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Thread: Traders and PvP

  1. #1

    Traders and PvP

    Obviously the original thread got out of hand. But because I believe it is an important issue, I would like to start over and have a decent discussion about it.

    To start, I love AO, It's the only game i've been playing since 07/22/2001. I've played others since then but always end up wanting to play AO again. I've played other MMPORPGs but I'm not impressed yet.

    Neocron is dreadful and Asherons Call looks nice but gameplay is missing something to me... I always enjoy my time playing AO and the people I get to hang out with.

    That said, there are just somethings that I feel are not right. I am not the only person that feels this way, nor is soldier the only profession.

    Many professions have had adjustments to further balance the game for everyone. I thought that traders were unbalanced before, and it bothered me. I made my own trader to see for myself and leveled to 74 (PvP twink - who hasn't made a trader PvP twink?) So I have seen first hand, both sides.

    It is not the traders fault, but everytime something is adjusted in the game, something else goes. The trader heal nerf came the same time that the OE patch came.

    I thought for sure that I would be gimped in PvP with my trader then... that was not so, I was even more powerful... At level 74 I was able to get off two drains, one plunder and one divest which would OE my opponents but at the same time make my QL 190 Windchaser usable at 100%. I didn't even need heals in PvP because my opponent could almost never hit me... My evades after the drains were nearly twice thier debuffed attack.

    Some high level traders will say that I should have leveled my trader to 175+ to know anything about traders. I have knowledge of high level traders from dueling them with my soldier level 167.

    The two highest drains add to 450~ which cuts Everyones attack at that level by nearly half.... I know a level 196 doctor who is forced to use QL 60 heals when she is debuffed by a trader fully. As for a soldier I have a lower quick bar and i'm forced to use TMS 4 which lasts like 30 seconds or something and shuts down my nano for two minutes.

    I've said maybe make Only the Skill Drains (divest/plunder) NPC/MOB only. And:
    1. Give Traders Shotgun Mastery or
    2. Some kind of AR buff or
    3. Increase the duration of the Drain bonus so that they have sufficient time to get to Arena/Political zone and still have time on buff.... Maybe 15 minutes instead of 3 ?

    This way Traders would still recieve benifits from their nano lines but it would not be so much of an unfair advantage to the rest of the gaming community.


    Please post all constructive comments to the very important issue. I will try not to offend any Traders out there, but please try to look past all the haze and see the big picture.

    Thanks, Lohem

  2. #2
    ye s now you all know what the nt community has been saying for 14 months now

    get used the feeling of helplessness

    at least when u get oe'd you can still attack when a nt get oe'd we cant cast nothing
    "death comes slowly to those who anticipate it and swiftly to the unconcerned" Richard Pyott

    You want a duel?.......Go play chess
    You want honor?......Go serve your country in the military

    First pistol crat to reach Chief.

    Proud follower of the Mexican Hat Band Cult.

  3. #3
    Actually Besheba,

    When i get drained -450 points it puts my CHS at 25%... my attack rating goes down to about 450 from 932.

    At this point the Trader has about 900+ evades, twice my attack rating.

    This is the point where you get text flood:

    "You tried to hit Traderkickingyourbehind but missed". You will never hit a person who has twice the evades as your attack.

    At the same time, guess what the same trader is doing to you with 1300+ Attack Rating against your 800~ evades?

    So the truth is that neither one of us can attack after full drains.. Only MA can really continue to do some kind of damage.. because he still has 400-500 MA skill and MA does not OE. Also you would survive longer.. just keep your newbie root on top, at least you probably have a better chance of getting away LOL... but i still feel for you.

    On a side note: I just had the best duel. I fought Irrelavant a level 180 NanoTech on RK2 in Tir Arena. He tanked my TMS even though he didn't have to... he got Nullity up twice and the first time i was sure that i was going to die quick.. but then i started doing damage and it's a good thing i saved my specials..... when he put Nullity up again I knew I was gone but I think i got him down to around 10%..... What a rush, Thanks Irellavent

  4. #4
    Originally posted by besheba
    ye s now you all know what the nt community has been saying for 14 months now

    get used the feeling of helplessness

    at least when u get oe'd you can still attack when a nt get oe'd we cant cast nothing
    I dont rember many traders pvping back in full damage days and NT were very very good back there.
    I think we are looking at 10 month of whine here
    Two sisters practicing medicine on Rubika and Shadowlands Pomy and Julka.

