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Thread: Ethics

  1. #1

    Ethics

    Over the past months, I have seen players come and players go. Sometimes I know why, even though none of us will ever know all the reasons why. Some just leave, others cry like babies, some blame anyone they can find, and shout a few expletives, making the rest of us think "Good riddance, don't let the door hit you on the way out." But in each case, every person I have seen leave, bar none, has someone on their side, and someone not. No one ever knows all the details. And in each case, Funcom almost always takes the heat for it. Is it deserved? I cannot say, but if it is, it may be as much as their fault as those of players.

    When I was asked by an ARK about my recent petition, I gave all 5's. Why? Because my question was handled efficiently and courteously. Was it solved? No. BUT, the ARK made me feel like s/he actually cared about me and my problem. I did not get a ton of useless canned scripted answers, I felt like I was being taken care of. Customer service is NOT just fixing problems, it is serving a customer. I realised there was nothing the ARK could do, but an honest effort was made, and I was satisfied. He did the best he could with what he had. So yeay for FC, you did well.

    But recently something else has bothered me more and more, and it seems to be getting worse. That is the inconsistencies that I see over and over, and I cannot explain why. One player gets to change sides, another does not. One player gets a nickname change, another does not. One player gets banned, another does not. And yes, we cannot know the details, but speaking to some of them I basically got "Oh I just asked for this, it depends on which GM you get." Hmmmm.

    Recently people are getting other people in trouble for supposed "favours." I do not agree with this. Other upstanding people are getting their accounts banned for seemingly silly reasons. Did it have to do with the ARK or GM they got? I sincerely hope not. Now I hear talk of "FC is afraid to admit they made a mistake," and "FC did it again." Well, I know 2 things for certain:
    1) FC do make mistakes, they are people just like us and
    2) FC are not the ONLY ones at Fault here.

    Now before you start yelling at me, consider this...if you do not want to be accused, do not arouse su****ion. Showing up in the wrong places at the "right" times can do this. Visiting people who are su****ious can too. So can whining, making threats, etc.

    Sometimes though, people DO get accused of things they did not do, and this is a serious problem. The problem I see is so many unwritten rules. How can we follow them when they are not in writing anywhere? But that and the inconsistencies I see are making things VERY frustrating. I said once before (I hate quoting myself):

    Ignorance of the law is no excuse, but interpretation and arbitrary enforcement of unwritten laws is a travesty.

    I was told recently by a GM, who will remain nameless:

    "Cat> Where can I go to read all these rules?

    GM> well there is some rules of conduct on our webpage, and there is also the EULA. Our guidelinse will be pointed out more specific in not too long."

    So does this mean that we can be punished for unwritten laws? Well yes and no. If the boards are not required to play AO, and someone is not a genius about irc and message boards, and just wants to play, (or even if they do,) is that enough? We have to do the best we can, since AO seems to exist in its entirety online, and this is still new by today’s standards. We are still tied too much to paper and pen, ask any laywer, so this is pushing the envelope. Can we be required to read webpages and message boards and even email for that matter? This does not apply to laws about common decency so much, they may vary, and common sense is an oxymoron. But “in-game” laws are a problem, and my reasons why will follow (apologies in advance).

    While I do not understand computers and programs as well as I’d like, I have a bit of an idea that I want to consider, and yes this is a big stretch, but I asked some programmers about it. The confines of this environment are absolute, there are no shades of grey at all, no guesswork, computers do not make mistakes, people do. If there is an error in the “code” it is there because someone PUT it there, there is no blame as such. This is a computer game and like ANY game, people will want to explore it's limits, to see how far they can go “outside the lines.” But in fact, you really can never cross the lines, because either the program allows it or not, period (absolute). And yes, I understand this is a REAL stretch, but if you really want to get technical, you could even try to say that means that there are in the end, no exploits at all, because the game allowed it, and the programmers did not fix it. Can it really be an exploit IF it is available to every single player in the game under the same conditions? Hmmm. There is almost no need for an "honour system" if something fails, its the program it self, we are explorers, curious, it is a human trait.

