Fix Initiatives! (Except Nano)

[Beartwo]

Originally posted by Kiryat-Dharin
Inits.

I feel no pity whatsoever for anyone who was exploiting bugged inits to scope heavily and not have to worry about the recharge portion of their weapon cycle. So they have to change.

Oh ****ing well.

Sorry, but no one is going to convince me that a bug fix is a bad change. Learn to use different weapons, different tactics. If in the process this reduces the damage that docs and traders (and NT *weapons*) do, well, to me that seems a step towards restoring the game to the original vision of soldiers, enforcers, MAs as primary physical damage dealers, with NTs and agents contributing hefty damage via nukes + weapon and AS + weapon respectively.

Yeah, MAs will hit a little faster. So? They already cap. If they scope for the extra crits, this'll *hurt* them more than it helps. If they don't, they'll just be sitting at a lower aggdef, so they'll be harder to hit. Doesn't change their damage output at all.

Jynne said it better, and more politely, than I can at this point. This enhances the abilities of professions who rely on high inits (fixer, soldier in many cases, enforcer, agent, any profession wearing slow recharge weapons) and decreases the effectiveness of scopes. It really is that simple. Stop trying to make it out to be more than it is.

It still take s a LOT of IP to get a scope on....especially for Atroxes.

I have a lot of weapons in my arsenal, and I have tested them thorougly. Being a dmg dealing prof tends to make you search very hard for something that works...both for dmg/time and max dmg on alpha strike.

Shall we see...E-beamer, Armwerks, Seburro, Nova, IEC, Techtronica, CHS, HGB, River6, Tellus, Freedom arms, XM laser, Heavy grinner, Blackhole, Sunburst, x-3 Flamethrowers, Martins.... even a sword in my early days so I could do dimach ...lol.

Implants for defensive buffs, Implants for attack rating, A mix between those... I have a long list of what I have tested.

Currently I can use anything except shotguns. And none! Not even the Martins rifle they took out do enough damage to be a real threat to anyone except som poor nanomage in rez. The healing profs outheal anything those weapons can do. And since crit is still available to them through self buff and scopes. They just became a lot stronger (relatively speaking)

For those that rely on scopes to have any chance at all this will be a disaster. The traders and MA`s wont be bothered by this fix since their abilities wont be touched.

Wether MA`s cap or not isnt the issue. The issue is that they will retain their immense speed, UVC and scopes. For the trader its the same...but with debuffs insted of UVC.

This further imbalances things...

[locomdenom]

Originally posted by Beartwo

Wether MA`s cap or not isnt the issue. The issue is that they will retain their immense speed, UVC and scopes. For the trader its the same...but with debuffs insted of UVC.

This further imbalances things...

WRONG!

If the MA scopes, then he's hurt by this change. If the MA doesn't scope, then he's aided. How hard is this to understand?

MA with scope = much slower MA.
MA with no scope = less crits for the MA.

As to traders, the same goes, and they're even more crit-dependent than an MA; shotty damage kinda sucks if you aren't critting. So, if they stick on the scope to maximize crits, they're going to do WORSE now because the init debuff on the scope will take full effect. If they leave the scope off, they won't crit.

Simple, isn't it?

The only valid point you made is in relation to healing; there, I agree. It's hard to do enough damage to take down a healing class as is, and will probably become harder now. That said, that's an entirely different issue than this, and needs to be addressed whatever happens with inits.

Are you purposefully ignoring the fact that the people you're complaining most about (MA scopers, trader shotty scopers) are the ones HURT the most by this? Or are you just stupid?

[Jynne]

I will agree that halting the drop of LLTS/ELLTS yet leaving existing ones in-game was a very silly idea. They should either all have been removed, including from player banks and inventories, or they should still be dropping.

I also agree that it's silly that crit damage is the only way to go no matter what weapon you're using, either for PvP or PvM. Before the UVC-and-scope-nerf FC seemed to adjust the game to assume people were running around with UVC and/or scopes. Now the game is still adjusted for people with between a 20% and 40% crit chance, but only MAs can even come close to that anymore.

That said I'm really looking forward to this fix. It will make a lot of weapons that suck now worth trying out again.

[secondkenlon]

Woo! XM Man Portable, here I come!

(No, I'm not kidding. I think. I may change my mind after sleeping. 40+ hours and counting!)

[Beartwo]

Originally posted by Kiryat-Dharin


WRONG!

If the MA scopes, then he's hurt by this change. If the MA doesn't scope, then he's aided. How hard is this to understand?

MA with scope = much slower MA.
MA with no scope = less crits for the MA.