    As a doctor i would prescribe you to use some common sense and a vacation to Real Life"

    If i ever start a new character in Eve i will choose a name something like "aieerjjnnvajjnasdio11e3".

  5. #5

    Re: Traders and PvP

    Originally posted by Lohem
    Obviously the original thread got out of hand. But because I believe it is an important issue, I would like to start over and have a decent discussion about it.
    It's more of a proffesion issue then a Pvp issue to be honest even if it relate to pvp... it would be better of in the trader forum.

    Oh and i still have to tell about that deprives is Traders main gun.
    RK1 - Hajk - Solitus - Lvl 217/DR 16 - Nanotech - Apocalypse
    ---
    Explorer 60% / Socializer 53% / Killer 46% / Achiever 40%

  6. #6

    Re: Re: Traders and PvP

    Originally posted by Hajkster


    It's more of a proffesion issue then a Pvp issue to be honest even if it relate to pvp... it would be better of in the trader forum.

    I think it belongs in both actually... in the PvP forums to get the thoughts of those that actually pvp... AND the Trader forums so traders can post ideas/suggestions to ways to modify(NOT NERF) the nano line...
    Mizrach

    Ex-Coven Master of Dark Covenant(RK2)

    Thanks for the good times all...

  7. #7
    Originally posted by Lohem
    Actually Besheba,

    When i get drained -450 points it puts my CHS at 25%... my attack rating goes down to about 450 from 932.

    At this point the Trader has about 900+ evades, twice my attack rating.

    This is the point where you get text flood:

    "You tried to hit Traderkickingyourbehind but missed". You will never hit a person who has twice the evades as your attack.

    At the same time, guess what the same trader is doing to you with 1300+ Attack Rating against your 800~ evades?

    So the truth is that neither one of us can attack after full drains.. Only MA can really continue to do some kind of damage.. because he still has 400-500 MA skill and MA does not OE. Also you would survive longer.. just keep your newbie root on top, at least you probably have a better chance of getting away LOL... but i still feel for you.
    yes, thats correct, my fists wont overequip, tho still, i will get spammed in a similar way since i also get a huge decrease in ATR, and fists like a lvl 50 MA (havent seen those beat a lvl 170-180 trader yet .. and also i have to be in a range of 2 m from the guy to be able to hit him, and this guy has roots.. and im so gimped down in the nano department that i only can heal for like 200-300 or something.. and i dont have a soldier tms sheild protecting me or enf/doc massive hp (tho there are profs that has it even worse against a trader ) .. so guess what, im gonna run like i never ran before, like all the rest of us

    /Z

    edit: tho it must suck to be a trader in mass pvp, since everyone is so anoyed by yer presence that they all try to kill you first
    Last edited by Znails; Sep 13th, 2002 at 08:35:06.
    Znails

  8. #8
    Originally posted by Znaily


    yes, thats correct, my fists wont overequip, tho still, i will get spammed in a similar way since i also get a huge decrease in ATR, and fists like a lvl 50 MA (havent seen those beat a lvl 170-180 trader yet .. and also i have to be in a range of 2 m from the guy to be able to hit him, and this guy has roots.. and im so gimped down in the nano department that i only can heal for like 200-300 or something.. and i dont have a soldier tms sheild protecting me or enf/doc massive hp (tho there are profs that has it even worse against a trader ) .. so guess what, im gonna run like i never ran before, like all the rest of us

    /Z

    edit: tho it must suck to be a trader in mass pvp, since everyone is so anoyed by yer presence that they all try to kill you first
    Actually, unless we're buffed out of our ass, we're an easy pray for MAs...

  9. #9
    Lohem! All of my respect is yours. You want to give some plus your proffession. I think there are two ways. The first one(maybe it looks the be the easier way) nerf the ******* prof. The second is tmaybe a harder way, give some love to the soldier, like this. The TMS able to resist in 75% the plunder/divest(and the other debuff nanos) nano line and also reduce the effect of the plunder/divest with 75%.(~-67 instead of ~-450). Or give the Nt's a Nano Resist line.

