those blacks

[______________hobbes]

Yes, an intentionally provokative title just to get you to check it out.

Oh, I should have said "Afro-Americans" to be PC. Screw that! They have about as much connection with Africa as I do with Scotland, which is 0.

My point is this:

Tonight I have been watching all the 9/11 tributes and have seen American blacks crying their eyes out, listened to a choked up Joe Morgan.

If there is an upside to 9/11, it is the shock to black Americans that, Yes, this is their country. We are all Americans. Welcome home.

This does not excuse transgressions in the past, but those acts were committed before my family and most families I know were even here.

My point, it makes me so happy and encouraged to see black Americans cry for their country. Let us move forward as a nation, to be both religiously and racially blind (all men under God, created equally) so that our country can potentiate itself.

Welcome, my black friends to America, you are America, as I am. We are one, indivisible.

[_______________Xuric]

I would have never guessed you for patriotism. Funny thing is, while African-American as a term (not 'Afro-American'), may be being used less and less, the other dark-skinned residents of our nation are having a far less PC term attached to them. I have no real opinion about that, just an observation, as far as I'm concerned, I'm happy being a lazy complacent American, those are the benefits of 'freedom' to me. And to the army of obese owners of 'Abs of Steel' who feel a sense of purpose with 'patriotism'. Maybe I'm just jaded Nah, I am jaded.

[______________hobbes]

Xuric,

Afro is the combining form of African, so Afro-American and African-American are identical in meaning.

The homologue of Caucasian is Negro. Both these terms indicate the origins of a type or race of people. One is considered "white", the other "black", in common usage.

Afro-American is a PC word created to fill out application forms. It conveys that you are American in citizenship, but have a minority status. It should be Race: Negro, Citizenship: American, but I think that from a historical context, the word Negro has pejorative connotations (due to its similarity with another word)so Afro-American was created.

/me stops pulling lint from my navel.

Anyway, you are right on the money about Patriotism, so let me qualify it from a prior post.

No time to edit thread, will return later to see what misunderstandings I have caused. Damn, I am so late for work now. How come computer time is not in sync with real time.

From this thread: http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...0&pagenumber=2


"Just tugging your catheter, there is a big difference betwen being proud of your country and being arrogant. I am in a strange quandry, I am proud to say I am an American, but when I turn on the TV and see Jerry Springer and its multiple clones I feel shame. These are Americans, too. When I go the store, I see people who are nothing short of grotesque. Not too proud of them, either.

So I feel proud of the country as a whole and the quality of life and opportunities it affords me, yet I feel that I wade through a sea of idiots. But I bet this is how most educated people feel, no matter the country.

So you can have your views on America, the country. But if you were to hate me because I introduced myself as an American, that would be short-sighted. People are people, regardless of country of origin, unfortunately most are idiots."

I was amused to see that you made reference to our abs of steel society, just as I had. Several of our threads, posted indepently, have very similar points of view.

[______________Rogoff]

Originally posted by hobbes

Oh, I should have said "Afro-Americans" to be PC. Screw that! They have about as much connection with Africa as I do with Scotland, which is 0.

Just so you know, many ethnic groups do in fact cherish their relationship to their motherland.

There's a small neighborhood near where I live where a mural of prominent Polish-Americans (their term) is painted on the wall.

Many Black families do in fact celebrate Kwanzaa (sp?), which seems to celebrate/acknowledge a connection to Africa.

And, Native Americans...well, I'm not sure they'd consider that term "PC" as much as accurate.

Don't confuse PC with polite. You might not be able to tell the difference between an Indian and a Pakistani, but believe me they can. Correct names are important to some people.

[______________hobbes]

Rogoff,

Two points.

1) I hate the title of this thread. It was a case of hitting the post button and not the preview button. Apparently, you cannot use edit to change the title. It will change it at the top of the post, but not what is diplayed on the forum page. (Note American blacks at the top of the first post).

2) Your point is valid and I appreciate the input. Many people are still closely linked with their hertiage and this is a source of pride for them. I come from a city where their are strong Italian and German communities.

When you talk about Afro-Americans, you are really discussing the people who were brought here 100s of years ago against their will. So at present, the descendents here today have little connection to the parent continent. Remember people were brought from many tribes and many African countries. I bet most of the original Negroes could not understand one another. So, yes they may have originally come from Africa, but Africa to them is a place on the map, most probably have no clue which part they even came from (just a guess).

