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Thread: Fix Initiatives! (Except Nano)

  1. #61

    Talking

    Wow, my "Do ****" is at 1500!

    I have a 300 point "Do ****" buff but I charge 500k a pop
    mercatura -ae f. [trade, traffic; merchandise]

    Moved off-world and found real tradeskills...along with many other things

  2. #62
    mine must be really low i can't do ****
    The bird of paradise alights only upon the hand that does not grasp

    The original Goddess of Stabbitty Death

  3. #63

    Arrow

    Well, sorry but traders are uber. They have lots of "Do ****"

    Nerf the Do **** buffs!
    mercatura -ae f. [trade, traffic; merchandise]

    Moved off-world and found real tradeskills...along with many other things

  4. #64

    this is absolutely true and fc has already made this statement

    fc has made the statement that recharge is only affected by ip actually spent. it was only a few weeks ago so i 'm sure you can find it.

  5. #65

    Re: this is absolutely true and fc has already made this statement

    Originally posted by fumar
    fc has made the statement that recharge is only affected by ip actually spent. it was only a few weeks ago so i 'm sure you can find it.
    I looked for all posts by Cosmik or Cz 1 month and newer and never found it.

    Please post a link.

  6. #66

  7. #67
    Do you realize this is a one man war you are fighting?

  8. #68
    No, it isn't.

    I'd very much like to see inits fixed. The implants/scopes/buffs/debuffs not affecting recharge SUCKS. It means the r.init penalty on scopes is 1/3 as effective as it should be. It means the r.init bonus from implants is 1/3 as effective as it should be.

    Bump for fixing inits (other than nano, which works fine).
    Gunned down the young. Now old, crotchety, and back.

  9. #69
    Originally posted by Kiryat-Dharin
    I'd very much like to see inits fixed. The implants/scopes/buffs/debuffs not affecting recharge SUCKS. It means the r.init penalty on scopes is 1/3 as effective as it should be. It means the r.init bonus from implants is 1/3 as effective as it should be.
    Umm, you know that you can not say "as it should be" because you nor we have no solid information of how it was originally intended to work. The most obvious take on the matter would be, IMHO, that because init is x/300 instead of x/600 for recharge, they DID intend it to work so that buffs etc. don't affect it. It would give a logical reason why recharge is affected "more", because its effective value is less.

    Shrugs. Frankly, the issue is quite a lose-lose situation. They "fix" ini to have the final value be effective, and then they fix it into x/600 for recharge too as it is for atk. What was the use, except that debuffs are even worse? I see no reason why the debuffs need any buffing, they totally rock as is.

  10. #70
    My stats. 3 implants on RI and Tim Scope, Title Capped.
    1016 implanted RI
    495 Pure IP raised RI

    1 sec Attack/600
    2 sec Recharge/600

    Attack/Recharge --1.69s/-1.65s

    Instead of being 1/3 as effective, recharge is almost as effective as attack. Only given the fact that when someone hits you with a debuff or you decided to use a Crit scope it doesn't go down, it is much more effective. Unless you don't want to spend IP in the skill, then you are screwed.

  11. #71
    Originally posted by Minivasn
    My stats. 3 implants on RI and Tim Scope, Title Capped.
    1016 implanted RI
    495 Pure IP raised RI

    1 sec Attack/600
    2 sec Recharge/600

    Attack/Recharge --1.69s/-1.65s

    Instead of being 1/3 as effective, recharge is almost as effective as attack. Only given the fact that when someone hits you with a debuff or you decided to use a Crit scope it doesn't go down, it is much more effective. Unless you don't want to spend IP in the skill, then you are screwed.
    I might just be too drunk to know, but this didn't make any sense.

    You talk about effectiveness overall. I didn't. I specifically said: "It means the r.init penalty on scopes is 1/3 as effective as it should be. It means the r.init bonus from implants is 1/3 as effective as it should be." I.E. certain situations, which happen to form a pretty big portion of the game (name me one high level PvPer who doesn't have a scope on, and name me one player above level 50 who doesn't have his primary weapon init implanted).

    Would an Ithaca be as good of a weapon if scopes affected recharge like (I think) they should?

    Let's take your numbers. You've got 495 base, and 1016 implanted. I'm going to go ahead and assume QL200 implants, triple implanted, and a TIM scope, leaving me with 629. Given 1 point per level for ability, and a base of 5 (I think?), I'm guessing you're right around level 130. Probably a little bit higher, but around there.

    Let's stick a -400 init scope on ya, and also a -800 (the tops of the current and previous scope lines). These give inits of 436 and 36.

    Let's take a QL199 Ithaca. A/R is 1/1.5. Given the current scope rules, the (modified) speeds would be 0.27/-.15, allowing you to fight a good long way into the defensive, and 0.94/-.15, again allowing you to fight at defensive positions.

