last 3 minutes but good luck landing both.

~aqua

You mean they have a 6-second recharge time? Or they actually lock your skills past the nano program recharge time? Every profession who casts nanos in combat has to contend with recharge times limiting them. No sympathy from me there. If you can insta-cast your first drain then insta-cast the other six seconds later, it takes you only six seconds to execute both drains.

You are however ignoring half of my point. My point is not that the drains raise the trader's skills and attack rating, it is that the drains both raise the trader's skills and attack rating AND reduce the victim's skills and attack rating. I wouldn't care if it just boosted the trader's skills and attack rating. But since it makes the trader stronger and me weaker (indeed, gimpy) in one fell swoop... drains are ouchy

And the resist issue... has anyone gone to say the PvP room in Wine with a trader friend and done some nanoresist tests on drains? If so, speak up. There's been a lot of 'wrangling' (ooh bad trader pun) over how resistable the drain nanos are. If it hasn't been tested... it should be. I don't think we should argue on that point until and unless we get some resists numbers.

Some parameters:

• There should be at least 200 repetitions for statistical accuracy.
• The trader and the 'test subject' should be on the same title level at least.
• Individual tests should be run for 0% aggdef, 50% aggdef, 100% aggdef. (Yes that means 600 or more casts will be required).
• Different levels of nanoresist should be tested, either through multiple test subjects or through implant swapping, IP allocation between tests, and buffs.

Really unless and until we test it, we have no way of knowing how resistable the drains actually are. Anecdotal evidence - on either side of the issue - is spurious at best.

[Mercatura]

I guess tests on 150,000 mobs don't mean anything.

Before you ask for NR to be boosted too much, keep in mind the mobs probably have double what raging enf at full def would have

Might be too late, 14.5 may have done it already.

[Thorlicious]

I really don't understand what this is really about.

ok if we look at who's complaining here we have the classes who have a hard time...i didn't look at every prof but most of them were soldiers and nt's.

I think the proposial to alternate the TMS with 75% of resisting nano (or which would really be bad reflecting it to the castor) would really lift you up in the pvp scene. Lohem, i think you want to balance pvp, and with nerfing trader you would still have those other profs which are better in pvp.

or "if" nanoresists gets even more boosted also NT's will have a good time resisting the trader debuffs...

those nefs you call out should be an last option "IF" there is really no other way to alter your own class or a specific skill so that you can compete with them.

what do you say from the engy point of view when he has to look at your TMS, I mean doesn't it seem to be unfair to him that you're having a combat nano and he doesn't have one?

I think still the most important aspect is to make every class a nice if not even a funbringing time to play (ya also for an engy ) and not to prolly totally destroy the fun of another class...

Just my 2 cents..

[Think4urself]

Allexxeh,

Hiya bro. I remeber when you were a lowbie MA and we were hunting Mini-bulls in Galaway County with my deleted doctor "Doctek". That was a long time ago, I still remember you were from Germany, cause that's where I was born.... you were cool peeps, I'm sorry I didn't get to play with you much more after that.

Anyway,

Originally Posted by Allexxeh
I really don't understand what this is really about.

ok if we look at who's complaining here we have the classes who have a hard time...i didn't look at every prof but most of them were soldiers and nt's.

I think the proposial to alternate the TMS with 75% of resisting nano (or which would really be bad reflecting it to the castor) would really lift you up in the pvp scene. Lohem, i think you want to balance pvp, and with nerfing trader you would still have those other profs which are better in pvp.

I don't want to nerf the trader, ultimately I know thats what it looks like. There will always be a profession that has a distinct advantage over another profession no matter what, certain professions are bound to lose and win against specific others.... A soldier for example looks like this (on average):

AGAINST:
Doctor vs. Soldier = Doctor
Crat vs. Soldier = Soldier
Engie non Transference vs. Soldier = Soldier
Engie MA/Transference vs. Soldier = Engie
Fixer vs. Soldier = Even
Trader vs. Soldier = Trader
Soldier vs Soldier = Even
Enforcer vs. Soldier = Enforcer
Agent vs. Soldier = Even
Meta High Level vs Soldier = Meta
Meta Low Level vs Soldier = Soldier
Nano Tech vs. Solder = Nano Tech
Advent vs. Soldier = Advent
Martial Artist vs. Soldier = MA

I listed two each for meta (because at low levels the heal pet has very low HP) and the Engie because in Transference they ROCK hardcore... God Bless them.

These are all IMHO, so Soldier typically wins 3 out of the 14, they are Even on 3 out of 14, and typically lose 8 out of 14. To be honest, I'm not too unhappy about the overall results of that... I will honestly win a little less than 50% of the time and lose 50% of the time.... That is cool with me. There are certain professions i will lose to every time and walk away with a smile on my face... Enforcer, Nano Tech, MA, Engie in Transference. I don't care about that, because check this out:

Doctor vs. Trader = Trader
Crat vs. Trader = Trader
Engie non transference vs. Trader = Trader
Engie ma/transference vs. Trader = Engy
Fixer vs. Trader = Trader
Trader vs. Trader = Even (whoever gets off the first drain)
Soldier vs Trader = Trader
Enforcer vs. Trader = Enforcer (i'm being generous, should be at best even)
Agent vs. Trader = Trader
Meta high level vs. Trader = Trader
Meta low level vs. Trader = Trader
Nano Tech vs. Trader = Trader
Advent vs. Trader = Trader
MA vs. Trader = Even

This is again IMHO. Typically the trader will win 10 out of 14, go Even 2 out of 14 and Lose 2 our of 14.