As to traders, the same goes, and they're even more crit-dependent than an MA; shotty damage kinda sucks if you aren't critting. So, if they stick on the scope to maximize crits, they're going to do WORSE now because the init debuff on the scope will take full effect. If they leave the scope off, they won't crit.

Simple, isn't it?

The only valid point you made is in relation to healing; there, I agree. It's hard to do enough damage to take down a healing class as is, and will probably become harder now. That said, that's an entirely different issue than this, and needs to be addressed whatever happens with inits.

Are you purposefully ignoring the fact that the people you're complaining most about (MA scopers, trader shotty scopers) are the ones HURT the most by this? Or are you just stupid?

Since when did this end up in namecalling?

I think I have asked a resonable question, without childish language, so please be grown up enough to answer in a normal fashion!

I will elaborate a little on the MA/trader theme.
What stops them from upping and implanting their inits just like me?

Then they can (just like me) scope their little hearts away and get all the benefits from this...Except they cant fight at full def anymore.

I dont know what speed an MA can normally hit with, but I am pretty sure he/she can get above 784 init(my scopes init penalty). I know their fists are faster than any gun I have (except maybe some of the flamehrowers).

So how is it that they are being penalized? They can still use the scope for another +15% (or whatever scope they have). They have a some of the fastest weapons which in turn needs less aggbar to fire/hit fast while leaving evades high enough to overcome my atk rating.

The only penalty is agg/def bar setting ...they will still crit like mad.

[DaveDread]

Well, as a MA that doesnt like scopes very much I'll just throw my thoughts in.

MA with scope = More damage, less defence.
MA without scope = Less damage, more defence.

That's all there is to it. It's a tradeoff. This tradeoff will with fixed inits slide further to the benefit of defence.

btw, MA's desperatly needs attack rating. You could have 100% crit chance but with a low attack rating you still wont hit.

[__________Lucid Flow]

Also Note, Martial Artists use fists for the most part, and in PVP they are extremely vulnerably to Roots or Snares.

But, if they choose to use a bow, they will give up the speed and damage of their fists for range, and also give up attack rating. If they choose anything except a bow, they take a bigger hit in attack rating.

Theres no one BEST solution.

The fact is, everybody is effected by this bug fix the exact same way.

[locomdenom]

Originally posted by Beartwo


Since when did this end up in namecalling?

Since people chose to completely ignore the rest of the post and re-ask questions that are answered. Since people choose to whine that things are going to change, but don't stop to think about how they're going to change. Since people BLATANTLY disregard the explanation of the change, and just whine about thier pet peeves instead, despite the fact that the change is a mini-nerf to those pet peeves.

I will elaborate a little on the MA/trader theme.
What stops them from upping and implanting their inits just like me?

Then they can (just like me) scope their little hearts away and get all the benefits from this...Except they cant fight at full def anymore.

Just like now, you mean? Only they can't fight at full def! So this is... an IMPROVEMENT. Yep, MAs/traders who are scoping will be hurt by this. Tell me once more why this is a bad thing?

So how is it that they are being penalized? They can still use the scope for another +15% (or whatever scope they have). They have a some of the fastest weapons which in turn needs less aggbar to fire/hit fast while leaving evades high enough to overcome my atk rating.

Just like now. Only they'll have to be a fair deal further towards full aggro which means they'll be that much easier to hit. Once again, I fail to see why you're so upset about this.

The only penalty is agg/def bar setting ...they will still crit like mad.

They have a +24% crit nano. Of course they're going to crit. The difference is, now they'll either do it slower or be easier to hit while they do it.

Once again, I have to ask: Are you purposefully ignoring the fact that the people you're complaining most about (MA scopers, trader shotty scopers) are the ones HURT the most by this? There is NO way for someone with a 15% scope to do better under this new ruleset than they do under the current ruleset. None.

The delta factor for this change can be considered as the difference between your positive init effects (buffs, implants, items, trickledown) and your negative init effects (debuffs, scopes).

Given that the maximum positive init effect while wearing a scope is on the order of 400-500 (trickle-down+implants+nanos), there is no possible way to do better with a 15% scope (-800). 8% scopes will probably not change your speed much at the high end, but won't help you either, situation normal. Low scopes will be allowed to become faster, as should be.

If you genuinely don't get what I'm saying, I'd be happy to run some math for you. But I'm getting pissed at the people who take this as an opportunity to whine about their pet peeves without realizing that this actually affects the peeves negatively.

[Peisinoe]

While your points are technically true, you leave a lot out Kirat.

MA/Trader (Well, not so much trader. More MA.) will be able to still use scopes very effectively. Most others won't. The only reason why there isn't a huge disparity as it is right now in damage output at title 6 is because currently everyone uses a scope.

