Welcome to Whiners Online...
Btw Lohem drains doesn't effect damage output of mobs at all, just so you know...
The other profs will get their love in some time so quit your whining Lohan
I want to side-track this abit ...
...and their target? They trade with their target? That's not what you traders do. A "trader" is a person who conducts an exchange of one thing for another to gain profit. This implies mutual consent. There is no exchange when it comes to PvP/PvM. To label this profession as "trader" is a blatant misnomer. The core strength of this profession is best described as "skill pirate" or "ability vampire".Originally posted by Womble
traders are not merchants, traders trade in skills, nano, armour and health between themselves their party and their target. That is where the TRADE in traders comes from.
And I am still of the mind that MAs, enfs, and soldiers should have a definite edge in combat because that's what their profession's name implies. Traders? Combat support at best.
Sorry. This is a bit off topic from what Lohem is discussing. Just had to vent.
Groundeffect (RK2)
hahahahahahahaha, that's seriously funny!Originally posted by Lohem
Yes they do. When you drain a mob, they hit for less, nano NPCs nuke for less, Trader NPCs drain for less ect... At higher levels it doesn't seem like they hit for less because player AC is so high that they hit minimum damage before drain... and after drain they are still hitting high enough to still hit you for minimum damage.
This thread has everything to do with PvP and absolutely nothing to do with PvM...
In my opinion the biggest problem we have here is that while you get drained, its not only your attack rating that suffers, but also your defence is shattered. And there is nothing that you can do for next 3 minutes then try to zone or /terminate. The harm-againt vs. gain-for factor is way too wide with these debuffs. In away, FC should have really thought about this issue before they went and halfed the damage in this game, and introduced OE.
I personally think that debuffs such as divests and plunders should never have been a part of PvP environment along with Nano Shutdown and Init Debuffs. They are so overpowering that you could have just easily given these professions a god-mode-rip-off from Quake. However, from these four sets of debuffs, trader debuffs are by far the most cruel.
I could go on and on, explaining why they are so overpowering, but I have done it so many times in the other posts, so let me just go to suggestions.
There are ways to implement changes to trader's Divest/Plunders without touching PvM at all. I personally think that what ever the chages should be, they should br reduced by 50% penalty to the target. Damage is halfed, it is only fair that debuffs and heals get the same treatment.
These are just my opinions I have been thinking this issue over and over and there does seem to be few solutions. Today's traders probably won't like any of them, but then again I am not here to please anyone:
1. Cap all debuffs in PvP to max 30 seconds duration. With this you would also have to make sure that debuffs won't stack. As a target, you could only be carrying one debuff at at the time. All debuffs only 50% effective in PvP.
2. Make Divests to drain attack skills and Plunders to drain nano skills. They would not stack, so you can use one, but not another. Also 50% effective in PvP.
3. Make divests/plunders shorter in duration and work similar to other time-inflicted nanos, such as some of the adventurer nanos where as you get benefits when you use the nano, but can't reuse it again shortly (aka time penalty)
I also think duration problem should be looked seperately on nano-lines such as Init Debuffs and Nano Shutdown.
{edit} edited the last suggestion, I understood it was a bit harsh, and would not like that to happen to traders.
Last edited by North; Sep 13th, 2002 at 19:27:07.
Laroche, I could not agree more with you. (slightly off topic)
Traders should exchange their skills. They should always carry a penalty in doing so, but in away that when used cleverly, the benefits to a trader would always be greater then penalties to a trader.
In my opinion, when FC fixed the Delayed Health Payment line, I thought "Hey, this is how I thought it would work". Nothing for a trader should come wihtout a cost for his own skills, abilities or HP/NP. The cost should be high, but benefits should be greater, depending how high penalty is the trader prepared to take. However, as traders do indeed need these lines of nanos to be effective, the benefits should always be much greater then the skill penalty to either trader or the opponent.
Divests for example, could have been the attack skill drains, but when trader uses this like, they would have to carry a penalty to their nanos skills. While the opponent would lose some of their attack skill, but not nano skills. (higher the nano ql is the higher the benefit is, and same for the penalty)
" A trader uses Divest Attack Skills and successfully drains 204 attack skills from the opponent. Trader loses 180 from his current nanos skills for a duration of 3 minutes while gains a benefit of 204 to all his attack skills. The opponent loses 204 points from his attack skills for a duration of 3 minutes while gainst 120 to his nanos skills."
Plunders could have been their nano skill drains with a penalty to trader's attack skills. While the opponent would suffer a penalty to their nano skills, but not on their attack skills. (higher the nano ql is the higher the benefit is, and same for the penalty)
AC debuffs, should work as they are, but with a slight penalty to traders evade skills. etc., but again penalty should not be greater the benefit in a long run.
Given the current game dynamics and how the traders would indeed be exchangers instead of vampires they are currently. Nano lines as this would make the whole profession slightly more complex and interesting to play with. At the moment, they are indeed Skill Vampires instead of Traders.
Last edited by North; Sep 13th, 2002 at 18:58:44.