    Is this so hard Lohem, North and the other? Is it possible the skip the traders from this whining/nerfing/i'm a gimp "game"?

    One day the FC will get tired of this "I'm a gimp". So the soldiers are gimps, we need a quick response. NERF THE TRADERS!!!

    You want this Lohem, North etc??? I think you don't want. But if u yelling more and more, then the nerf will be comes true.

    And that day i'll hit the cancel account button...
    100% Pure Gimp™!!!
    Eunike, a level 206 Trader,
    Machiaveli - a level 215 Bureaucrat(Teh Fun!!!)

    Member of the Alpha Omega
    -- Currle:..all there well be too do is sit in the sun and Drink way too much Beer.

  10. #10
    Originally posted by Rznr


    Actually, unless we're buffed out of our ass, we're an easy pray for MAs...
    oh.. well im to scared of ya to try

    /Z

    ps. oh, just for the record, no i dont want a trader nerf, they are anoying as hell but a vital part of the game, would be very boring imho without them, they are the F in fear
    Znails

  11. #11
    Originally posted by Znaily


    oh.. well im to scared of ya to try

    /Z

    ps. oh, just for the record, no i dont want a trader nerf, they are anoying as hell but a vital part of the game, would be very boring imho without them, they are the F in fear
    Aimed, fling, brawl, crit, shen, crit, dimach, dead trader

  12. #12
    It's bad enough calling for nerfs,
    It's worse calling for nerfs because of pvp,
    And it's ****ing terrible calling for nerfs because of your experiences of the class in pvp at level 74!!

    wtf.


    Since NR got adjusted to actually work the 190% resist line of trader debuffs are next to useless. A nano with a 5+ sec recharge that You need to cast an average of 5 times to have it land on anyone over 150 that has a clue.. pvp fights dont last that long, there's no way a trader could chain cast enough plunders to get it to stick without having to stop to heal in between, which means that the average amout I can debuff you in a fight is like 158, I'm 172 and I can't cast the highest divest straight off, not even close.. the highest divest, the one that all the traderhaters always quote as being the standard 'and you can debuff me by: xxx !!!' needs 827 in nano skills in order to cast that I need to land the lower divest and then the miracle of landing the lower plunder, then if miraculously the plunder lands first time, and i'm not fighting a debuffing class, MP, doc NT etc atleast 10 seconds has elapsed, I have not had a chance to heal yet, so i have to heal (+869 -229 = 640 heal) then 3 sec recharge (since the nerf that is the best trader heal) do you think I've only had 640 damage done to me in 13 seconds of pvp? (keep in mind that this is a perfect pvp fight, all my nanos have landed, i haven't fumbled, i have managed to cast all nanos exactly as they were availible) .. ok now we are in the state that you quote _every_ time someone talks about uber traders in pvp, the only pvp fights that I've ever had that have lasted this long have been against docs and fixers, but if it was against a doc then those nanos took a day to cast so we're more like 20 seconds into the fight now, from this point, if I have more than about 1000 hp left I'm lucky and I'll probably win, chances are I'm dead or I'm so close to dead that I have to spend the rest of the fight chain healing my pathetic +640's untill I die. I haven't had a chance to cast the highest set of debuffs yet currently you're hit with ql 130ish debuffs for about -320
    And like i said, at this point if i'm still alive i have a decent chance at winning, but you'll nolonger be here, if you're a fixer you gridded, if you're anyone else you just plain ran away, I can't do the damage to kill you straight out I haven't alowed time for roots, so you can run.. and keep in mind that from my point of view, this was a PERFECT pvp fight, everything worked..

    it never does.

    190% resist is terrible on mobs but impossible against players 150+, I think most of the trader hate is left over from when people were newbies and had no NR, or from people that don't know how well NR works now and haven't invested in it.
    _that_ was the real trader nerf, and that's why I think (and hope)the devs will not directly nerf traders again..

    one last thing .. reflect.

    not that I ever have more than +48% (only in projectile, only with rrfe running) but remeber that as of next wednesday the max, if you are 190+ and have rrfe running will be 37%, pure combat classes with no healing but a lot of hp will get a big buff out of this, lil traders with sod all hp will be worse off (again, for the 3rd patch in a row)

    Don't call for nerfs against anyone, it makes you look like an ass.
    --Rookie Teh "Wobble" Sux----------------------- AKA-----------------------Pirate "Ninjapirate" Dog--
    -+Legion+-
    WTB ATI T&L fix, h8 D3D.