    In the real world, this does not apply. And FC have to know that no one is perfect. But some standard of consistency HAS to be reached, for the sake of integrity if nothing else.
    Last edited by Cz; Sep 4th, 2002 at 22:59:56.
    "Ignorance is the greatest evil we will ever face" . -Dr. James Cone, ca 1990 CE


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  2. #2
    I am not blaming anyone here, I just want to see some consistency for the sake of us all...
    "Ignorance is the greatest evil we will ever face" . -Dr. James Cone, ca 1990 CE


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  3. #3
    Well spoken Cat
    Hermy
    Shadelore
    Retired.

  4. #4
    This has been mentioned before, and I'm pretty sure they're working on some GM guidelines now for some consistency.

    And the people rejoiced

  5. #5

    Thumbs up

    what can I say.. well said Cat

  6. #6

    The problem is...

    Right hand dont know what left hand is doing.

    My recent problem was that our Guild Leader (Isimazku) left game and since most of the RL friends who made AntiGuardians had already left (me included) he didnt see any reason to pass lead to anyone, after all, none of the original AntiGuardians were no longer playing (or were in other guilds).

    I came back and found myself in "ghost guild". I thought that what the heck, lets petition GM and ask him to give me the lead as he can clearly see that there are no other active players anymore in this guild and that leader has quit.

    The GM came and flat out refused based on the reasons given elsewhere (after that conversation thought mind you) where FC states that leader can do whatever he wishes with guild and can pass or not pass lead to others when he leave.

    Ok. I can understand the reasons given and accept the fact. After all I am not very happy of the thought that after all of us original AntiGuardians had left (we use that guild name in other games too) some we invited sometime would assume our guild and name and use it like he sees fit.

    Ok whats the gripe here then?

    The fact that when I talked about this to others I knew in game they said:

    Oh, well just petition again. It depends which GM you happen to get and in what mood he is. I know cases where lead has been passed to other in similar cases.

    ...

    Perfect example of FC inconsistency here.

    It really seems to depend which GM you get and is he in good mood or not. Nothing to do with "rules and regulations" if they even exist

    This game is full of unwritten rules of which no player can know even half. Problem seems to be that GM's dont know them either...

    Wanna hear more bad judgement calls from GM's? This is short version but very true in spirit.

    ///

    You are being warned of exploitation. You cast team heals which dont agro monsters as they are supposed to. You are not allowed to use team heals that way.

    You ask what is this way that they are talking since there is only one way you can use team heals?

    They answer that by casting team heal to yourself you are avoiding agroing monsters and hence by exploiting.

    Then you educate them that even if you target monster, another player or whoever the nano in question will target yourself (caster) and there is no secret way you can cast it to avoid agro since there is only ONE way to cast it.

    Then they go like "oh? umm... right..." Well you are not allowed to use team heals since they dont agro. We will fix this soon <tm> and before that you will exploit if you use it.

    We laughed pretty hard and ignored that fool (GM). If we would have complied with that insane order we wouldnt have been able to use team heal and do exp for over a month (the time it took them to fix it from our warning).

    Wanna know the name of that GM and the name of the GM who is currently hot in the topics and compare those names

    Daquis and chars

  7. #7
    No need to mention names on the GM as we already know who they are. And they don't like to be hung here on boards. Understandable, but sometimes they need to realise that they are not the superior force that can whip around the people playing the games. If someone make a mistake, correct it and apologise. This is called human. Noone expects perfect superhumans as GMs, but we expect consistancy and people correcting what they did wrong.

    Sad pathetic people that try to cover their wrong in new lies. You really wonder if persons like that are competent for the work.

    Good post Cat as usual.
    ~Lone

  8. #8
    Sounds like AO related stuff to me

    Good read Cat, Thanks for writing it.

  9. #9
    Cat?