Gailyn, level 200 NT, Rimor.
Feel free to check my post history (suggestion from Aaronb, since he seems to think that everything I say is wrong (mostly because I do not agree that this game should have only few uber professions, but 12 more or less balanced professions based on their individual strenghts))
The only problem with this is those nano changes would carry over to the npc's. As a lv 80ish trader I can tell you I need all the deprive/ransacks I can get on a npc in order to kill it. Almost every trader I know has a OE'd shotgun to make up for the low normal damage they do, so I absolutly need those running to get my attack ratings up. Sure shotty's have a nice crit but thats a pretty random thing even with crit scopes. Maybe I am playing my trader wrong and I am sure I will be told if I am.Originally posted by Sidhelin
Lohem! All of my respect is yours. You want to give some plus your proffession. I think there are two ways. The first one(maybe it looks the be the easier way) nerf the ******* prof. The second is tmaybe a harder way, give some love to the soldier, like this. The TMS able to resist in 75% the plunder/divest(and the other debuff nanos) nano line and also reduce the effect of the plunder/divest with 75%.(~-67 instead of ~-450). Or give the Nt's a Nano Resist line.
Is this so hard Lohem, North and the other? Is it possible the skip the traders from this whining/nerfing/i'm a gimp "game"?
One day the FC will get tired of this "I'm a gimp". So the soldiers are gimps, we need a quick response. NERF THE TRADERS!!!
You want this Lohem, North etc??? I think you don't want. But if u yelling more and more, then the nerf will be comes true.
And that day i'll hit the cancel account button...
Funcom needs to figure out a way of seperating PVP from the rest of the game, so they don't nerf the normal game play trying to fix PVP, maybe they should come out with a pvp module that you can only pvp with it on and that modules nerfs what ever profession a certain way so that all professions will be equal. As it is now we see nerf after nerf for PVP and its having a very negative effects on the non pvp part of the game.
~aqua
Last edited by Aqua; Sep 13th, 2002 at 19:01:23.
Originally posted by North
3. Remove divest/plunder from PvP completely make them PvM only or make them 50% effective in PvP, like damage is. Much like Loham suggested. Traders would still be a formidable force in PvP. Probably still the best suited profession for it, with only one difference they would have to use other debuffs instead - (AC debuffs, Health Funnels, roots etc).
Sorry to be rude, but I've never read a such stupid affirmation, despite I quite agree some other parts of your post.
Tell me how a trader will be a formidable force in PvP without his drains ?
Try it, reroll a trader and go pvp without using debuffs. Yes you could root your oppponent and run away, but that's the only thing you could do.
AC debuffs ? Health Funnels ? sorry but you don't know what you are talking about, they are useless in both pvp and pvm.
Health funnels can be countered, your opponent needs to be close to you cuz of range, nano cost is twice higher than single heals, they really are a crappy nano-line.
As you know (or should know) AC is not really usefull in AO, while HP/evades/high attack rating are what count. AC debuffs are just a waste of time/nano/ncu/IP.
Sidhelin, I was hoping we could avoid this kind of posting.
The fact is that there is one huge imbalance problem in this game atm, and it revolves around your profession. Instead of changing every profession to become even close to your abilities in PvP at the moment is an enormous task. This could take over year, perhaps even more.
The easiest thing at the moment is to fix the known problem from trader's nano line. And in my opinion it should be done in away that it would not effect your PvM at all, only PvP where the problem at the moment exists.
This is PvP forum, we are supposed to discuss balance issues here, however, we are not discussing balance issues regarding the PvM. Like many of you seem to think at the moment.
And no, I would not like professions to be changed, but its hardly our problem that FC has allowed such a huge imbalance to get in to this game. Sorry that it has to be traders this time around. It has been done to my profession twice before.
Kromoz, that was the third suggestion (compilation from some harsh suggestions), and it was supposed to be hardest, I understand your points. And agree that it would be a harsh way to do it.
Last edited by North; Sep 13th, 2002 at 19:32:11.
Gailyn, level 200 NT, Rimor.
Feel free to check my post history (suggestion from Aaronb, since he seems to think that everything I say is wrong (mostly because I do not agree that this game should have only few uber professions, but 12 more or less balanced professions based on their individual strenghts))
Funny how you call them "drains" and not "trades"... And I'm still happy to harp on the fact that traders shouldn't be formidable in PvP.Originally posted by Kromoz
Tell me how a trader will be a formidable force in PvP without his drains ?
Agreed.Originally posted by North
The fact is that there is one huge imbalance problem in this game atm, and it revolves around your profession. Instead of changing every profession to become even close to your abilities in PvP at the moment is an enormous task. This could take over year, perhaps even more.
Groundeffect (RK2)
ok first of
1. Traders TRADE skills... He gives the other less skills and himself more, TRADE em over to himself! Trader... OK? thats the term and the word that should be used. Stop arguing about it.
