those blacks

[ntrox1]

Woah, lots to catch up on!

Firstly, hobbes: No, I am not criticising you, my post was intended as a feedback of my personal feelings on this subject. One thing I do vehemently believe in is everyone is entitled to their opinion. You have yours, and I will never criticise you nor your beliefs. Those views that I posted are, as far as I am concerned, mine alone. If someone agrees with me (Hisokai) then thats fair enough.

"I think the term "Atheism" carries a negative connotation, one who will deny the existence of Noah and the Ark, just a vehemently as another will attest to it."

"How can one deny (to declare untrue) the existence of God without proof?". Well, I believe nothing without seeing it for myself. You could misconstrue this to something like the Pyramids or the Acropolis, but I have seen the Pyramids on TV, and the Acropolis in person. Grey areas such as religion and ghosts are not worth believing as there is no proof either way. I think one is more foolish to believe in something without proof than to not believe in it without proof. Simply, if it is not scientifically proven, I do not believe in it. You can, and thats fine with me.

"On what evidence did you rely when you declared that no God exists. Seems to me that you would have to rely on faith to do this, just as a Christian would rely on faith to follow his religion." Nope, I do not need faith to refuse to believe in something that is not concrete. I have no faith. Where others have faith I have a void. There is no room for faith as I have no belief, as deitys do not exist. This is MY opinion, and mine alone. I never ever consider that perhaps there may be a god. I never read bibles, I never pretend to pray at funerals. I show respect when it is due, in order to make others feel comfortable in my heathen presence, but I never willingly partake in religion.

"No true Athiest would admit to the possibity that any God could come down on his chariot." This was an example. I still do not believe in the existence of any deity.

"If he does come down in the chariot, this Agnostic is convinced and plans to get on board, I'll try to save you a seat." I'll take this as YOU will believe (*this* Athiest). I still won't acknowledge a god.

Lilnymph: I just noticed your post (sneaky!) so this appears to be answering your comments, but in truth this post was being written before reading your post. In answer to your comment on "proof" in the bible, I think thats rubbish. Just because it is in a book proves nothing. A flaming bush that talks just won't cut it with me. I read fantasy books, and they are no more proof of existence of characters than the bible. I'd be interested to hear your comments on the Koran. How does this compare? I am not religiously educated, so cannot comment.

For all to comment: "Jesus is God". Er.. if he did exist (I think not personally) then why is he God? he was supposed to be SON of God. Make up your minds!

Lilnymph: I ironically do believe in the underlying principles of religion. I live my life that way, as in be nice to others, don't screw your neighbours wife etc..

Oh, and big Atrox hugs to Lilnymph

[lilnymph]

Ntorx, You missed the point of my argument about the bible (Probably becase I explained it in a stupid way). The Bible is here, and it is evidence whether you like it or not, and just saying it is a work of fantasy isn't very scientific, and IS ignoring evidence that you can see with your eyes. Why you ask? Look at how many people there are in organised religions at the moment, Billions. Originally these religions where formed AROUND these "holy" books, and so the people where persuaded by the evidence in front of their eyes and in these books (remember, especially for the gospels and acts of hte apostles int he bible, the people who where reading the bible where alive when the events they where reading where taking place, so it would be possible for them to go and "check them out".

Also, Science takes just as much faith as religion. You have to trust what you are being told, as there is NO WAY you can prove, or understand most of modern science yourself in one lifetime.

As I have said, my own view is to take teh underlieing elements of religion and try to hold true to them, but I will always trust a scientific explanation more than I trust an explanation out of the bible.

hugs

lilnymph

[lilnymph]

Originally posted by Ntrox
For all to comment: "Jesus is God". Er.. if he did exist (I think not personally) then why is he God? he was supposed to be SON of God. Make up your minds!

just noticed this bit. It has been proved (from Roman Records) that a man from Judea was executed on a cross, in the way described in the bible (the times are right and things). I am not sure if they proved his name was jesus or not, but there are some independant verification for various parts of the bible.

hugs

lilnymph

[lilnymph]

grr, got to completly read something before I comment, as this is getting silly lol.

I am afraid I haven't read the Koran, so I am not sure about it, and am not able to comment on it.

Final Hugs, till someone else post

lilnymph

[AkodoReign]

Science. Wow what a load. Sure it exists and makes life better.. But they have not figured alot out yet.

Most of science today is theory. Not fact. Einstiens Theory of Relitivity was rewritten 2 times , once right before the atom bomb and once right after ("If I would have known, I would have become a watch maker").

A solar sail craft made with private funds launches Next april (Science said that would be impossible).

Science is a bunch of limitations and catagories we put on things as we identify them. Peroid.