For example. An MA with llts 15%+24% crit at full offense. An...oh, any other prof that would use one of the slower (2+s atk/recharge times.) weapons. Obviously without a scope after 14.6. Do you see the huge disparity of damage that will ensue? Can you see it? Fixing init without fixing weapons will just result in widening the gap between MA (and to a lesser extent Trader) and every other prof in this game. While I feel it's a good change to try to make us less crit reliant, I'm very doubtful that it will be implemented very well.

I'll turn other hit other on sometimes. Any decent title 6 or even title 5 ma will be literaly crit crit crit crit crit crit crit hit crit crit crit crit hit. Sure they get parried here and there. *laugh* But I don't think there's anything wrong with the MA doing that kind of damage. I just think Funcom needs to realize that they DO in fact do that type of damage and keep that in mind when they play around with crits/scopes/inits like they plan to for 14.6 that most other people's NORMAL damage can in no way compare. That's why we all use scopes. (Most of us.)

Oh, and no offense, but complaining about roots is silly. First off, MA attack/recharge bar continues to move up and down, REGARDLESS of moving, jumping, what not. That means distance has a FAR less effect on them (while using melee) then most. (ie, root someone with a short ranged weapon, root someone with ma. See the difference yourself. MA breaks root, and hits you while running to you. Ranged weapon user of course needs to run then stand still before bars start moving.) Second, roots are insta breakable. Third, an MA with a ranged weapon will crit the living daylights out of you. Even on full def. While it's admirable that you stand up for your prof, seeing as you are the Professional, I'm afraid I can't take your views very seriously Dave. When you don't meet a single gimp from one prof, that tells you something. Considering the range of abilities of the person who might be playing that character. Like I said, I think it's great that MA is where it is now, I would just like Funcom to realize it and start realizing how it relates to other profs.

[Beartwo]

The problem isnt in wether they will be penalized, the problem is that others will be penalized more, because they are so dependant on the damage they do! (crits= dmg)

You may think me slow and halfwitted, this will hurt the classes that are struggling the most with not being able to do enough damage more than it will traders and MA`s.

I am not ignoring anything, and if you read my post you will see that. The question is: Do the benefits of this fix outweigh the detriment? And does this fix penalize those scopers that use this bug today very much at all?

You dont have to think of maths to see it, its common sense. My best dmg dealing weapons are slow, theirs are fast and this is especially true in the case of the trader. Their .favourite weapon is insanely fast compared to most soldier weapons.

This means that they will be firing faster than me with a high ql scope, with extreme atk rating and therefore will crit more.

The MA doesnt have as high atk rating, but UVC makes up for it. I will always have to fight at full aggro while using a scope. They dont now, and they wont after this fix, since their firing rate is so much faster than mine already. So they still have a much higher crit chance than me, and better evades than me, even if this improves it slightly.

So where is the improvement? They cant go full def when they fight and still have the same hit rate? It doesnt take a lot to negate the 1.5 secs on the Ithaca, but it does on any 2-2,5sec + weapon.

The positive effects are not in balance with the negative effects as far as I can see. There are no weapons that I can use with a TIM scope that will get close to the dmg I can do with a CHS or Nova/IEC (with a scope).

If you can show me maths that say that a 1,5 second weapon is more adversely affected than a 2,5 sec weapon then I will agree.


Edit:

Thx for agreeing to peisinoe =P

[Beartwo]

FC has (in its unfatomable wisdom) decided to nerf the nerfed scopes.....


How is that for a double negative?

[__________Lucid Flow]

Originally posted by Beartwo
FC has (in its unfatomable wisdom) decided to nerf the nerfed scopes.....


How is that for a double negative?

They should have been nerfed to begin with. Leaving an item in the game that was worthy enough to nerf was backwards logic anyway. I'm glad for this chance.

[locomdenom]

Woohoo, double nerf.

No, I don't agree. MAs can get the full benefit of their inits, AS THEY SHOULD, if they don't use a scope. If they scope, they'll be penalized.

What am I leaving out?

Find a gun that isn't crit-reliant to do your damage, if you're that worried about it. Crits != damage for me, nor for many other people who aren't possessed of a old-school scope.

Fine. Let's take the example of an MA with a 15% LLTS, and maxed init, which I think would be about 900. This includes 500 base, and 400 from other bonuses (trickle down, implants, etc.).

