Reply to Cz in closed thread

[____________Corianin]

Originally posted by Cthonian


I'd say - no need to set any official rules about kill stealing at all,
the community handle it already.
The one who do kill stealing too much will be hated by many,
and even an absolute lowbie becomes powerful one day.
This lowbie will tell his friends etc.
One say: "don't spite in a well, you may be thirsty once".
What Funcom should cut off is real harassing = actually following someone to disturb.
Enforcement of any rule considering so called "kill stealing" will
do more harm then anything good
( what Steffani's story proves ),
in the best case you just waste time/human resouces...

100% agreement on this one. Also, instead of writing policy, spend the same hours trying to get rid of these situations. (Having to kill thousands of mobs or camp uniques) for the über rare loot)

[Cz]

Originally posted by Cthonian
I'd say - no need to set any official rules about kill stealing at all,
the community handle it already.
The one who do kill stealing too much will be hated by many,
and even an absolute lowbie becomes powerful one day.
This lowbie will tell his friends etc.
One say: "don't spite in a well, you may be thirsty once".
What Funcom should cut off is real harassing = actually following someone to disturb.
Enforcement of any rule considering so called "kill stealing" will
do more harm then anything good
( what Steffani's story proves ),
in the best case you just waste time/human resouces...

Good input. Thanks.

I still think some rules are needed. That the person will be hated by others is little help to the poor new guy - who might not have made friends yet - who doesn't get any fun because a veteran decides to area nuke for hours in the newbie area.

[____________Greystar]

Originally posted by Cz
Kill-stealing has a lot of grey areas, and this is where the GM / ARK has to use their judgement and observe the situation.

If you have a suggestion on how to write 100% good rules for kill-stealing, training of mobs on others, and other similar issues, feel free to send them over, and I'll hand them to Customer Service for consideration.

!00% is impossible of course, but in any case you cannot prevent "killstealing", and you cannot really forbid it either nor say it is the same as harassment, as the player who gets outdamaged always will call the other player a killstealer and then you would have to ban half the playerbase

Training mobs is easier to detect, you just have to stay hidden and watch the player do it again, and have your proof.

Competing for looting rights though should be legal anywhere, unless the player who outdamages others repeatedly has no reason to do so other than harass. When the player can answer an ARK why he kills low level mobs, like in this case in search for rare discs, or at unique mobs that are grey but drop special items, there should be no case, ever.
If the player cannot explain why he kills grey mobs repeatedly that give no experience or loot, but prevents other players to kill them who have a reason, like getting experience, to be there, then a warning is in order of course.

[_______________Talys]

Cz, I don't believe that any ARK or GM ever witnessed or accused Steffani of kill-stealing - by that I mean, watching another player start on a monster, then finish it off to annoy them or to steal their xp.

Please correct me if I am mistaken, but the Director of the ARK Team and person responsible for game policy, stated the reason for the warning in the original thread (http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...threadid=50383):

15:44: [Faunus] Mjoellnir: taking a controll over spawn, preventing other players from playing is considered a harassment

15:48: [Faunus] Faunus: A level 200 character will not receive any worthwhile exp reward for killing the snakes.

15:52: [Faunus] Mjoellnir: a Gm will give you a tell if you want, confirming that this is harassment

I am clear that repeated kill-stealing is considered harrassment, and this seems fair to me. My question is, is taking over control of a spawn considered harrassment, or are the ARKs involved in error? Since an unspecified GM confirmed this, is that GM in error as well?

Also, does being there first matter at all? ie, if I control the spawn before someone comes, is it still considered controlling the spawn if they cannot take it from me?

On a peripheral issue, I believe that the forum is indeed a appropriate place to communicate this information because there are many other people in exactly the same situation, and there is no published set of "game rules" outside of the rules of conduct. It's not very fair to give people warnings, verbal or otherwise, if they have no idea .

I don't think the forum is a good place to just rant or flame, but I see none of that here; in fact, there is appears to be some pretty good constructive criticism.

[Darkbane]

Killstealing - Yes, this can be tricky if a team are dropping a MOB in under 10 seconds, but if team/player A starts attacking a MOB, then some noticable length of time later team/player B does, then that is clearly killstealing. What that noticable length of time is is debatable of course... In 25% areas then a clan player/team and an omni player/team should be permitted to killsteal off each other freely, and in a 0% area then anything goes.

Spawncamping - well, if you are there first and have reason to be there (be it xp or loot) then if someone else comes along and starts to monopolise the spawn then that would be reasonable grounds for harrasment. Again, different sides in a 25% zone should be permitted to compete, and in 0% anyone can compete.

But I agree, it would be pretty much impossible to define absolute rules for this sort of thing.

[Bionitrous]

So, if some lvl200 Fixer who never got Grid Armor is blowing away a spawn with cluster bullets and my 'appropriate level' character is not able to hunt that particular camp, I can /petition a GM to put a harrassment warning out on this guy because I'm not able to hunt that camp?

Sounds stupid to me. Even stupider that they make NT's and Fixers kill millions of grey monsters to get a damn item when they could be off enjoying the game and creating good publicity for FunCom.

I can just imagine what some Fixer has to say to his friends who might be considering AO after killing Claws for three weeks about how 'fun' the game is. Or the same situation except these are the people who weren't able to hunt those Claws at the 'right' level.

[Centurion3]

mmm tricky situation, hope we resolve this on the forum so we can all read the sollution, because in my, oh so humble opinion, those ARK's where the ones who where harrasing....

[____________Corianin]

Originally posted by Centurion3
mmm tricky situation, hope we resolve this on the forum so we can all read the sollution, because in my, oh so humble opinion, those ARK's where the ones who where harrasing....

