How to factor Armor Class and Health Points in PVP? Just and idea

[Ciggie]

So this game was mostly about PVM, as SIl has stated so many times in his posts. But it took the turn for moer and more PVP over time, specially with LE and Sil as game manager. All ok so far.
This is probably the only game that factors HP as a liability, a disadvantage in PVP, due to % HP damage caps. This is probably the only game that totally ignores armor in both PVP and PVM, where the amount of damage reduced per AC is ridiculously low.
Now, since this game was PVM, most of its mechanics were aimed for it, and over time, the average player became stronger than what he started with with the original game, till now some profs can solo stuff that im sure FC didnt have in mind, and it would be easier with each new patch. WHere this is leading is supposed to be PVP balance, and while us PVPers are happy about that (mostly ), PVM hardcore players are sad since they find no more challenge in the game for them in many occasions.
Now, about bringing back HP and AC back into an acceptable status in PVP, since in PVM higher HP and better ACs are a preference, what I would like to suggest is the following:

1- Make ACs factor into the amount of damage a player can do on u according to the following logic. The more AC u have in a given damage type, the less damage you should take in that damage type. This is very logical, so what I suggest is make the damage cap calculate with the %age of skill a player has in his weapon skill and AR, the normal way it is calculated now, versus the AC of the given damage type. Say the attacker has 2k weapon skill and 300 AR for a total of 2300 AR, and the defender has 10k ACs in the attackers dmg type, that would make the attacker hit for a maximum of 23% only, whereas a player with 6k AC in that damage type will get hit for 38.33%.
2- Make HP factor into the amount of damage a player can do on u according to the following logic. The moer health points you have, the more hits you should be able to survive, which is usually the case in both PVM and PVP. Making HP a disadvantage is the many specials anyone can use in PVP, from hot swapping to the profs with intrinsic multi-special weapons. Even with 30% caps, many people still get hit for over 4k dmg all the way to 7k or 8k, depending on prof. Calculating HP versus special hits in such a way that more and more HP will be an advantage, and not a disadvantage. The more HP you have the more you survive zergs with specials, if they are calculated using the above AC idea.

Now, most people will say that they have spent countless days and months twinking their toons to match the current game mechanics, or that their armor set is geared towars AR and evades not towards AC, what I can say is with all changes, many of us adapted, found new ways to survive, whined a bit calculated a bit and were still alvie and kicking in BS.
And most of the TL7 players use OFAB and Combined, which are pretty good in AC department.
Also, this system will bring back logical components and a meaning to HP and AC, people will not be forced to be either PVP setup or PVM setup if they want to be good at what they are doing, cuz im quite sure to be good in PVP, you have to sacrifice lots of PVM capabilities.

Any thoughts are welcome, no flames please, and if you disagree clearly state why and give logical explanations.
This is just an idea, FC isnt gonna listen to me so dont start blaming me for nothing

[cleaner]

if you are suggesting the logic in PvM as well as PvP... and I understand what you are saying.

a person with 3,000 AR fighting a mob like a heckler with close to 30,000 AC, will do 10% of the damage that they'd do against no AC?

would do 318.8-403.8 w/ a crit of 722.5 damage if they used a weapon with a 2400 AR cap and that did 375-475 (375) damage, such as the Kyr'Ozch Sword - Type 112

[Betos2]

No challenge in PvM? Tell me, has RK1 killed the Artillery Commander yet? Still, AC (armor, not the mob) is completely messed up. Just look at enge, FC keeps giving us more and more AC because it simply doesn't matter how much we have.

[Ciggie]

if you are suggesting the logic in PvM as well as PvP... and I understand what you are saying.

a person with 3,000 AR fighting a mob like a heckler with close to 30,000 AC, will do 10% of the damage that they'd do against no AC?

would do 318.8-403.8 w/ a crit of 722.5 damage if they used a weapon with a 2400 AR cap and that did 375-475 (375) damage, such as the Kyr'Ozch Sword - Type 112

well actually i dont think i mentioned that FC could use the same system in PVM as well, for example right now as it is, I dont think 30% is the caps in PVM, whereas it is the caps in PVP. so ya, keep PVM as it is, this system will only give PVPers the incentive to have more HP and ACs, thus giving them also some survivability in cases they have to PVM with org, friends, Alb, APF or w/e, rather than stick to say 11k HP and get killed in 2 hits.