  13. #13
    Originally posted by Rznr


    Aimed, fling, brawl, crit, shen, crit, dimach, dead trader
    Bleh, Aaronli did that to me a couple days ago, died in 5 sec max
    NERF MA's!! No just kidding
    Cudus :: eqp

    PvP....It's not just a job, it's an adventure!

  14. #14
    i am a NT and i dont want a Drain nerf

    yes traders are good in pvp.. but what do they have more then ther drains? NOTHING!!!!

    if we nerf ther drains they will be nothing.. they dont have any good heals (they nerft them) and ther weapon skills isent uber.

    so a trader whit nerft drains would be the new gimp prof nr 1

    i fight traders and they are not hard to outdamage if you resist the drain.
    so if u are fighting a trader and they land a drain on you RUN!!, and if you resist it Kill him/her


    so dont aske for a total Trader Nerf becous it sux. look att the Trader profession and tell me what they have left if you remove ther drains, the only thing i c is a Gimpt AC drain.

    and to all you NTs in this thread: nerfing drains is like when they nerf the range on the nukes, and made damage 50% in pvp.. they would suck 100% more then we have ever done.

    do you realy want them to feel the way we did afther thos nerfs?
    w00p w00p!!

  15. #15
    Originally posted by Womble
    It's bad enough calling for nerfs,
    It's worse calling for nerfs because of pvp,
    And it's ****ing terrible calling for nerfs because of your experiences of the class in pvp at level 74!!
    This "adjustment" would not effect PvM. It's not of my expereinces with traders at level 74, I have experiences with traders from both sides of the glass... the trader side up to level 74 and 10 out of the 12 professions from Title 1 though Title 5.

    Having Divests/Plunders effect NPC/MOB only will be a nerf in PvM how?

    I've also suggested to give Traders:

    1. Shotgun Mastery +70, or
    2. Attack Rating Buff +70, or
    3. Increase the Duration of the Drain Bonus, 15mins instead of 3

    This still gives you the benifits, but doesn't drain your opponent in PvP to where he/she can't even defend themselves. Dropping EVERY player (not just soldiers) to half AR when you have double atleast evades, so they can't hit you - Making Nano professions use Title 2 (QL 50-60) nanos When they are level 150+......... This is fair to you? It's not just against Soldiers.

    Soldiers have taken many hits over the past 14 months.... all for the improvement of the overall gaming community. TMS 100% reflect, Burst, Alpha, 50% damage.. all nerfs to soldiers (50% damage only one not specific towards alpha.

    I'm not calling for a nerf... This is obviously not the way the PvP game was intended to be played.


    Originally posted by Tolbat
    i am a NT and i dont want a Drain nerf

    yes traders are good in pvp.. but what do they have more then ther drains? NOTHING!!!!

    if we nerf ther drains they will be nothing.. they dont have any good heals (they nerft them) and ther weapon skills isent uber.

    so a trader whit nerft drains would be the new gimp prof nr 1

    i fight traders and they are not hard to outdamage if you resist the drain.
    so if u are fighting a trader and they land a drain on you RUN!!, and if you resist it Kill him/her


    so dont aske for a total Trader Nerf becous it sux. look att the Trader profession and tell me what they have left if you remove ther drains, the only thing i c is a Gimpt AC drain.
    On thing about nano resist: I'm a soldier, your a NT..... you have green Nano Resist, I have a darker blue than the night sky. You may not have clusters that interfere... I do. I've maxed my Nano Resist and for Title 5 soldier without implants its right around 600.... I've never resisted a Drain yet or a root for that matter, roots just seem not to last as long.

    So, I'm supposed to take out my shining 200 Matt Crea Cluster which is what allows me to cast TMS IX.. drop down to about a TMS VII all so that I can reisist one out of 15-20 drains from ONE profession... all the time spending 500k ++ IP for something that i almost never work?