Agree here as well. With the precaution that some information has not yet reached the forums, those arks clearly stepped over the line. The different reactions by the various GMs/arks also show that this is inconsistency at its worst.

[_____________Lamonia]

There is only one rule that is needed and it has been used from the release of this game and many others and will be used in others to come.


Rule NR1: If you can do it you do it - when you can't do it you will not do it.


People have been running on the celing in missions in this game when they could - now they can't - so they don't.


This issue is beyond any specif case like killing snakes and blaster beetle in VW - it is also beyond killstealing. Its only evidence of a sickness badly taken care of





Lamonia

[assassimon]

Kill-stealing has a lot of grey areas, and this is where the GM / ARK has to use their judgement and observe the situation.

So people that don't even play the game should use their judgement and decide if a player should be warned or not?


It's fact that some ARKs(mostly old time arks, that have high rank now) and some GMs don't play AO, how can they judge a ingame situation that you only would understand if you play the game?

[____________Steffani]

I think is a powertrip.. "I will warn you, Don't know why.. but I can!" or "Hey you lied, I will warn you for that!"

[Darkbane]

The ARKs need to have clear guidelines. They need to observe the situation from hiding. If person A is consistantly going after the same MOB as person B when there are other suitable MOBs available, then person A's intent would seem fairly clear. If they are going after the same MOB and its the only suitable one, then that's really just competition.

And they need to make sure that the person they are issuing a warning to is clear as to exactly why. [Assuming the posted logs in this particular case are accurate, then that would not seem to have happened in first instance.]

Whether they play the game or not shouldn't be relevant, observation should provide a reasonable picture of a player's behaviour in many cases. And its the behaviour and not the game mechanics that is of relevance.

And ARKs should be much less strict in enforcing rules in a 25% zone if players/teams are of different sides, and as for 0% - rules? what rules?

Of course, these guidelines and stuff need to be made clear to the players too.

[Valoren]

Originally posted by Cz
Cthonian, no, the thread was closed to allow for me and Steffani - the person who's case this actually is - to communicate over the case in one channel. If I wanted to hide the logs I would have deleted the thread.

I don't mind that the case goes on the bulletin board, but when people post there instead of bringing the case to us, it is - still in my opinion - a cry for attention instead of solution.

It wouldn't have taken much to e-mail me first, wait for my reply, solve the issue, then post it on the bulletin board if needed.

This case actually due the GM dragging me into it, now involves me as well. And I would like an appology from the rude GM. Is that a lot to ask? Do I need to formally file a complaint against him first in game? I emailed you as requested, and am awaiting some response. I won't post anymore here until I hear something back via email. To give you the benefit of the doubt.

If we didn't bring this to the forums, odds you would have given us a solution and then this would have faded away with nothing be said to the GMs involved. It would be nice for him to have a warning on *his* record for misusing his power. I actually told steffie just to let it go, don't post on forum just email Cz, at one point. But then this Karma guy just flinging that power around like he's god and don't care or something. Their needs to be a board of people over GM's which monitor what they do on a daily basis. Kinda like internal affairs in the police.

Btw, is it entrapment if steffani tells me something and then he turns around and asks me *right* after she tells me that very same thing? I know he was reading what we were saying with his gm uber powers, there is no way otherwise he would have asked that, why did he even have to ask? He knew the answer. It was like he was asking me a question trying to make me lie or something.

Ok i'm done have fun

Val

Edit: Oh btw, if you notice in my log, I did tell Karma she was going to post this on the forums, and he didn't tell us that it was not the proper channel. He didn't tell us any proper channel on where to take this. Is that our fault or his?

[_____________Borrace]

Cz,

I have sent you an email per your request on this thread. It is a very specific issue, and I hope you get back to me as I have no other routes for solving this problem.

Thank you.

[Mara]

Originally posted by Cz
...
If it was an issue of outdamaging them (as you suddenly state now) and they attacked first, and this happened several times, I'd say you're pretty much kill-stealing, and deserve a warning.
...

Uhm? Kill-stealing = deserves a warning ?

If thats so, AO is starting to get the same lame old Trammel-Candy-Land i left round 1,5 years before ...

Maybe Cz you should start to play the game of the company you work for ... and maybe not only at lowlevels ... ? If you would for a while you would now ...

"Kill-Stealing" was, is and will be the biggest and very often the only part of so called "High-Level-Content" ...

Theres not much else to do then competition at uniques, mobs which drop something of interesting etc. if you hit 180+ or 200 ...

[Darkbane]

Which is why the rules should not be the same in 25% and 0% zones as in 75% zones, and the issue is repeated and deliberate killstealing which is somewhat different from say Camelot anyway.

As Cz said, its all but impossible to make hard and fast rules on this, but it is possible to make well thought out and documented guidelines for ARKs to follow...

[_________Lexusstreak]

Fact, case and point, they closed it because they knew their CS reps were in the wrong and they didn't want a few thousand people telling them so. FC's rules are inconsistent, they enforce them when they simply feel like it I am afraid. It is annoying yes when high levels camp certain spots, I think we've all been there, but this case here was more or less an attempt by the arks and gms involved to blow the thing way out of porportion, all during that recorded conversartion i saw them evading steffani's direct questions and sputing nonsense, and then accused her of conspiracy to lie?

Hats off to fc in that they attempted to address the camping issue, but it was handled all wrong as I'm sure a lot of people would agree. The incident here was obviously just a territorial dispute that got of of hand, and the cs reps made a mockery of justice. Personally, in real life, if someone made such an unfounded accusation against me, a blatent lie as I see it. I'd use their testes as door knockers, and if said person was female, use her breasts for punching bags