Fix Initiatives! (Except Nano)

[Mercatura]

/me opens the big box of crayons

Yes, I'm sure the 3 weapons with recharges over 3 seconds that aren't total crap really need speeding up...

...just so FC can "rework" the inits and decide that it was really intended for 600 init to only give you -1/-1 since the code that was causing buffs, abilities, and implants to be ignored was also doubling the "intended" benefit

Wanna bet on that or any number of big nerfs that screw everyone over in general so we get the "intentions" of programmers/designers/janitors who maybe haven't worked at FC for over a year?

Stop betting with other people's characters, thanks.

(PS: the one post FC did make claimed 1000 init...we know its BS but maybe they don't)

[__________Lucid Flow]

Originally posted by Mercatura
Stop betting with other people's characters, thanks.

Betting? That would say first I that I had something to lose. I don't. That would also say I have something to gain. I definatly don't.

What I want to see is the game work the way it was intended. If you don't like that, then that is your problem. When people hear the word nerf they freak out. Just because you UTILIZE a BUG in the game to YOUR ADVANTAGE doesn't give anybody the right to complain when it's finally fixed.

It's ironic one of the biggest complaints about AO is the "endless bugs" and yet when a bug effects players ina good way, people scream nerf as if they are privledged to play the game in a way not intended.

[Darkbane]

Originally posted by Lucid Flow

Thats not true. There have been many skills that have been changed over the course of the game because they haven't worked as intended. The problem arises because there are assumptions made and such things are very hard to test.

Buffs, Implants and certain items SHOULD help with the recharge of a weapon the same way it effects attack. That is a given. Conversly, debuffs should effect recharge the same way they effect attack.

Am I the only sane one to think that this makes perfect sense?

'That is a given' - Where? Sorry, but now your the one making assumptions.

Its a game mechanic. It may or may not be as designed. Lets wait and see before making assuptions here. Its not as if the current mechanic stops the game being played, or that changing it would make a massive improvement to the game.

[MatronVima]

Let me see if I understand this correctly:

The skill needed to put a bullet thru the eye of a
running deer at 900 feets distance, should also
magically let your rifle eject the spent casing and
recycle a new into the chamber.

If it is a wholly manual rifle IE: you have to pull
a bolt to eject spent casing... this holds some merit
with most if not all weapons used on rubi-ka this is
wholly something the weapon itself determines as the
process is automatic.

[__________Lucid Flow]

Originally posted by Lupo
Let me see if I understand this correctly:

The skill needed to put a bullet thru the eye of a
running deer at 900 feets distance, should also
magically let your rifle eject the spent casing and
recycle a new into the chamber.

If it is a wholly manual rifle IE: you have to pull
a bolt to eject spent casing... this holds some merit
with most if not all weapons used on rubi-ka this is
wholly something the weapon itself determines as the
process is automatic.

Don't bother trying to make a real life comparison. The fact is Inits do effect recharge in game already. But only when you spend IP in the skill. So your comparison is not a good one.

[MatronVima]

Originally posted by Lucid Flow


Don't bother trying to make a real life comparison. The fact is Inits do effect recharge in game already. But only when you spend IP in the skill. So your comparison is not a good one.

Oh, ah. Guess I had that a bit on me hind leg.

I'd say it is totally wrong that init affects recharge, after all
this seems to me as two different things. Unless weapon is
automatic.

Can't say me nano's recharge any the faster thou. And I have
+1k nanoC init. I instacast them on full def thou.

[engelstein]

Originally posted by Lucid Flow
What I want to see is the game work the way it was intended. If you don't like that, then that is your problem. When people hear the word nerf they freak out. Just because you UTILIZE a BUG in the game to YOUR ADVANTAGE doesn't give anybody the right to complain when it's finally fixed.

Great, maybe after that you can whip out your crystal ball and tell us exactly why Bush wants to attack Iraq.

[locomdenom]

Originally posted by Shubalubdub
Great, maybe after that you can whip out your crystal ball and tell us exactly why Bush wants to attack Iraq.

Cuz he's a war-monger?

[Darkbane]

Originally posted by Kiryat-Dharin


Cuz he's a war-monger?

Yep, a God-Fearing Christian Warmonger - don't ya just love em?

Back on-topic...

There seems to be some assumption here that the way these things work isn't as intended when in fact we have no idea in this game what is or isnt intended...

At least we might find out in this case as a result mind you...

[Mercatura]

Betting? That would say first I that I had something to lose. I don't. That would also say I have something to gain. I definatly don't.

Thats what happens when you're betting other peoples money, or characters.