Lately, dressing in traditional African tribal-type clothing (Queen Latifah-don't remember the tribe she is Queen of but I know they drive around in the traditional African Benzs') and celebrating Kwanzaa has become more common. The question I pose is this.

Are people really celebrating their heritage or just mimicking it, not having any real connection.

For instance, my heritage is muddled with many gene pools but the family name is Scottish. I have never been to Scotland, I have never eaten haggis, there are no stories about the "old country", and nobody has ever spoken to me in that distinctive Scottish accent (See Mike Myers-Saturday Night Live- "If it's not Scottish, it crap" and "Scotch is a drink, Scots are people, you idiot").

So if I start wearing a kilt and playing the bagpipes, I am not really Scottish am I. I have no clue what perspectives the citizens have and what it is like to grow up Scottish.

I would simply be mimicking the appearance of a stereotyped Scotsman, and this would only be window dressing. I would still think and act as an American, not as a Scotmans.

So the point of my post was that the tradegy showed to them that they are American, now, just as I am American and no longer a Scotsman, and we can carry forth as Americans in America. Our common homeland and culture being more defining of who we are than the color of our skin or our ancestral homelands.

[______________Rogoff]

Originally posted by hobbes
So if I start wearing a kilt and playing the bagpipes, I am not really Scottish am I. I have no clue what perspectives the citizens have and what it is like to grow up Scottish.

Very true. Yet neither do many residents of a Chinatown know what it's like to live in China. Or many Pittsburghers (where I'm from) know what it's like to live in Warsaw, Poland.

That doesn't mean they (and you) can't be proud of their ancestors who DID live there. Perhaps proud is the wrong word. That doesn't mean they can't derive some identity from those ancestors.

For example, Daughters of the American Revolution: http://www.dar.org/cgi-bin/natsociet...d=92&hd=n&pf=n

In order to be a member, you have to trace your lineage to an American Patriot of the original 13 states. Sounds difficult, yet there are roughly 800,000 members.

I think we'd both agree that few of these 800,000 know anything about the rigors of Independence War life, 10 generations ago, yet the heritage is important to these folks nonetheless. Should you or I sit in judgement of that pride?

Another link you might find interesting, http://www.flascot.com .

I doubt that members of either of these orgs feel they are mimicking anything.

To the point of your 1st post, I completely agree that 9/11 has brought Americans together, but I think that applies to everyone - whether Korean, Jewish, Italian, Polish or Black. Lets hope that the day-to-day experiences of Koreans, Jews and Blacks continues to reinforce that solidarity.

BTW, when I was in college I knew an african princess (literal on both terms). Before her family was deposed, guess what kind of car she drove .

[______________hobbes]

Your points are again valid and I in no way meant that people couldn't have pride in their ancestory. Especially those who have made attempts to retain their culture by forming local societies.

In regard to Chinatown, people born here can live in neigborhoods where they can speak their native tongue, be raised according to Chinese tradition, eat traditional food, marry according to custom. Yes, they are removed from China, but still can imbibe their customs.

All of these aspects were taken from American blacks (inner city dwellings are largely black but are certainly not African cultural centers), in fact, what a persons culture was became obscured by mixing of tribes, the only commonality being black skin. Remember these people can from a continent, not a country.

Ask a black American to speak his native African tongue, ask him what people eat in his home country (soul food, right), heck ask him what their religion is (Probably all Baptists, right).

Imagine if slaves were brought from Europe- France, Germany, Spain, England, Scotland, Wales, Ireland- and mixed together here- there only link being white skin. Mix thoroughly and add 200 years. What is their culture?

Seriously, on that tiny dot called Great Britan, we have very distinct cultural and religious differences. An Irishman would take offense at being called English and vice versa.

So what then is the culture of these displaced white people? Well, I guess they are white and came vaguely from Europe. Well, an Englishman is certainly no Kraut or Frog. An Irishman is no Spaniard.

The only commonality is the color of skin and that is not a culture. So two black friends here, identifying each other based on color, may have been sworn enemies in that vast continent of Africa or more likely their initial cultures were very different from one another.

Sure 9/11 has made us all closer, but I find the saga of American blacks a unique one. At one point there was a plan to create an African country and send them all back there. It was to be called Liberia- for liberty.