    /me prostrates.
    /DaveDread (D.A.V.E.D.R.E.A.D.: Digital Artificial Violence and Exploration Device/Replicant Engineered for Assassination and Destruction mohahaha)

    200 Opifex Clanner Gimp - Dinged in Style! (dimached a Virulent Minibull) Finally got my head straight, nothing like a goat helmet to get you in shape again. Oh, and those marks on my forehead (yah, still visible through the helmet, duh)... It was a Motorcycle baby. Really. Ran me over in West Athens while I was working on my tan. Think I look bad? You should see the biker.

  10. #10
    GJ Cat
    Katelin Arinia Rhees
    Level 220 Enforcer
    Former Enforcer Professional
    Former President of the late Midnight Reveries
    Account Created: 2001-10-08; Account Expired: 2005-02-19

  11. #11
    Originally posted by Noer
    No need to mention names on the GM as we already know who they are. And they don't like to be hung here on boards. Understandable, but sometimes they need to realise that they are not the superior force that can whip around the people playing the games. If someone make a mistake, correct it and apologise. This is called human. Noone expects perfect superhumans as GMs, but we expect consistancy and people correcting what they did wrong.

    Sad pathetic people that try to cover their wrong in new lies. You really wonder if persons like that are competent for the work.

    Good post Cat as usual.
    Indeed, especially the feeling of ' superiority', whipping around the players as they find suit. Seems -some- forget this is not a free - of - charge mmorpg, but everyone is actually a paying costumer, and the past months have shown unacceptable behavior. While this might be totally wrong, it is the image we the community have of the gms, mostly because all the cases which went wrong reach the boards and the proper handled ones dont, but even when so obviously wrong there is no apolagy or change of decision which results in the flawed(?) image...
    Georg 218 doc
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  12. #12
    Extremely well spoken Cat

  13. #13

    Question

    Well in this case, for me anyway, the GM in question has nothing but my highest respect. I was treated fairly and given an honest "I don't know" when I asked about something outside the GM's scope of knowledge. That sort of thing is not the issue, and yes there are some EXCELLENT GMs.

    And As Reality said, the GM did the right thing too:

    "This has been mentioned before, and I'm pretty sure they're working on some GM guidelines now for some consistency."

    I cannot avoid some sarcasm, as police are people too, but although they do not have to attend law school, they DO all have to go to the same "Basic Law Enforcement Training" school before they can join the police force...but then again, they don't make the laws, they just enforce them...hm
    "Ignorance is the greatest evil we will ever face" . -Dr. James Cone, ca 1990 CE


    Available for Weddings, Mediations, Treaties, Celebrations, and Hugs...
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  14. #14
    Great post, Cat.


    I will be the first to agree that inconsistency must go. Everybody must be treated the same, no matter what GM (or ARK) that handles the petition, and also no matter what level, guild or friends inside Funcom they might have.

    We have had many cases of inconsistency in the past. We have such cases still. And I'm sure we're going to have them in the future too. As you say, Cat, we are people just like you. We do make mistakes, and I have no illusion of us never doing mistakes again.

    However, we do have an obligation to improve, and make things right. If you have any case of inconsistency or favorism, please e-mail me about it. I will bring it to the people who needs to do something about it, and have a chat with them and see what we can do.


    Unwritten rules is another matter, and a very important one. It is not required to read the bulletin board, or be in IRC, to play Anarchy Online, and we do not expect everybody to have seen an issue that has been posted here. I believe our most efficient channel is the launcher pages, though I can be wrong about that.

    Again, if you have questions about unwritten rules - or, by all means, the written rules - please contact us and let us know. We will always try to make the rules clearer, so there is little room for doubt.

    Some rules can never be fully written on paper though. A judgement call is sometimes needed. One example is harassment and disruptive gameplay, like kill-stealing. I'm sure you can see that these areas have shades of grey, and will always be like that. This is where we - all of us - need to trust people to make the right desicion. And, of course, we will have to build that trust. It's not a switch we can just turn on.