Guess its just fine with you then if FC does back and says "oops 1000 init was intended" right? After all, you supposedly have nothing to lose or gain. They did post that way back when, and even though it flies against everything us players know, it could be the "intention".

Their intentions from 1 or 2 years ago or god knows when don't mean squat now. Good intentions combined with incompetence or bad choices can turn a game to a pile of crap. Yeah, I have a problem with that

Nerf mongers in sheeps clothing and all that. And yes, my *** puckers up when I think of this game going down the tubes some more. Thats where the word nerf really comes with, the idea of playing an online game where you hit everything with soft foam bats...that game sucks.

Nerf != Fun

[__________Lucid Flow]

Originally posted by Mercatura
Thats what happens when you're betting other peoples money, or characters.

Guess its just fine with you then if FC does back and says "oops 1000 init was intended" right? After all, you supposedly have nothing to lose or gain. They did post that way back when, and even though it flies against everything us players know, it could be the "intention".

Their intentions from 1 or 2 years ago or god knows when don't mean squat now. Good intentions combined with incompetence or bad choices can turn a game to a pile of crap. Yeah, I have a problem with that

Nerf mongers in sheeps clothing and all that. And yes, my *** puckers up when I think of this game going down the tubes some more. Thats where the word nerf really comes with, the idea of playing an online game where you hit everything with soft foam bats...that game sucks.

Nerf != Fun

Oh well. I stand by my statment. Just because players have utilized inherent design FLAWS and errors in code to their advantage doesn't give them the RIGHT to nor does it give them the right to scream NERF.

I'm not "betting" anything. The analogy is STUPID. Betting by it's very definition would mean I am putting something on the table as a wager in order to gain more in return. That isn't what i'm doing.

I'm pointing out an inherent FLAW. And by the way, my character would be severely effected considering he uses a 1.5/2.5 weapon and an q250 Targeting Scope.

[nipsnaps]

Originally posted by Lucid Flow

I'm pointing out an inherent FLAW.

No, you are not. You are pointing out a very important part of game design that has been standing like it is since beta-x (beta4 atleast, probably earlier, most likely as long as initiatives have worked). The same design that makes scoping useful (thus giving a reason for that hud slot, and the whole item line). A design that also doesn't make doc ini debuffs totally absolutely and ridiculously overpowering (debuff affecting recharge and staying the value it is? haha, hehe). A design that makes perfect sense, if you would only drop the notion that it doesn't make sense (really, it isn't affected by buffing etc. because it is _ini/300 per second_). A game design which has been around for so long, that everybody who can count 1+1 and wants to make their character a little better has included in their character design (which is quite many of the higher level chars, like.. MANY).

One could go on for quite a while with the reasoning why it isn't a bug anymore but a feature, EVEN if it was not intended to be as it is. But the fact also remains, that until the one person in charge of combat system coding says it is a bug, it isn't. It is a game design. A very valid one in my view, nothing wrong with the combat system being a bit more complex than "me big number, me thus better, ugh".

Considering this was thrashed about in the old boards, "flaming" the bs ini/1000 giving a -1s/-1s to atk/rch response from Funcom, I have zero doubt they got feedback even already back then to show that: A. players knew it wasn't so B. players knew how it really was C. Funcom reps didn't deny it. Sure, Funcom reps haven't confirmed it either. Lol. Right... now what HAVE Funcom reps confirmed about the underlying game system? Have they confirmed 10AC reduces damage by 1? Not that I know of. Maybe they have, maybe they haven't. But I think the chances are they won't reply on this one either.

[__________Lucid Flow]

Originally posted by ewert
One could go on for quite a while with the reasoning why it isn't a bug anymore but a feature, EVEN if it was not intended to be as it is. But the fact also remains, that until the one person in charge of combat system coding says it is a bug, it isn't. It is a game design. A very valid one in my view, nothing wrong with the combat system being a bit more complex than "me big number, me thus better, ugh".

Just because it's inherent in game design and has been for a long time doesn't make it correct. Just because it's useful doesn't give it reason enough not to be fixed the way it was intended. Just because you don't like it because you think some other things will happen doesn't mean it was intended to be this way.

Your arguments are pretty much irrelevant. It sounds absolutely silly to me. You WANT certain bugs to stay in the game because they are beneficial to you. Heh. Thats downright selfish.

[____________Ejeckted]

I never agree with Lucid Flow, but:

IF recharge is unaffected by implants/buffs/debuffs/items,
then that is absolutly a bug.

Someone using a +15 crit scope deserves to suffer the speed penalty.

Someone using slow weapons and therefore implanting
lots of init deserves to see the full benefit of that strategy.

The way weapons are designed, it seems unlikely that recharge
is not supposed to be affected by item-based bonuses to inits.