Old rules:
init benefit is -1.5s/-1.66s pre-scope
init benefit is -.15s/-1.66s post-scope

New rules:
init benefit is -1.5s/-3s pre-scope
init benefit is -.15s/-.33s post-scope

This helps scoping MAs how? They'll have to sit at full aggro, which leaves them very vulnerable. Now, if they had been smart enough to leave the scope off, they'd be able to sit fulldef and still be 1/1, and use UVC for their crits. That's cool, MAs are supposed to be crit-machines.

Traders will have to sit fullaggro now. Good.

Everyone else can either drop the scope, or sit at full aggro.

This is a bugfix, and you can't convince me it's bad for balance. Making the scopes less effective is a great way to reduce the impact of their still being in-game.

Less crit-dependent weapons arrive all the time. The MTI Martins would have been a good one, if FC hadn't removed it (yeah, I think it sucks too.) MCS is fine; Manex will be good post-init fix. How about Home Defenders for the traders? Hell, you guys shouldn't have much of a problem hot-swapping different shotties for the specials; Ithaca to get off the fling/AS, then swap to an HD for the grind (HD has better base damage than an MCS). Medium Shotty for fling if you don't want to swap. CHS was already not particularly good scoped, now it'll be worse.

I *fail to see the problem*.

[________Miniexplicit]

Disclaimer:

No player or professional knows how Inits are going to work after they are changed. Any figures offered up at this point in time are purely opinion and could be misleading. Please ignore all figures given by people who pretend to know what FC has in mind for Inits as they are probably wrong.

Listen, we have nothing to go on for how inits are going to be changed in the next patch Would you please quit assuming and then posting completely bogus numbers here? You are going to confuse people. For all we know they could be making Attack/Recharge both -1s/600 points and then cutting every single Init reducing/buffing item or nano's effects in half. Or the fix could be -1s/1000 points as FC said it was so very long ago. We don't know. Quit pretending you know.

EDIT - fixed bb code

[locomdenom]

Minivasn: whether or not they change the numbers, the overall effect is still true.

The one thing we KNOW to be true is that recharge will be properly affected. Whether my numbers are correct (i.e. whether FC changes the -1/x values) or not, the general trend of crit scopes being hurt while init buffs are helped will be true.

Yes, my numbers may be wrong, and I'd love to know what the designers are planning to do. That said, if FC changes it to -1/1000 for attack AND recharge, my example will still be correct in the general sense.

[Beartwo]

Kiryat..

No soldier weapon is close to 1.5... so how is this going to help us...

The maths are: fast weapons wont be hurt as much as slow ones..

because we cannot possibly overcome the init ever... and MA`s and traders still do more damage due to crits or atk/dodge rating..

The discusison has been moved to 50% of the crit chance it was.

Ma`s and trader do get double benefits since their rate of attack is faster than most weapons available. Prove me wrong with something that is in the game AND does decent damage???

there are NO guns not crit reliant to a soldier. Not a single one. Martins or manex ... havent seen the manex, tried the martins and its cr@p

So show me a gun that isnt crit reliant and available...

MA`s have good evade buffs and I constantly hear them talking about 1k evades... I am lvl 188 and I have (maxed for TL) close to 700.

They have faster attack, higher crit, better evades, and HEALS.... so how is this hurting them more than me?

You have made good posts before Kiryat...this one isnt one of them

[locomdenom]

Nova Flow: 1.5/2.5 1-362(500)

is a great gun to have the fix in on. Easy to get to 1/1 and still have room to go aggdef, while doing decent (not great, but decent) noncrit damage with crits as bonuses.

CHS: 2.5/2.5 1-455(320)

Not crit dependent, decent damage.

Division 9: 2.6/1.4 1-460(250)

Not crit dependent, decent damage.

Not a ton of options, but options do exist.

The actual math, Bear, is that fast SCOPED weapons won't be hurt as much as slow SCOPED ones. Whereas, fast unscoped weapons won't be helped as much as slow unscoped ones.

Stop looking at it as a "must wear scope" thing. Think about it as maximizing to 1/1 for the lowest possible aggdef setting. Since LLTS are getting dropped, Nova with TIM scope may actually become something worth thinking about.

edit: Oh, as to the evades thing: Before my GA bonus kicks in, I have around 664 DR, 610 EVC evades. At level 135. And I'm not even TL4 capped, much less 5.

You implanting properly?

[Beartwo]

Originally posted by Kiryat-Dharin
Nova Flow: 1.5/2.5 1-362(500)

is a great gun to have the fix in on. Easy to get to 1/1 and still have room to go aggdef, while doing decent (not great, but decent) noncrit damage with crits as bonuses.

CHS: 2.5/2.5 1-455(320)

Not crit dependent, decent damage.

Division 9: 2.6/1.4 1-460(250)

Not crit dependent, decent damage.