    To start about exploits, I will make one comparison - good or bad: Most cars allow you to go way above the speed limits. Does that make speeding legal? Does that make it harmless? Tha fact that it is possible doesn't make it allowed, or a good thing.

    We have made a definition of exploits based on the intention of the game system. This too has grey areas, and we often need to take issue by issue and make a ruling about it. Each ruling sets a standard for the ones to come.

    Our definition of exploits exists because we believe it to be necessary. I personally think it helps to provide a level playing ground, and give everybody the same opportunities. Humans always bend rules, and stretch the limits. Sometimes they make new discoveries that do not benefit the game, but actually harms it, and we must do something.

    And again, consistency is a key factor. We must be consistent. We all agree on that.


    I will make another reply to comment on the other posts in the thread.


    If you want to e-mail me about anything, my address is thomasj@funcom.com. Think I might as well add that to my signature.
    Last edited by Cz; Sep 3rd, 2002 at 20:46:55.

  15. #15
    On the issue of guild leadership the rules have been written for quite some time. But it was not until it was brough to my attention, however, that I had a chat with the Director of Customer Services and we agreed that I would post about it on the bulletin board.

    I know that Customer Service is working on putting all such rules together in one place, and will try make sure this one makes it into the document.

    The rule is that the organisation 'belongs' to the leader, and we can not take it away from him/her if he/she decided to leave the game without turning it over to somebody else.

    An exception is made if the leader is banned, I believe, as he/she then had no opportunity - no time - to transfer leadership to another guild member.


    I mentioned inconsistency in my previous post, but would like to add 'attitude' to the things I would like you to e-mail me about.

    If you feel you are simply being viewed as inferior, or otherwise feel the GM personally - as opposed to the policies he/she represents - is a problem, do contact us, please. We will bring this first to the GM, and - if needed - to the Director of Customer Service.

  16. #16
    Cz wrote:

    "...or otherwise feel the GM personally - as opposed to the policies he/she represents - is a problem, do contact us, please..."

    Well your GM's seem to have a right to be the jury, the judge and the executioner all in one.

    You sure I wont get banned with some lame ass excuse when I will bring it to your attention what I think of certain GM and you go and tell him that?

    I am pretty sure (if I were a GM) that I could find some bannable offence by some obscure ruling from almost every char in this game that is still actively playing and ban them with some lame ass excuse, especially since it seems the GM dont even have to explain himself or state the reason of banning.

    Example Demios still (to this very moment) dont know the exact reason or what got him banned. It was said it was "a bag" but not what bag and what it was inside.

    Sheesh.

    Zarch and da chars

  17. #17
    Originally posted by Cz
    To start about exploits, I will make one comparison - good or bad: Most cars allow you to go way above the speed limits. Does that make speeding legal? Does that make it harmless? Tha fact that it is possible doesn't make it allowed, or a good thing.

    We have made a definition of exploits based on the intention of the game system. This too has grey areas, and we often need to take issue by issue and make a ruling about it. Each ruling sets a standard for the ones to come.

    Our definition of exploits exists because we believe it to be necessary. I personally think it helps to provide a level playing ground, and give everybody the same opportunities. Humans always bend rules, and stretch the limits. Sometimes they make new discoveries that do not benefit the game, but actually harms it, and we must do something.
    Thank you Cz *curtseys* and I like your example of a car. It makes us have to ask, "Are you breaking the law if you don't get caught?" Sadly, there still is no real world example that can compare to the virtual world, the sense of randomness just does not exist (well not yet). Except maybe us at the keyboards at the other end of it. Even so, there is some responsibility on our part as you say. I am no programmer, and I am so clueless about game mechanics I sometimes don't even know if what I am doing is acceptable or not, until I see it mentioned in the next patch. and if you have more than one person working on a portion of it, how they interact might not become apparent till that section of the game goes "live." Then it is not I think so much the responsibility of the players. There IS an answer to this, we hopefully will see it soon... *sigh*
    "Ignorance is the greatest evil we will ever face" . -Dr. James Cone, ca 1990 CE


    Available for Weddings, Mediations, Treaties, Celebrations, and Hugs...
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  18. #18
    In reply to Zarch, let me first point out my definition of a GM.