No challenge in PvM? Tell me, has RK1 killed the Artillery Commander yet? Still, AC (armor, not the mob) is completely messed up. Just look at enge, FC keeps giving us more and more AC because it simply doesn't matter how much we have.

Well lemme reiterate, mostly no challenge I dont call beating a cocoon room with 1 220 MA, 1 203 doc and 1 217 engi challenge anymore, or doing Alb with 2 agents, 1 doc and 1 sol challenge. That is another issue though, as is your Art. Commander an exception to the rule. Im sure pretty soon even that will be beaten, and iirc it was beaten in RK2.

Please stick to topic, dont argue with me if PVM is a challenge or anything, try to add something constructive to the HP and AC proposed system.

[FoolishManX]

I agree that something needs to be done about AC because at the moment, it is almost useless. This is mostly due to broken mechanics like how powerful special attacks are in the game. A person with 20,000 AC in everything will still get capped with AS assuming he has sensible HP for example.

But lets be realistic, AO is 5 years old now. There is no way that FC will change the mechanics of AC this late in the game without a major overhaul in the game itself. There are too many things wrong with AO currently and FC is trying their best to slowly mold AO into something most people are comfortable with. Basically, they are making changes at the moment to please the majority player base.

Don't get me wrong, I like these faster patches and FC is finally fixing bugs and problems that have plagued AO for years and years. I agree with Cig that ACs should have a more important role in the game, especially in PvP but it might be too late at this point.

Could you imagine 'what if setups' though? HP setup, evade setup, AR setup, AC setup?

[bungerman]

I agree that something needs to be done about AC because at the moment, it is almost useless. This is mostly due to broken mechanics like how powerful special attacks are in the game. A person with 20,000 AC in everything will still get capped with AS assuming he has sensible HP for example.

But lets be realistic, AO is 5 years old now. There is no way that FC will change the mechanics of AC this late in the game without a major overhaul in the game itself. There are too many things wrong with AO currently and FC is trying their best to slowly mold AO into something most people are comfortable with. Basically, they are making changes at the moment to please the majority player base.

Don't get me wrong, I like these faster patches and FC is finally fixing bugs and problems that have plagued AO for years and years. I agree with Cig that ACs should have a more important role in the game, especially in PvP but it might be too late at this point.

Could you imagine 'what if setups' though? HP setup, evade setup, AR setup, AC setup?

with the more recent changes i think now is the best time that FC would fix AC, bump for this cause

[Ciggie]

necro O.o

[Mekh]

necro O.o

Not exactly less relevant, now only a few months later...

Bump for your idea...

[Loucretia]

Even with 30% caps, many people still get hit for over 4k dmg all the way to 7k or 8k, depending on prof.

Enfs can still get hit for 13k/15k if they max hp - not like any do anymore..

[kuznechik]

bump for more HP = better and some use of ACs... I have like 3-4k more ACs than I need for any pvp encounter except maybe MAs.

[Elsix]

Once made a test. Had a 25k AC'es (on engi). Got same PvM hits like if it was 10k. Why?
Then I came to PvP - arena test. Maybe %crits is less then usual, but that huge AC'es does not affect damage on me. Why?

Changing AC mechanics is not that hard as it seems. Just remove AC efficiency downfall on high amounts, and increase AC efficiency over certain cap.

[Xkeeper]

this is sort of a cool logic, but then what would happen to soldiers???? wouldnt get hit at all due to constant high AC´s and Reflects, or any player with high AC´s and Rrfe for all it matters, i agree that ac can be pretty much useless in some ocasions, but cant compare to oher games that Armor Rate has a good percentage of DMG reduction against a lower or equal lvl opponent, this would make pvp in AO last ages.

AO mechanics really need to be reviewed, i agree, but gotta be thought more so it wont just screw all things up worse then they already are

[kuznechik]

Well, if ACs won't be improved - don't feed us with it...
I guess keepers will be uber happy if their special helmet and all of their type1 procs will give them some parry-riposte buffs. Parry and riposte are in keeper' toolset.