He's right; no other skill in the game works that way,
and that should be a big clue that this would be a bug.

There have been other bugs like this with the skill system.
Raising abilities used to have no affect on nanopool.
It took them a very long time and a lot of players reporting
to finally take a look at that and fix it.

[Darkbane]

You're all still blindly assuming it *is* a bug and that it *isn't* intended, or vice-verca...

Until we're told one way or the other, this discussion is little more than a chance to let off steam... not necesarilly a bad thing, but not acheiving anything either.

In the mean time, there are other areas of the game that are far more in need of attention than a maybe-a-bit-broken-maybe-not initiative system.

[nipsnaps]

Originally posted by Lucid Flow

Your arguments are pretty much irrelevant. It sounds absolutely silly to me. You WANT certain bugs to stay in the game because they are beneficial to you. Heh. Thats downright selfish.

Well sorry to say, yours are silly too. You decided that something was broken just because _you_ felt it was, and then decided that you speak for the whole gaming community and say it must be "fixed". That sounds pretty silly too.

There are perfectly good explanations and reasons and logical conclusion one can make WHY it would work like it works, that scope -ini doesn't affect recharge. How do you recover from recoil after a shot slower, because you aimed through a scope? The answer is, you don't.

If you want to complain that it is illogical, then ini shouldn't affect recharge at ALL. Like it is for nano initiative. The word itself (initiative) pertains more to the period of time prior to taking action anyways. So yeah, lets make melee/ranged/phys ini work just like nano ini in the sense that recharge isn't affected. Keep the 600/sec and 1sec minimum. Then everyone would change from using x/mid or x/high weapons to using x/low weapons. What was the point, did something good come out of it? Not really, no.

Besides, the skill "body dev" bugs, it is the only skill that raises HP. No other skill in the game works like that! It must be a bug! (just so that you understand how your "no other skill works like this" arguments sound like)

[____________Ejeckted]

you guys are being pretty silly..

when raising psychic did not affect your nanopool,
with total nano depending on only the base nanopool skill,
that was a bug.

this would be the same sort of bug.
the game is reading the base skill and not the modified skill.

IIRC there was another bug with nano-resist skill too.
It had no abilities behind it. (like 80% psychic / 20% intelligence)
That got fixed.

really, if you weren't here from the beginning,
you have no idea how unfinished the game was at release.


you are showing a basic lack of common sense
by trying to argue that the modified skill is 'supposed to be' ignored.

[____________Ejeckted]

btw - this fix would help almost everyone,
so i'm not sure why so many have taken up cause against it.
(except that people on the board probably have developed
a pavlovian response to automatically disagree with Lucid Flow)


the only people with something to gain from this not being fixed,
are those with scopes. to them, it would be a 'nerf'.

but .. c'mon.. try to be objective.

+15 scope = -800 init penalty

currently, if the game is only reading base init skills, not modified,

then you're gettign a +15% additional crit chance
and only sacrificing 1.33 seconds in speed.
that is pretty overpowered and may even be the reason
they were taken out of the game, if FC wasn't aware of this.

I wish blackmane or a dev would respond here.
I realize they won't answer any theorys directly,
(for some reason, explaining the rules is taboo to funcom )
but it would be nice to just get a
"we've just tested this again, and it's working as intended."
or a
"we've just tested this again, and confirmed recharge speed
is not being affected by implants or items. this will be fixed."


That's the end of the arguement for me.

[Cz]

Noted, reported, verified, located, fixed, and hopefully going into 14.6.

Originally posted by Lucid Flow
I posted this on another board, but I actually meant to post it here.

Currently, Initiatives are broken. Why you ask? Actually, only half of the effect of initiatives are broken. The "Attack" part of a weapon that Inits effect is currently working properly. However, the "Recharge" part if it is not working correctly at all.

Why you ask?

Because the "Recharge" time is NOT effected by:

1) Buffs
2) Debuffs
3) Implants
4) Base Ability Points that add to the skill.

What this basically means is that the ONLY time Recharge of a particular weapon effects recharge is when you actually spend IP to raise the skill.

This ALSO means that a Doctors -1400 Init Debuff has no effect on the recharge of a weapon. This ALSO means that Offensive Steamrollers +114ish Inits has no effect on Recharge. This also means that The +180 From the TIM Scope has NO effect on Recharge. This also means that the +Ranged Init from Implants have NO effect on recharge.

** THIS ALSO MEANS that the -Inits from TARGETING SCOPES AND LOW LIGHT SCOPES have NO effect on Recharge speed!

Is that clear? I hope it is. Please fix this and fix this soon!

[Darkbane]

Ah-ha! An official answer- and its a bug! OK, that settles that.