    Given the new scope rules (buffs/items/implants effect recharge), we'd have A/Rs of 0.27/0.05 and 0.94/1.38.

    You see the difference, here? Ithaca crit-scoper shotty ****es will be severely affected by this. Well, anyone using anything higher than a new school scope will be affected pretty noticeably.

    I think this is a nice way to make old school scopes and new schools scopes a little more equal.

    Oh, and for the record: speed with a TIM scope, -.69/-.15 (current) and -.69/-1.88 (changed).

    You're complaining about this fix why, now?
    Gunned down the young. Now old, crotchety, and back.

  12. #72
    You are saying to only change the recharge part of ini, and nothing else. Fact is, the game has used this ini system for the whole time it has been in retail. And you really think they won't (need to) change everything else as well if they change rch ini? Maybe weapons with 1/2.5 have damage values they have compared to other types of atk/rch because they can be scoped a lot "without" penalty. Maybe doc debuffs have such high values for -ini because it doesn't affect recharge? Every argument that is made for changing rch ini works usually just as well against it. Maybe scoping is meant to be the way to go? Any other use for that hud slot?

    Going around and changing such an important and long standing feature/game design (I really doubt it is a bug) without changing anything else would most likely break a whole lot of stuff more than it would fix.

  13. #73

    Thumbs down

    Bah.

    Confirmation/detail on inits would be nice.

    But, leave them like they are.

    You

    KNOW

    it would end up a nerf otherwise.

    You don't try to pet strange growling dogs.
    You don't walk behind horses.
    You don't try to cross a busy freeway on foot.

    Everyone knows these kind of things.
    Last edited by Mercatura; Sep 15th, 2002 at 15:42:16.
    mercatura -ae f. [trade, traffic; merchandise]

    Moved off-world and found real tradeskills...along with many other things

  14. #74
    Originally posted by Mercatura
    it would end up a nerf otherwise.
    Yes, I would also be nerfing myself. But that is the way it SHOULD work.

  15. #75
    Originally posted by Lucid Flow


    Yes, I would also be nerfing myself. But that is the way it SHOULD work.
    ^^^^^^

    I'd pretty much see it as extension of the crit nerf. The ONLY people being nerfed here are people using extremely high crit scopes.

    People getting bonuses: Docs (init debuffs more effective), init buffing classes, everyone who doesn't use heavy crit scopes.

    Yep. Nerf me, please.
    Gunned down the young. Now old, crotchety, and back.

  16. #76
    Tell me, how exactly is a scope which aids you in ensuring you hit the target going to slow down how fast your body recovers, or how quickly your weapon chambers another round? Thats what recharge is.

    Bah, screw it. No point in posting to this thread, because you two will not listen. You don't want to listen. Thats okay, I don't want to listen to you either.

  17. #77
    Prove to me recharge is "how fast your body recovers, or how quickly your weapon chambers another round." This isn't real life, don't try too hard to put the analogy in.
    Gunned down the young. Now old, crotchety, and back.

  18. #78

    Arrow

    I don't know if implants have an effect or not (I don't use init implants), but buffs and debuffs quite definitely have no effect on recharge, though it is far easier to see for debuffs.

    What's wrong with the way they work? Its just a game mechanic... Nothing appears to need fixed, as it is not even remotely clear that anything is broken. The designers presumably know how its supposed to work, let them decide. And if its supposed to work the way it does, then that will likely already have been taken into account for buffs, debuffs, scopes etc.
    "Do not try and catch the hamster... that's impossible. Instead only try to realize the truth... There is no hamster, only a deadbeat rollerat..."

    [Social] Means: I don't think we removed any bosses because of bad pathing...there wouldnt be any left if we did :P

    AO Character Skill Emulator and Character Parser and AO Implant Layout Helper

  19. #79
    Originally posted by Darkbane
    What's wrong with the way they work? Its just a game mechanic... Nothing appears to need fixed, as it is not even remotely clear that anything is broken. The designers presumably know how its supposed to work, let them decide. And if its supposed to work the way it does, then that will likely already have been taken into account for buffs, debuffs, scopes etc.
    Thats not true. There have been many skills that have been changed over the course of the game because they haven't worked as intended. The problem arises because there are assumptions made and such things are very hard to test.

    Buffs, Implants and certain items SHOULD help with the recharge of a weapon the same way it effects attack. That is a given. Conversly, debuffs should effect recharge the same way they effect attack.

    Am I the only sane one to think that this makes perfect sense?

  20. #80
    Nah. The idea that buffs etc. should effect both attack and recharge makes perfect sense to me too.

    But hey, we must be crazy.
    Gunned down the young. Now old, crotchety, and back.

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