You could do this chart for each profession and would mostly come out 50/50 just like the soldier....... The Trader is more like 90/10.

Is this what you call balance?

or "if" nanoresists gets even more boosted also NT's will have a good time resisting the trader debuffs...

Yeah that will be nice for NTs and Enforcers and anyone else with Green Nano Resist.. Again - Soldiers are Darkest Blue and Title 5 capped at 600~

those nefs you call out should be an last option "IF" there is really no other way to alter your own class or a specific skill so that you can compete with them.

This is not a Trader vs. Soldier thread. It is all in general and effects all professions.

what do you say from the engy point of view when he has to look at your TMS, I mean doesn't it seem to be unfair to him that you're having a combat nano and he doesn't have one?

Have you ever fought a high level Engy in Transference bro
Engies have Shield Debuffs that will make TMS cry. My fastest death ever came from Ethernal and my closest match ever came from Adriana (sp). Both Engies in Transference.

I think still the most important aspect is to make every class a nice if not even a funbringing time to play (ya also for an engy ) and not to prolly totally destroy the fun of another class...

I agree with you 110%

[Hajkster]

Weren't complaining.

[Jynne]

Originally posted by Mercatura
I guess tests on 150,000 mobs don't mean anything.

Before you ask for NR to be boosted too much, keep in mind the mobs probably have double what raging enf at full def would have

Might be too late, 14.5 may have done it already.

Tests on mobs, actually, don't count. No matter how many you've run. Mobs don't operate under the same skill limitations on players; you mentioned it yourself. I've even heard of mobs still being able to cast after being smacked with nano shutdown.

This isn't to advocate that nanoresist be boosted. But reading through this thread, Traders almost universally claim a very high resist rate on their drains in PvP, while non-traders claim they practically never resist it. These two positions are almost polar opposites, and the only evidence being proffered on either side is anecdotal. But it is an empirically proveable situation, so... I guess I'll ask for volunteers: Do any traders want to help me determine the rate of resists on drains?

[_______________North]

This thread should not be about NR.

Regardless, what NR is, the advantage still remains the same. I have done a lot testing with NR and know quite a bit about its behaviour. It is working just fine, it is not overpowering, its not rock solid, its as good as your evades...you will still get hits.

If you ask FC to start tweaking NR in the way that those nanos with 100% resist (defence) would be resisted most of the time, then you would completely destroy nuking classes. I am a NT and nuking myself (good test btw) is pretty hard when I have maxed, implanted and item-tweaked Nano Resistance. The last tests I run on myself where with NR of 1016 with the aggro bar on full defence.

Overal findings (NR 1016 full defence, attacking skills of the opponent between 760-900 in nano skills:

Nanos with 100% resist come through about 3/10 - 5/10.
Nanos with 110% resist (nt nukes) come through 1/10 - 3/10.
Plunder with 190% resist only landed on me twice out of 50 or so tries.
Nanos with lower then 100% resist landed on me 3/10 - 7/10. This varied a lot.

Side note: trader always managed to divest me during the test, but only once to plunder too. The difference was that he could be on full aggro against me, where as I had to remain on full defence. Divest in this occasion is enought to kill me over and over again, as I have to stay in Full Defence, if I want to have a chance resisting that Plunder. Which btw, lands with very few tries, if I am on Full Aggro...but doesn't really matter, as I was dead either way.

Nano Resistance is a pretty powerful tool if used correctly. The funny thing is that I could not even break a root when on full defence, as I resisted all my attemps to break it

Lets look at the suggestions that we have had to make NR even more powerful:

Nano Resistance would have to be increased dramatically if Divest (100%) for example would become easier to resist. However, as an side effect, NTs, MPs and Crats would not be able to use their nukes anymore. This game would go in the direction that all professions would be using defensive nanos, not offensive nanos, aka Layered Protection instead of Izgimmer's Enveloping Flame etc etc.

All in all, increasing the effectiveness of nano resistance is a bad idea as it affect all those professions that currently have to use nanos against their opponents. It would, however, be a blessing for professions that only use nanos for themselves. This would in my opinion create even bigger imbalance problem then we are currently facing here. It would render all professions with offensive nanos nearly useless.

[_______________North]

(off topic)

Mercantura, not sure about traders in PvM when it comes to drains, but after 14.4 NT blinds seem to work on mobs pretty well. This only affects mobs attack rating tho, not skills (mobs to my understanding don't have skills), so the problem might lie there.

As a NT I can really reduce the damage from mobs (highest level veterans, low level aces) a lot, I use area blind that reduces the attack rating by 190 or so and single blind that reduces attack rating just above 200. This will reduce the overall damage from a mob quite a bit.