    I know the range nerf hurt NTs, I love NTs and played one up until that nerf... NanoFreQ, one of the original Progenitors on RK2. But when you think about it, it was neccissary.. You could root from a mile away and blast away, nuke, nuke root, nuke, nuke root... and it was being heavily exploited with the Plants for exp.

    All professions have taken hits.. not just Nts, not just soldier and not just Traders

  16. #16
    Lohem,

    Most nay-sayers simply read the first sentances of what you write and then go on from there. And, all of them are traders.

    Perhaps the period of time that the drains last could be shortened...or have one of the drains be pvm only so you couldn't get double hit with them to the point of uselessness. or, have something similar to the advent buffs, where you can use it...get the bonus for a short period of time...and then can't use it again for 3 mins.

    I still think that there is something inherently wrong where you take a professional soldier and put him up against a professional merchant of equal level, attack rating, armor class, etc. and the soldier will die every time unless the trader goes link dead.

  17. #17
    Originally posted by Lohem
    Having Divests/Plunders effect NPC/MOB only will be a nerf in PvM how?
    They dont effect mobs, the line of nanos is supposed to take skills from something and give it to traders, removing skills from mobs makes 0 difference, so you want to take 1/2 of our class defining nano away by remving it's effects from players too? (hmm, bit like the TMS nerf eh?)

    Originally posted by Lohem

    I've also suggested to give Traders:

    1. Shotgun Mastery +70, or
    2. Attack Rating Buff +70, or
    3. Increase the Duration of the Drain Bonus, 15mins instead of 3
    1. Not all traders use shotgun, this would be useless for the rest of us because the one weapon we have a slight advantage in got nerfed by removing crit buffs because everyone else was using it too.
    2. Why would we want an attack rating +70 when we have an attack rating+ 300ish?
    3. Makes sense, but that would be deemed as giving the trader love and would be to politically incorrect for FC to even consider. Even though it would serve as no realistic benefit to us on a per fight basis.

    Originally posted by Lohem

    This still gives you the benifits, but doesn't drain your opponent in PvP to where he/she can't even defend themselves. Dropping EVERY player (not just soldiers) to half AR when you have double atleast evades, so they can't hit you - Making Nano professions use Title 2 (QL 50-60) nanos When they are level 150+......... This is fair to you? It's not just against Soldiers.
    you make it sound like we just push a button and bang -400 to your skills, it takes a lot of time and luck to land both debuffs now, and then it takes another 2 to max out to the amount always quoted as being drained in every combat with a trader.
    The only thing traders have going is the trading of skills, our heals do sod all, and you are calling for a nerf, call it somethign else if you want, but that's essentialy what you are askign for, ask for solds to be buffed if you want, I notice a lot of new sold only weps and armours in the new patch DB, looks like the start of some love.
    --Rookie Teh "Wobble" Sux----------------------- AKA-----------------------Pirate "Ninjapirate" Dog--
    -+Legion+-
    WTB ATI T&L fix, h8 D3D.

  18. #18
    Originally posted by Borrace

    I still think that there is something inherently wrong where you take a professional soldier and put him up against a professional merchant of equal level, attack rating, armor class, etc. and the soldier will die every time unless the trader goes link dead.
    /me bangs head against table

    traders are not merchants, traders trade in skills, nano, armour and health between themselves their party and their target. That is where the TRADE in traders comes from.

    repeat after me:
    traders are not merchants
    traders are not merchants
    traders are not merchants
    traders are not merchants
    --Rookie Teh "Wobble" Sux----------------------- AKA-----------------------Pirate "Ninjapirate" Dog--
    -+Legion+-
    WTB ATI T&L fix, h8 D3D.

  19. #19
    Originally posted by Womble
    They dont effect mobs, the line of nanos is supposed to take skills from something and give it to traders, removing skills from mobs makes 0 difference
    Yes they do. When you drain a mob, they hit for less, nano NPCs nuke for less, Trader NPCs drain for less ect... At higher levels it doesn't seem like they hit for less because player AC is so high that they hit minimum damage before drain... and after drain they are still hitting high enough to still hit you for minimum damage.