Not a ton of options, but options do exist.

The actual math, Bear, is that fast SCOPED weapons won't be hurt as much as slow SCOPED ones. Whereas, fast unscoped weapons won't be helped as much as slow unscoped ones.

Stop looking at it as a "must wear scope" thing. Think about it as maximizing to 1/1 for the lowest possible aggdef setting. Since LLTS are getting dropped, Nova with TIM scope may actually become something worth thinking about.

edit: Oh, as to the evades thing: Before my GA bonus kicks in, I have around 664 DR, 610 EVC evades. At level 135. And I'm not even TL4 capped, much less 5.

You implanting properly?

This weapon will max at 3k (at crit).... normal hits are between 175 and 600.... against mobs.


I have tested and tested imps from several known soldiers in game and made my mods.... I am well implanted, perhaps as well as any soldier who has 1 year+ experience in AO

More than 950 atk before lvl 190 means wrangle.... simple... we cant hit MA`s with 1200 evades.. (unless you mean that I should take away my TMS which is the only thing that keeps me alive to watch the ma/trader kill me)!

Since we are discussing nerfs... shall we mention 50% dmg?


So if I get a good hit... 600... I get 300.... Now Wake up and smell the coffee.

Healers outheal that in one pulse of a hot.... Nova is not a base dmg weapon...it hits from1!!!! Decent damage my....

I am looking at killing an opponent with 8k - 10k hp.... I cant heal so my only weapon is damage...fast /hard specials..alpha the lot... if that doesnt work I am dead... Most of my opponents have some form of heals.

At high level Div9 is a joke....and so is the Martins. U havent tested a manex but the stats start so low it must be another nova dud..... (without crit)

Nophex does not exist yet in game...

The most damage (if not debuffed) is getting the most specials in the shortest time (read IEC/techtronica/Nova/Dimach)

Crit means all... regular damage means nothing unless you dont crit.



Stop this sillyness and admit you are WRONG...


(now you even got me mad)

Try it before you talk

Should you wish to continue this sillyness send me a mail... I feel embarrased by discussing this in public..... Feel free.. bear1@rocketmail.com.

[Peisinoe]

The problem is that base damage does not come even close to competing with crits.

Do you know what a nova flow does to me in pvp? I ignore it. :P

I can't ignore an MA who lands 4/5 crits however. And all this change will do is allow the MA to continue critting me (with my 900 evades), while others will be faced with...trying to follow the MA route (ie: crit reliant weapon and fast), with 24% less crit then an ma, or using a slow weapon without crits.

Now, once again, there is nothing wrong with the MA being able to crit like crazy. The problem is that people who don't crit...can not even come close to competing in damage output. For instance, in pvp. Self buffed vs self buffed me. She will crit me 4/5 if I am on full offense. 1/3 if I am on full defense. Damage spam looks like this: 200 1200 1200 1200 1200. or (Full Def) 200 1200 200 200 1200 200. A person who is not using a crit reliant weapon will be doing something like this: 100 200 300 100 150 200. I won't go in to specials, because MA can switch to some nice specials that require half a second of equip time as well. Do you see the disparity? So people use scopes to try to up their damage. (Nova users use scopes for instance.) It's great that base weapons will be easier to reach 1/1. But that in itself isn't a fix. Because base damage quite literally sucks bad compared to critting.

I seriously think that Funcom has to realize that there IS a huge disparity in crit damage vs base damage. And that if they do not do something about base damage, patch 14.6 is going to WIDEN the already sick gap in damage output between some profs. Unless of course, that is what they really intend. I like the general idea that they want us to become less crit reliant. I just feel that this is a very poorly thought out process so far. I'll hold my final judgement till after 14.6 though...who knows, maybe they ARE doing something about base weapon damage.

I like where the MA is at. I don't like how this will affect the rest of the profs from competing damage wise.

Edit: Kirat, while it's easy to say we shouldn't think of criting as the answer to everything, in practice it just isn't true. I'm not saying you can't play if you choose not to rely on crits. But you're damage WILL be lower. If you choose to not believe that the game (at least at high levels, and imho at all levels) is about landing a crit and nothing to do with base damage, then you and Beartwo will never see eye to eye. I can only hope that since you're level 130something, you will continue leveling up and perhaps gathering more experience to back up your claims. *shrug*

[Beartwo]

Peisinoe is more eloquent....

Kiryat, whoever you may be in game or outside. Is it so impossible to se that a 1-X (300) weapon is worse than a 25-x(300) weapon? especially when the attack/recharge times are 1- 1.5 secs?

An MA`s base damage is far higher and the crits are 1k above that of a Nova.