[Jynne]

Originally posted by North
<snip>
Overal findings (NR 1016 full defence, attacking skills of the opponent between 760-900 in nano skills:

Nanos with 100% resist come through about 3/10 - 5/10.
Nanos with 110% resist (nt nukes) come through 1/10 - 3/10.
Plunder with 190% resist only landed on me twice out of 50 or so tries.
Nanos with lower then 100% resist landed on me 3/10 - 7/10. This varied a lot.

<snip>

This sounds like a good start for what I'm talking about. Did you do this recently?

To clarify again, I never said nano resist should be improved. Though that may be advocated by someone else... I will not speak whereof I do not know. But since it's possible to run a test and lay to rest the argument on this thread about how hard or easy it is for players to resist trader drains, it should be done.

When people assert that drains are hard to resist - they have no proof. And when traders assert that drains are easy to resist, they also have no proof. Let's get proof, and depending on the results, we can go from there.

[_______________North]

I tested these about 1.5 weeks ago. And tests also included a trader using drains on me at arena.

Divests are 100% resistance and are easy to land. Unless you have very low skills in respective nano skills and I have fairly high resist. If my NR skill is much higher then your PSY/T&S then I will have a higher chance of resisting it.

In this case my opponent had his skills around 760-800ish while my resistance was at 1016. I did resist his drains just like I mentioned with those 100% nanos. And therefore, it is relatively easy land on opponent even if on full defence (also considering that he only had to get one succesful hit, not many as I needed with my nukes). His divest landed almost every tiem when I was on full aggro, while I still managed to resist few plunders, but not enough to be worth mentioning.

I did not check on the middle stance, just the opposite ends.

[Mercatura]

Merc_atura, not sure about traders in PvM when it comes to drains, but after 14.4 NT blinds seem to work on mobs pretty well. This only affects mobs attack rating tho, not skills (mobs to my understanding don't have skills), so the problem might lie there.

AMS debuffs have worked on mobs since at least 13.something. So yes, the problem does lie there

BTW, FC doesn't currently seperate player/mob nano resist. With the evades boost, which actually did something to DMS AFAIK, mobs started resisting and dodging more as well. A lot more in some cases. (parry)

Somehow I get the feeling that any vet/master or higher mob can fight at 1/1 full def, and the difference between mob A and B is more what agg setting they like to use.

Anyways, its a moot point. Traders are on everyone's buzzword list and I'm sure theres a lovely nerf or 6 lined up for us.

[Palmero]

my NR is 600 right now and i resist NS, init debuffs and drains.. so im rely sorry for u Lohem if NR dosent work for you

try it in full deff

[Thorlicious]

(off topic)

Originally posted by Lohem
Allexxeh,

Hiya bro. I remeber when you were a lowbie MA and we were hunting Mini-bulls in Galaway County with my deleted doctor "Doctek". That was a long time ago, I still remember you were from Germany, cause that's where I was born.... you were cool peeps, I'm sorry I didn't get to play with you much more after that.

Damn right i remember them although i forgot who this enforcer was who didn't want to give you his monster parts


Ya well somehow our paths splitted which is really a shame, I had quit to play on dim 2 and also have now canceled my subscription cause this game got utterly boring...

And ya german f00 here

Oh and yes i didn't fight an engy yet, since somehow Calox didn't want to try pvping unless he could stand 2 zones away from me with letting his pet attack me
-----------------------


wow, didn't know that nanoresist is working actually already that good. I always had the impression from what others told me that it's not always working that good. Maybe an improvement would be a simple nanoresist bonus then from TMS (something like Rage does for an enforcer) and i don't think it's overpowered since the Soldier then anyway has a Nanoshutdown on himself.

cause as long as it goes for nerfs I'm against it, but putting a class up like a soldier (Yes they really need love, even more than NT's do imho).

Oh and yes Hajk wasn't complaining he stood up for the traders and stated right...drains is the only real weapon Traders have (Someone give him a free +132 wrangle for that )

[______________Coc^-^]

Dunno what people think about NR but from experience it does work.

When fully buffed (i.e having over 1100 nano skills vs their NR) i usually still need 2-3 tries before i can land my divest/plunder.
Fixer in GAIV = 5 tries or more when casting divest (100% resist), forget about landing plunder on them.
Doc on full deff = Never landed. I was running after dodgeman in Camelot castle. Spamming divest on him time after time and it didnt land.
Even had a solja or 2 resist them. Its all about implanting and going full deff.
IF u dont wanna give up stuff that conflicts with NR in implants then dont, but ffs dont go here complaining.

[__________Beautyfarm]

just to clarify this, drains DONT work on mobs as they dont have a skill system. for the attack checks they of course need to have an attack rating, so the blinds (ams debuffs) work.
also, nano resist works quite well already now with some more tweaking in the future as it seems. traders are already second choice in pvm (at best), nerfing drains would make them unplayable.

(yes, i do play a trader and no hes neither my main nor a pvp twink.)

[athx]

hehe...dodge has all the NR stuff(2xrings, 2xfocus, triple implanted) good to hear others then enfs can resist divests...especially your divests =P