So freed blacks may have been living in this country, but not felt part of it due to the injustice. But now, over all these years, great strides have been made to create equality and many are yet needed, but this tragic event may serve as a turning point, where the black says "its not perfect, but this is my country and this will be the hertiege of my future generations", erasing all thoughts that they are just temporay visitors here, awaiting the day until they return home (where-ever that is).

[______________Rogoff]

Originally posted by hobbes
The only commonality is the color of skin and that is not a culture. So two black friends here, identifying each other based on color, may have been sworn enemies in that vast continent of Africa or more likely their initial cultures were very different from one another.

I understand your point, and that was my main reason for digging up the DAR site.

There are many types of patriot that qualify you for membership in the DAR, but two are most relevant to your point:

State Navy
Privateers

So, if your ancestor was in the Navy, or was a Privateer, you qualify. Privateers are pirates who have agreed to attack only one side in a conflict. In peacetime, pirates are the mortal enemies of the Navy.

So, 2 members of the DAR may very well be descended from people who tried their best to kill each other. 200 years later that enmity means little except as a curiosity. The greater common bond of having patriot decendents is all that's counted.

Similarly, its probably safe to say that African tribal vendettas are forgotten in the face of shared experiences.

As another example, I've been on business trips in the southern US, and I have seen homes that fly the Confederate flag. Certainly the Confederacy has been defunct since 1865, yet some people still derive a part of their identity from it. A modern Southerner with a Confederate flag on his truck is little different from a modern Black person wearing an African hat.

Both subscribe to a culture that they have only tenuous ties to.

I believe that a person has many choices in what "culture" they belong. Some Black people celebrate Kwanzaa, Sammy Davis Jr (presumably) celebrated Hannukah, some Asian people celebrate Chinese New Year, some celebrate Christmas. An Indian person in a Yarmulke might seem silly to some people, but if that's what he identifies with, I say go for it.

Those are just my beliefs. We're all entitled to our own (freedom has it's perks ).

I don't disagree at all about 9/11 bringing us together, and I'm sure that it made many Black people glad to be an American. I'm equally sure it helped some White people realize that having Blacks move into your neighborhood isn't the end of the world.

[______________hobbes]

So what is our point?

Are we agreeing, arguing, discussing or just having an interesting conversation.

I know I have enjoyed the exchange, but I have no reply as I have nothing to defend, disagree with or anything to add. I have reached closure.

As Jesse Jackson once said, "We are all looking for..... common ground" or was that a parody on SNL?

Freedom is the ultimate perk.

Thanks for your insight.

Cheers,

Hobbes

[______________Rogoff]

Originally posted by hobbes
So what is our point?

Are we agreeing, arguing, discussing or just having an interesting conversation.

I'd say a mixture of the first three, for certain. As to the last, that depends on whether you found it interesting.

I did .

Thanks for the good discussion.

[Gearbox]

What the hell are you talking about? Blacks have fought in our wars, they've participated in government, science, business, you name it.

They didn't just "realize" they're Americans after the tragedy. You don't have a damn monopoly on patriotism, my friend.

[______________hobbes]

I think it was a wake up call. This is the only real threat to our national security that I can recall. Not a threat to take over our country, but a threat to alter the way we live here at home.

We all have enough stress going to work, raising kids, worrying about crime, etc. I don't think we realized how lucky we were not to have to worry about terrorists threatening our everyday lives.

You want to take your kids to the ballgame and have the luxury of pretending that the outcome has some meaning, not worry about a blimp dropping down and exploding in the stadium.

How important was it that your hometeam won on 9/10 last year. Probably can't remember what the score was because the 9/11 tradgedy made you face what was really important.

As a perspective, I have an Indian co-worker who told me that in his commute home in college, he had to board a train on a platform that had been bombed or otherwise terrorized 20 times over the past several years. When you went there, you were just rolling the dice. Here, yes we have crime, but our college students worry more about the next test, rather than being blown up randomly at the subway station.

So for this generation of black Americans, this was their first exposure to a real external threat to their country that threatened the way they lead their daily lives. Their first time to consciously articulate, "Hey, that really pissed me of, this is my country your threatening and I'm going to stand up for it".

I chose to focus on blacks because they occupy a unique niche in American society, but all of us were effected.

My post was about moving in the right direction to a more colorblind society, united under (not George Bush, the current caretaker) the philosophy of freedom and justice for all.

Pretty positive post. I really can't understand why you felt, after reading the entire thread (which I assume you have) that I was trying to corner the market on patriotism and disrespect blacks who have served this country. What did you think my point was?