2. In pvm Drains work as followed... The pump your skills up but doesnt affect mobs no. =p (atleast not High lvl mobs)
3. in pvp drains are traders only weapon of defence so still there is something else that must be done. =p
RK1 - Hajk - Solitus - Lvl 217/DR 16 - Nanotech - Apocalypse
---
Explorer 60% / Socializer 53% / Killer 46% / Achiever 40%
Sigh.Originally posted by Hajkster
He gives the other less skills and himself more, TRADE em over to himself! Trader... OK?
Groundeffect (RK2)
Originally posted by Sidhelin
Lohem! All of my respect is yours. You want to give some plus your proffession. I think there are two ways. The first one(maybe it looks the be the easier way) nerf the ******* prof. The second is tmaybe a harder way, give some love to the soldier, like this. The TMS able to resist in 75% the plunder/divest(and the other debuff nanos) nano line and also reduce the effect of the plunder/divest with 75%.(~-67 instead of ~-450). Or give the Nt's a Nano Resist line.
Is this so hard Lohem, North and the other? Is it possible the skip the traders from this whining/nerfing/i'm a gimp "game"?
One day the FC will get tired of this "I'm a gimp". So the soldiers are gimps, we need a quick response. NERF THE TRADERS!!!
You want this Lohem, North etc??? I think you don't want. But if u yelling more and more, then the nerf will be comes true.
And that day i'll hit the cancel account button...
please cancel, and Funcom Please stop the stackable deprive plunders. Make only 1 or 2 work
they are, learn the gameOriginally posted by Cudus
Once again Lohem shows his lack of knowledge by claiming mobs damage output and casting abilities is affected by trader drains.
Lohem and His Nerf Trader campaign...
Two sisters practicing medicine on Rubika and Shadowlands Pomy and Julka.
As a doctor i would prescribe you to use some common sense and a vacation to Real Life"
If i ever start a new character in Eve i will choose a name something like "aieerjjnnvajjnasdio11e3".
IS on Lohems bandwagonOriginally posted by Julia
FIx traders, nerf the rest of the game
SS
I think the main complaints about the trader drain nanos are the following:
The results of this setup are basically the following:
- There are two lines of skill drains that stack.
- Neither line is resistable on a reliable, or even consistent, basis.
- NanoC init, full agg, and a recompiler will allow both to be insta-cast.
- Each line significantly reduces all the victim's weapon and nano skills.
- Each line significantly raises all the caster's weapon and nano skills.
1. The victim is now fighting as if they were approximately one-half to one-third of their actual level; the addition of the OE rules means that they are also fighting as if they were using a weapon of much lower QL.
2. The trader is now fighting as if they were 125% to 150% higher than their actual level, including the full use of a weapon of much higher QL.
In a single sentence, the complaint about trader drains is that the drains provide the caster with a great advantage while also inflicting an incredible disadvantage on the victim both at the same time. To put it on a bumper sticker: Drains Do It All.
Last edited by Jynne; Sep 13th, 2002 at 21:14:24.
Taren "Jynne" Suitt, Level 216/16 Eternalist
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Iron Law of Exploits: If it can be exploited, it will be exploited. However a rule is exploitable, the exploits become the rule.
So you use a weapon that has high requirements and trader drains make you oe'd? Get a nova, get a couple different lvls of novas. Get a hacked root symbio... cast it on the trader... and run your little whinney ass away because the truth of the matter is traders are soldier-killers, its always been the case. Now lots of other classes can trounce soldiers but when a trader roots you - drains you - heals to full hp than waltzes in to drop you in a matter of 5 shots or less there's a much stronger sense of violation.
Soldiers think traders should be nerfed and traders dont think so. Your 74 trader is irrelevent to the world of high lvl pvp. Truth is that traders have a much better understanding of traders and soldiers know more about how to press 1,2,3,4. The arrogance required to suggest fixes for another profession astounds me. Get over yourself - you soldiers have no idea of what a trader does in pvp.
Call for lower requirements on the CHS.
Ask for more soldier weapons.
Beg to have TMS up nano resistance.
Get burst un-nerfed so it can actually do some good dmg again.
Leave trader issues to traders and worry about your own gimpy self.
As stated in my post in the trader forum (this is where i'd insert the link if i knew how) i think that we should look at the effect of drains in general. In pvp theyre overpowering for some classes and in pvm theyre as pointless as the rest of our nanos. Halving the hostile portion of a drain durring a pvp fight would make more sense than anything i've heard a soldier come up with. But then as a soldier why would you be expected to know ANYthing about traders?
What do you call High level, I am a lv 82 and from 30 to where I am now I have never seen a mob hit less after a deprive or ransack is landed. It might be lower but below 30 I wasn't really paying attention. I would love it if it did work, possible I wouldn't be so bad off solo, but it doesn't. Just cause it says so in the nano description doesn't mean its fact........Originally posted by Lohem
Yes they do. When you drain a mob, they hit for less, nano NPCs nuke for less, Trader NPCs drain for less ect... At higher levels it doesn't seem like they hit for less because player AC is so high that they hit minimum damage before drain... and after drain they are still hitting high enough to still hit you for minimum damage.
Comments?
~aqua
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