Now for the other side of the rant..

Religion...

Do I believe in God , The answer is yes.

Do I believe in Evolution , Yes... Because we were created to adapt otherwise none of us would be alive today.


Do I believe in Orginized Religion , No... I believe you have to follow you're own path and your actions speak alot louder than going 1 or 2 days out of 7 to a place to praise God, then run your life like **** the rest.

[Karanya]

Hmm.. I guess I still qualify as a "true" atheist, whatever that may mean. I have a strong, personal belief that there is no God or any other deities, supreme being, or whatever you choose to call it.

Then again, I don't step on the toes of those who do, although it does *bother* me to a certain degree when I hear phrases such as "God bless you" when I sneeze, etc. This is one case where I argued the issue so long, and got so sick of debating it, to the point where I'd rather not have my beliefs challenged at all. And yeah, I refused to stand for the Pledge of Alliegiance in school.

But I've struck a deal with my religious friends. They don't say "God bless you" when I sneeze, and I won't reply with "There is no God" - because it saves the group of us from a debate none of us really want to have.

--K

[ntrox1]

Lilnymph: here is what I know about the bible, new and old testament: The old testament was basically a diary of a family, with family history, how life was lived, how one should live their lives. Nothing too religious in that. This was written some centuries before Jesus was supposed to have walked the earth. The new testament was written many years after Jesus supposedly walked the earth. Now, if Jesus was here today, I am sure everyone would be writing about him now. When he was reported to have been here, why did no-one else write about him? Why are the events written many years later? Even Christmas (which I do not celebrate btw), which celebrates the birth of Christ, is proven to be on the wrong day. IF Jesus was indeed born, he was born in February (if I remember correctly). Most of the dates are also incorrect. And yes, the most severe punishment of criminals was to be nailed to the cross, sometimes upside down. Normal criminals were just tied to the cross. This is not unique to Jesus.

Sorry, but the presence of a book and the writings within do not prove anything. Anyone can write stuff in a book and have it passed down through the generations to be taken up by a group of people looking for a comfort factor or controlling methodology called religion. In the end, that is what religion is. The bible exists. It is a book. Do you think I need to worship a being that has not been proven to exist in over 2000 years (and more as far as I am concerned) just because of the contents of a book that was written by someone over 2000 years ago, in a language I do not understand, that has been irrevocably changed in its translation and church interpretation of dogma? What the church wants you to see, they translate. The bible you know is not the one that was written, I can assure you.

First point to consider: the destruction of the army in Crete by god. Erm.. I was in Santorini recently (Greek island) and the volcano that is Santorini island now erupted at that time, causing a massive tidle wave that swept Crete some 200 miles away. This is not gods work, its a natural occurence.

Second point to consider: the timing of a comet that I cannot remember coincides with the heavenly star or whatever it is. Again, not a sign from any god, but an astrological body.

Final bit of ramble: in the old testament god was a vengeful being. In the new one he is forgiving. Quite a change don't you think? If god is all forgiving, why is it preached there is a hell? Would your god want you to burn in hell for eternity, if he is forgiving? I don't think thats a particularly forgiving god.

Anyway, keep it coming. This is an enjoyable discussion

(PS I'm a nice guy really, take none of this personally, especially if you are religious. I respect you and your beliefs, believe it or not!)

[ntrox1]

Karanya: I got past all that ages ago. I still say "My god!" or "Jesus wept!" sometimes. I have people say "Bless you" when I sneeze. It doesn't bother me, and you shouldn't take it personally. At the end of the day its just figurative speech and its part of our language. Just because you accept these phrases doesn't make you a heathen to your own beliefs or lack of them

Oh, and the reason why I am Athiest is similar to your comment. I was forced to recite the lords' prayer back in school and when I was (unfortunately) in the Cubs and later the Scouts. I thought it unfair that I had to do those things, and learning RE (Religious Education) at school made me squirm. I hated it, as they were not my beliefs, but the beliefs of others. Looking back now, I wish I had been more positive about learning about religions, as they would have served me well these last few years. Understanding the beliefs of others does them an honour and justice, it doesn't necessarily influence your own beliefs. If only they reworded the curriculum studies so that they were not stating facts, but accomodated the neutrality of non-believers and believers of others' faiths, it would be a vast improvement and aid in the study of religion.

[Karanya]

Oh, I'm still angry, that's for sure, so hopefully I'll get less irritated at it eventually although I'm not too sure of that, I've been an atheist for 15 years now.

That said - my atheism occured before I felt religion was being pushed on me from all around.. it was after I'd determined I truly believed that there is no God that I started noticing all that and it started grating on my nerves

I remember how angry I was about finding out jr. high school choir class required you to sing songs that were in praise of the christian God. Needless to say, I did not get involved in choir..