    1. Not all traders use shotgun, this would be useless for the rest of us because the one weapon we have a slight advantage in got nerfed by removing crit buffs because everyone else was using it too.
    9 out of 10 traders use shotguns because you'll have 1300+ attack against 800 evades and with scope will still crit a lot even without old ma crit buffs. but this is why I put Number two:

    2. Why would we want an attack rating +70 when we have an attack rating+ 300ish?
    EXACTLY, thanks whomble... you buff your attack rating by 300+ and debuff ours by 450~ Giving a 750+ Attack rating difference... this has to be changed.

    3. Makes sense, but that would be deemed as giving the trader love and would be to politically incorrect for FC to even consider. Even though it would serve as no realistic benefit to us on a per fight basis.
    BINGO, we're getting somewhere. I don't think it would be deemed as giving traders love, it would be more of a balance that what is currently in existence. If you were able to drain a mob and have drain bonus for 15 mins~ then go to a arena and not be able to divest/plunder a player but yet still have your 300 bonus: You would still have an advantage by having 300 more attack and 300 to all nano skills, .... but at least the opponnt would have a chance because he wouldn't have -450 to all skills.

    Is this more acceptable than the first two ? Is this something we should work for?

    you make it sound like we just push a button and bang -400 to your skills, it takes a lot of time and luck to land both debuffs now, and then it takes another 2 to max out to the amount always quoted as being drained in every combat with a trader.


    I am fully drained in a matter of seconds.. At my level Drains are INSTA cast.. .and i have never resisted a drain even when i had Title maxed Nano resist of 600~ for a atrox soldier level 167.. NEVER resisted one on extensive testing... the time it takes to drain two at my level or higher: 5 secs~ Luck: none, it's guarenteed on me unless you have 1k NR and full defense.

    The only thing traders have going is the trading of skills, our heals do sod all, and you are calling for a nerf, call it somethign else if you want, but that's essentialy what you are askign for, ask for solds to be buffed if you want, I notice a lot of new sold only weps and armours in the new patch DB, looks like the start of some love.


    No, i'm not calling it a nerf... you may feel it as a nerf but this is not the way the game was ever intended to be played. New soldier weapons? :: you can give me the best most uber gun in the world, but i doesn't help if i can't use it. If i'm drained 450~ doesn't matter what gun i have.

    BUT..................

    You had some positive outlook in your post.. i appreciate your honesty.

    If Skill Drains (divest/plunder lines) where made Mob/NPC only, This would not effect the PvM game AT ALL. Then Make the Drain Bonus Duration 15 minutes instead of 3 minutes. This way the trader gets all the bonuses to his skills that he would usually get... Uber 300+ Attack Rating and 300+ bonus to nano skills, BUT the opponent in PvP would not get -450~ to all Weapon and Nano Skills.

    This would still give an obvious advantage to traders.. but also make it possible for every other profession to stand toe-to-toe and not mean a guaranteed death for the opponent.

    Comments?

  20. #20
    Originally posted by Lohem


    Making Nano professions use Title 2 (QL 50-60) nanos When they are level 150+......... This is fair to you? It's not just against Soldiers.


    A MP with nano-shutdown can totaly screw my nano-skills, if it happens I just have to run like you do if a trader debuff you ... It's not just against Traders.

    Is it fair to me ? yes

    Do I ask to nerf MP ? no

    Do I ask a fix about it ? no either



    Soldiers can TMS, zone, and alpha me to death, and in mass pvp traders are always the first killed with docs.
    We can't do huge alpha and kill an opponent in 5 sec like soldiers or MAs can.
    In fact in mass pvp I die more often than soldiers do, and soldiers kill a lot more people than me.

    Is it fair to me ? yes

    Do I ask to nerf soldiers ? no

    Do I ask a fix about it ? no either

    Yes we are very good in 1vs1 fights, but heh noone accept to duel a trader except enforcers, so don't duel us and be happy.



    Your real problem seems to be the gimpness of soldiers, and the fact that soldiers have been nerfed many times. (I could quote you, you're complaining about it in quite all your posts, I'm just too lazzy to do it heh)

    Once again DO NOT ASK FOR NERFS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    ASK FIX FOR YOUR PROFESSION !!!!!!!!!!
    neophyte Kromoz 200 gimp

    yes traders eat babies

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