You know, I can work for a company, be productive and well paid, but still tell all my buddies in the breakroom about how I hate the way management treats me, and I am out of here at the first opportunity.

Actions are often done to put food on the table, but they do not define where your heart is.

Look at the Scott Rolen situation. He was a good baseball player who contributed as he could to the success of the team, but his heart was elsewhere due to philosophy differences. Now he is on a new team, and loves the environment of the town and the philosophy of the management, so his actions and his heart canwork in unison and not have that internal conflict.

I think the analogy is pretty clear.

(1. This is an example, not a STL vs. Philly judgement, ok)

[Gearbox]

Originally posted by hobbes
If there is an upside to 9/11, it is the shock to black Americans that, Yes, this is their country.

It's the way you seem to lump blacks into a homogenous group, and make sweeping statements as to their mindset. I understand what you're saying, I think, but it seems like a backhanded compliment.

If I've misread you, I apologize. Perhaps the thread's title put me into a defensive posture.

[______________hobbes]

Originally posted by hobbes
Rogoff,

Two points.

1) I hate the title of this thread. It was a case of hitting the post button and not the preview button. Apparently, you cannot use edit to change the title. It will change it at the top of the post, but not what is diplayed on the forum page. (Note American blacks at the top of the first post).

Yes, it is a bad title.

Black homogeneity? I think if you read the entire thread you will see that I actually say the opposite.

I find it refreshing that you are aware of your own bias and how it may cause you to be unfairly critical.

In the end, I meant no offense to anyone, so I apolgize if I have been insensitive.

Take care, Bluecat

Hobbes

[BoomDoom]

Article about Black History Month - check it out

[ntrox1]

I had lots to comment on, but its now so much my brain exploded.

I will leave you with this thought: I am British, English in fact. When I go to America, why do you think I am Australian? Why do you claim to speak "English" when you cannot spell it correctly? Lastly, why do you all think I know the Queen? I've never even seen the lady

(light hearted, do not flame!)

[lilnymph]

light hearted post about how the Americans see the english language, quote taken from buffy the vampire slayer :

Buffy: speak english, not whatever they spoke in, ermm

Giles: England?




hugs

lilnymph

[ntrox1]

Lol!

Yeah, that little island in Europe..

We're not in Europe damnit!

[______________hobbes]

Originally posted by Ntrox
Lol!

Yeah, that little island in Europe..

We're not in Europe damnit!

Wow, you talk about issues.

In trying to make the analogy, that even people living in close proximity, can be quite distinct in culture, I stepped on someones very sensitive toes.

Although he is correct very technically, this detail was ignored to retain the thrust of my point.

Africa is a Continent so I wanted to use another continent for the analogy. I chose Europe. So what continent is Great Britain on? Well, if it were big enough it could be it's own, like Australia, but heck since it is so small, so close and its history is so intimate with that of Europe, I just threw it in.

I am just blown away that in such a serious discussion, that someone went into an analogy to dissect out a lesson in geography. What are concepts and analogies when we can perseverate over details. Remember analogies are allowed some artistic license.

So, after reading this whole thread and the sensitive and serious issues it dealt with, you felt that my entire goal was to disrespect Engand. Wow! Talk about issues!

Fortunately Ntrox is speaking in jest, but I have seen many similar replies on this board to know his is an exception and not the rule

BTW: I can tell British from Australian accents, how good are you at determining the different American accents. Should I take umbrage that you think I am from the Northeast despite the fact I
am from the urban, not rural, midwest. The difference is obvious to me.

[ntrox1]

Yes hobbes, it was in jest

I'd never get into an argument about this, as the US and UK are "buddies", its just one of our pet "gripes" if you can call it. No, not a gripe, more of a friendly observation

No, I can't tell the difference between a Texan accent and a Californian one. I couldn't even point out Texas on a map. Your country is too damned huge for us to bother learning all the states!

Hmm.. I can't even point out Northumbria on a map of the British Isles..

Lastly, could any of you differentiate between Welsh and Scottish? Probably not But hey, who cares? Its all lighthearted.

Btw, the reason why I posted as such was that I wasn't able to think of anything intelligent to add, although the gist of the conversation is something close to my heart. In the UK there are lots of "racist" and "PC" situations to consider. We are too analy PC to be able to function correctly any more. PC is only there to remind us not to be racist, however if you are not racist, it just confuses the matter.. Blurgh.