And it's not that I jump on strangers who say "God bless you" (just "bless you" doesn't bother me much, but down here in Texas, where I recently moved, they tend to tag the "God" on as well) - it's more that it privately annoys me. Probably the same way that some Christians are privately annoyed (or not so privately) when someone says the phrase "Jesus Christ!" in anger or disgust.

--K

[____________Dominata]

Originally posted by lilnymph


just noticed this bit. It has been proved (from Roman Records) that a man from Judea was executed on a cross, in the way described in the bible (the times are right and things). I am not sure if they proved his name was jesus or not, but there are some independant verification for various parts of the bible.

Crucifixion was common way to execute people in ancient times so I'm sure that a crucifixion actually took place.

The bible is a collection of stories written during a period of about 1600 years. It was written in three different languages and consists of sixtysix different books. Like every collection of stories and tales these have been passed on and changed by hearsay over the years before finally being written down.

Any person prepared to accept the bible as a fact for gods existence must also accept the koran and countless other scriptures that "proves" a gods existence in the same way, no? This has to be a conundrum for any religious person who actually reflects and discusses their faith with other non-believing people.

The koran and the bible actually have a lot of things in common, the two religions are remarkably alike if you look at the scriptures. The big differene between the muslim world and the christian world today is the amount of impact religion has in our respective societies and everyday lives.
The western world has more or less denounced the church in this modern age while several far east countries are still firmly in the grip of the church and its priests. They are at a point, from a religious pow, where the western world was several centuries ago. The church has more or less unlimited power and dictates the way people live and what they think. They are fighting nail and tooth to keep this power, a thing that gets harder and harder in this day and age and I believe that this is the main reason for the unrest between the western world and the arab world. It is frightening though, how relatively easy it is still to isolate a country in order to keep the population ignorant and pliable. Of course, it helps if it is a poor country to boot...

As usual, it is the wielders of religion that are at the root of the problems in the muslim world, just like it used to be here. Just look at the crusades... Most religions are not inherently evil but the way our "holy books" are written leaves them very open for interpretation, to be used or abused by the people claiming to speak in gods name. No man is born a fanatic, they are molded into one.

As for gods existence... If he exists so must every other god that people around the world believe in. I believe that it is our faith in our gods that makes them able to exist.

[BoomDoom]

As for the bible being proof of existance. I don't know how many of you read the scientologists bible when it was on the net a few years ago but that is a "bible" of sorts and is used in the practice of a religion and claims some extraordinary things but is complete fantasy. For some reason the scientologists don't know its fantasy but its pretty clear that it is.

The nice thing is, that unlike Catholics, Muslims, or Jews its ok to make fun of Scientologists, because they're just so damn freaky...

[ntrox1]

Dominata: I like your content. Succinctly put, and I agree You have managed to put this in a way that does it justice, which is something I was struggling with.

BoomDoom: I think that is how the bible was written. Pure fantasy derived from snippets of scriptures (as Dominata wrote about it) that was put together in a control manual. Nothing factual at all, except using certain historical happenings such as the Cretian tidle wave, the comet etc and bending it to the wills of a god.

Again, my opinions, don't take offence etc.

[Gene13]

There is no god on my side of the fence as long as I have the bigger stick.

Does that make me an atheist or agnostic?

/G13

[____________Dominata]

Originally posted by Ntrox
Dominata: I like your content. Succinctly put, and I agree You have managed to put this in a way that does it justice, which is something I was struggling with.

BoomDoom: I think that is how the bible was written. Pure fantasy derived from snippets of scriptures (as Dominata wrote about it) that was put together in a control manual. Nothing factual at all, except using certain historical happenings such as the Cretian tidle wave, the comet etc and bending it to the wills of a god.

Again, my opinions, don't take offence etc.

Thank you! And I hardly ever take offense when somebody is nice to me, Ntrox!

[lilnymph]

Just a couple of points about the bible. Firstly my comment about jesus being crucified, it wasnt the fact that it someone was crucified, which was a common punishment (or deterrent, one roman governor had half the workers nailed to the newly finished walls of Jerusalem as a warning against armed uprising). It was the point that documented evidence of 3 people being crucifed around the time of the feast of passover, and them being about the right age for jesus to be amoung them. Also the new testament was written either by people who where around jesus, or knew one of the people who where around jesus, and the where written FOR the early christian church, so people could have checked it out. It is also quite possible many more people wrote about Jesus, but remember, boh the Romans, and the Jews would have been trying to stop any major spread of this new "Heresy", so it is quite likely they where lost in the next almost 2000 (how many other books for that time do you read?)
Just ignoring something like that is very bad scientific practise (I did a physics degree, you cant just ignore results because you dont like them, you have to work out how you get them, and actually have to try to repeat how you get these "bad" results, to show you understand where they come from, or you have to work them into your theory). I agree that most of the bible is probably made up, but it annoys the Heck out of me when so called "Scientific" people just say it is a load of mumbo jumbo with no eividence to back them up. This "mumbo Jumbo" has caused billions of people to believe in something, and personally I think that something like that deserves more evidence before it is ignored.