    A GM - that is Genetic Manipulator in AO, Game Master in other games, I believe - is a Customer Service representative, employed by Funcom, working in-game in Anarchy Online.

    I do not consider those communicationg with customers only by e-mail to be GMs, nor do I consider the devs, or the exploits team, to be GMs.

    I'll check my definition against that of Customer Service, and correct mine if needed.


    Now, Zarch, I am sure you have very colorful phrases you would - at least sometimes - like to hand over to a Funcom employee or two. I can of course recieve those, but I will never care to bring that directly to the person in question. I might mention that "somebody was ranting at you in an e-mail to me", but that would be all. Rants are not very constructive, and usually very childish, and I care little for bringing those to anybody.

    However, if you were to send me a proper complaint, or something at least closer to that than a rant, the matter is different. I would then take it to the person in question to bring the issue up, and have a small chat. If that gets me nowhere, I might go the the person's superior, and higher again if I feel it's appropriate.

    Note that many complaints - though percieved to be aimed at a person - are really aimed at the system. Many percieved errors or bad judgements that seem to be controlled by a person are actually made in a position where the person has no choice, due to policies.

    You will never get banned for speaking your mind about a GM - or other Funcom employee - to me. There are limits of course. E.g. threaten a person with physical harm in real life, and I am sure you understand I will have to take it seriously, and deal with it in an appropriate way.


    I am pretty sure who you are talking about, and I have already spoken to several people about the issue (you included, I believe). I had word about something being worked on to clear up the specific issue you refer to, and will check up on that at work tomorrow.

    {Edited for typos and bad English. Long day... }
    Last edited by Cz; Sep 3rd, 2002 at 22:04:33.

  19. #19
    I would surely say that you are breaking the law even if you don't get caught.

    I was more waiting to get the questions whether you are breaking the law if your speedometer reads slower than actual speed, or there are no speed limit signs by the road.

    That I will think more about tomorrow, as I'm getting a bit too tired here now.

    G'night!

  20. #20
    I have done a complaint over an ARK once. He got removed - only right thing to do as he clearly herassed me. Good job and Wojan handled that nicely.

    However I made a complaint about a GM (again no need to mention names here) and how he handled the whole issue with Claire's Nullity MK2 disc that got eaten by a pet (later pets didn't accept trades, but item wasn't remibursed just for reference). The complaint was handled by asking the person himself and then he of course said "nothing happened" and I got the response "we talked to him, and he said nothing happened. Case closed." Well, that wasn't the impression of all the people present there, but could we do? Nothing. Later same GM teleports Steffani out of Camelot to please a certain group of clans and get her killed by doing so.

    Maybe you actually need to make some procedures to actually handle these complaints. For what use is a complaint if you just go and ask the GM and believes every word he said and then closes the case? He did act like an *******. He did make jokes about it all. He did spend more time having fun jumping skyhigh and running around than looking at the case about the nullity lost.

    And yes you need to put your policies online. You can't expect people to know the rules you come up with and ban for it without your customers clearly being aware of it. (ref: Demios' case)

    Another example.
    People find out that you can name a new guild same name as an old guild. In very short time "new" guilds pop up with the same names as the existing ones including a new The Council. I talked with guildleaders from some of the others that were hit by this and they told me that I could petition it and get those guilds renamed. I of course petitions, and get the "sorry we can't do that - its against the policies". Well, other guilds just got that done a few moments ago. "Sorry we can't do that. We are not allowed to do that." Well, I don't really care. If others can, why can't I. I guess I wasn't the only one with the problem as the policy got changed and the violating guilds disbanded or renamed.
    ~Lone

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