And about the difference in god between the old and new testament, isn't it obvious? He had a mid life crises somewhere between them, and his counsellor advised him to be more of a people person (or god in this case) (this is a joke, sorry if it offends anyone, if it does, send me a PM and I will remove it).

HidaReign, ALL science is theory's, and anyone who tells you otherwise is mistaken. Another of my pet hates (Yes, I do have alot dont I ) is when people say things like "You CANT go faster than light", or any other definate statement like that.

Anyway, really have to go back to work now, so hugs

lilnymph

[ntrox1]

Hehe that anti-flame bit at the bottom was aimed at the believers who may take offence to my lack of belief. You need to be careful when talking about religion. A very dodgy subject!

Gene13: if you were on one side of a fence, and god was on the other, and you had the bigger stick, that would make you a god as well, as you are at least as powerful as he is, if not more

[AkodoReign]

Right thus the point about the Theory of Relativity.. In fact the earliest writeups from Him said it was possible... That was before he unleashed the atomic Bomb.. LOL... I agree he should have been a watch maker .

[ntrox1]

"This "mumbo Jumbo" has caused billions of people to believe in something, and personally I think that something like that deserves more evidence before it is ignored."

Hmmm.. No. Look at religion. How many people are religious? OK, how many of them follow the bible? Not as many as you think. The jews have their own book, then there is the Koran, then there is Buddhism, then I have here a bucketful of other religions. I will reiterate: just because a book has become popular with certain people does not make the contents fact, nor does it mean everyone should follow it. I do not follow it, nor do billions of others on this planet. More and more people are not following the bible and its teachings, as more people are following either diverse religions or no religion.

As for the crucification: I am sure many people were killed each week. Coincidence? Probably, but neither you nor I can say for definite either way, which is why I choose to ignore it and get on with my Athiest life. It is also why you choose to believe it is the truth and go on with your non-Athiest life, whether you are CoE, Catholic, Christian or Buddhist

Hmm another thing to consider: god created the world in 7 days. OK, so who was there to time him? Seeing as time did not exist for us humans until we were created (evolved, but hey) then how could we have measured it? I'm sure god wouldn't brag to adam and eve (IF they existed, surely not, look at evolution ) as thats not the godly thing to be done.

[lilnymph]

The point you are talking about is the his original inclusion of the universal constant in the theory, to fit the steady state theory of the universe. He later removed it, and admitted why he had put it in, and said it was the greatest mistake of his life. Just to keep you updated, it has since been put back into the theory. All of physics is constantly changing as our understanding of the universe grows. We have theory's that seem to work, but we have to modify them, or even change them as we learn more. Thats what physics is.

hugs

lilnymph

[____________Dominata]

The bible, the koran and other scriptures probably started out as a sort of guides on how to be a good person and also an attempt to explain the world around us. How would you explain a meteor or tidal wave when you don't even a have a framework of science to base your explanation around? Of course it was a higher power behind it, what else could it be?

Strip away all religious overtones from the bible and you have a fairly straightforward and basic rulebook on how to behave in the everyday world that should be valid even today. Be nice to your fellow man and treat people the way you would like to be treated in turn etc.
Religion fits in to this frame because people have always needed, even wanted things to believe in, things and entities higher than themselves. We need to know that death is not the end, that would be too scary.

In a way it is the same way with science, it fills our need to understand our place in the world now and how that world functions. In order to do this science have chosen a set of tools to come to grips and figuring out what makes literally everything tick along. These tools, like mathematics for instance, function the way they do because it is the system we have been able to come up with. On another world, mathematics may follow entirely differebt rules but still come to the same conclusions as we do.

As lilnymph says, we constantly have to change our physics rules as they turn out to be not entirely accurate, so they get adapted to more accurately fit our new view on some aspect of the world.

So, basically science and religion fills different facets of the same need, they only go about it in completely different ways. The schism between religion and sciance goes back centuries but what is surprising is that even in our enlightened day and age they are not able to coexist in a peaceful manner. There is room for both, you know...

Now...the only thing that really bothers me is that we may all be a figment of someone elses imagination! So what am I doing here, typing, when I could be ingame instead???